Logging Safety pilot time

[nick14]

Hi all,

I have found an interesting take on the logging I safety pilot time in a multi crew aircraft.

Take any 2 pilot jet and add a third pilot on a jumpseat, acting as safety pilot for a RATED co pilot undergoing line training under the air ops regulation. I have always logged and taught people to log this as SNY only never P2 as you are not sitting in a pilots seat.

CAP804, section 1 Part E, p13 states that you can log it as P2??

Any thoughts?

[Whopity]

CAP 804 Section 1 Part E Para 9 Case N states Pilot acting as Safety Pilot log as SNY however; Case F(ii) states if acting as a pliot supervising Co-pilot activities you may log it as P2.

[nick14]

I looked at N and all references to safety pilot seem to be concerned with someone with medical issues or for simulated IFR. No reference is made to multi-crew aircraft which seems to imply its a supervisory role.

[Whopity]

I think the answer is quite simple, if you are there to supervise you have an operational role and are not technically a "safety pilot" who is there to take over the role should it prove necessary. Therefore; as a supervisor its P2 and as a safety pilot, whatever aircraft it may be, its SNY.

[Crankshaft]

Not flying on CAP's but elsewhere in JAA-land, and we do the same.

Logging it as P2 because:

The RHS pilot is type rated but not yet qualified by operator to be SIC until released for being so. That means without third pilot on jump seat, the flight can't depart legally. The only qualified SIC is the pilot on the jump seat, therefore s/he will log it as P2.

To be compared by the line checkers, who is not required to be onboard for the flight to be legal. They are not part of operating crew and therefore no flight time being logged. And funnily enough not even counted as FDP (only DP).

Every operator has to keep a log of each pilots. If you are unsure you could just ask for a printout and see what they logged on it.

[nick14]

Is it acceptable to have 2 FOs logging P2?

My other concern is that with a large number of hours on SPA say instructing and some safety pilot time on the jet someone could be put on a command course........

[FlyingOfficerKite]

Hi Nick

I have always logged 'training first officer' time as SNY - in accordance with the accepted practice within the particular airline.

CAP 804 does indeed state at Section 1, Part E, p 13 F(ii): 'Pilot supervising Co-pilot activities' may be logged as 'P2'.

However, CAP 804 does not define the term 'pilot' in this instance - for example, does the term mean 'training captain', 'captain', 'commander', 'co-pilot', 'other type-rated pilot' or any or all of these?

CAP 804 Section 1, Part E, p 15, 10.2 states, amongst other things, that a Co-pilot may not log as flight time any periods during which he does not occupy a pilot’s seat.

This statement contradicts F(ii) from a 'training'/supernumerary co-pilot's perspective.

I have occupied the jump-seat as a supernumerary/safety pilot who, in the normal course of events, would not expect to take any part in the operating of the aircraft.

The RHS pilot is type rated but not yet qualified by operator to be SIC until released for being so. That means without third pilot on jump seat, the flight can't depart legally. The only qualified SIC is the pilot on the jump seat, therefore s/he will log it as P2.

The co-pilot/first officer is licensed to fly the aircraft - licence, medical, type rating (including base training) all valid/completed.

It is an operator's requirement to set a certain number of sectors of line training. The flight being conducted by a training captain (TRI) who is supervising the licensed first officer.

The 'training first officer' is usually present during the first four or so sectors - not throughout the whole of the line training process - to provide additional help during initial line training and to assist if for some reason the trainee is unable to cope, for example - not a legal requirement for a 'training first officer' on all sectors prior to the final line check. I used to supervise re-fueling, do the walk round, help with the cockpit workload and the like to leave the training captain free to spend time teaching the new first officer procedures during turn rounds and create additional learning time whilst airborne.

I have always logged and taught people to log this as SNY only never P2 as you are not sitting in a pilots seat.

and

Is it acceptable to have 2 FOs logging P2?

There was no question of my role being 'P2' as there was a licensed co-pilot occupying the right hand seat and I had no direct input in the operating of the aircraft. As you say, can you have two pilots claiming 'P2' - I think not at the same time!

I'd be a bit surprised if any other UK operators work in a different way as I've fulfilled the role of 'training' first officer within several UK airlines and all operated in a similar manner.

Having said, and experienced, all of the above we are now in the brave New World of EASA and I find it hard to comprehend exactly when a 'pilot' would be supervising the activities of a co-pilot and therefore claim 'P2' - training captain claims 'PIC', trainee first officer 'P2', supernumerary/training first officer traditionally 'SNY', so why another 'P2'?

I must say I've never come across two pilots acting at the same time as 'P2' (or in any other capacity at the same time) and find it difficult to reconcile within CAP 804 when there are apparently several conflicting definitions?

FOK

[S-Works]

How do you work that one out? Command courses are a result of the time on type not the number of hours total.

[nick14]

Not everywhere. There is a time on type requirement but it isn't the majority of the hours and apparently all of that could be as a safety pilot......

[FlyingOfficerKite]

Command courses are a result of the time on type not the number of hours total.

Usually a combination of both (plus other factors, naturally).

But you both know that.

Years ago I often flew with new direct entry Captains with less hours on type than me (often converted from another jet type, so maybe only type rating course plus line training time on type - many thousands of total hours though).

There is a time on type requirement but it isn't the majority of the hours

Yep, usually the case.

You both also know that.

and apparently all of that could be as a safety pilot......

Highly unlikely - but you both know that as well.

= no argument, surely?!

FOK

[Whopity]

CAP 804 Section 1, Part E, p 15, 10.2 states, amongst other things, that a Co-pilot may not log as flight time any periods during which he does not occupy a pilot’s seat.

The reference is to the "designated" Co-Pilot.

A pilot supervising Co-pilot activities is a designated "supervisor" and not the designated "Co-pilot" and trherefore may in accordance with F(ii) log that time as 'P2'.

[AvEnthusiast]

What about trainee pilot who is to start line training, but is just sitting as an oberver in the jumpseat so he can further move to the RHS for his line training, can he log this observation flights as SNY or something just for renewal of license.

[Whopity]

Anyone can log SNY; it has no value with regard to experience or for renewal purposes. It means you are above the numbers required and are not counted.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

Whopity

A Happy New Year to you.

Interesting.

I've never experienced anyone who was not 'at the controls' being able to log time in a capacity of flight crew.

All my jump seat flights, whether it be observing or 'training/supervising' have all been logged as SNY and that was always accepted by the various airlines - which is the point of this Thread and reflects the comments made by nick14 in his opening Post.

FOK

[nick14]

It is odd although if it is acceptable to the authority then that's all that is required.

I will have to ask the boss and the authority to see what the consensus is.

Happy new year all

[Crankshaft]

Don't complicate this!
Just put in your logbook whatever your operator is putting down in their log. Remember that SNY hours generally doesn't count towards your annual/monthly/weekly accumulated FDP.
If your operator logs one thing and you log something different, you will end up with a discrepancy. You really need to make sure you have the same records as your company as there's a mutual responsibility for keeping legal on FTL's.

The co-pilot/first officer is licensed to fly the aircraft - licence, medical, type rating (including base training) all valid/completed.

It does not matter if you're licensed to fly it. You are still not qualified to fill whatever position (PIC/SIC) on that particular flight unless you've been signed off for it by your operator.
A direct entry captain is unarguably both licensed and competent, but he can still not act as PIC until he's been line trained and line checked by said operator.
A F/O (even a SFO) can still not be the SIC unless hes been signed off to fly without the safety pilot. Yes, he's the one manipulating the controls, but hes not the SIC. That privilege is filled by the safety pilot.

Also remember that whatever your company is doing, that's what's agreed/approved by the authority. If you depart from this, no matter how much sense it may makes to do it differently, you are effectivly in violence of the procedure.
If the procedure is for a pilot to be officially signed off by operator for something he's already licensed to do, then that has to be done that way. If procedure is to log flight hours in a particualar way, then it has to be done that way.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

You are still not qualified to fill whatever position (PIC/SIC) on that particular flight unless you've been signed off for it by your operator.

So, if a 'supervising' first officer is present for the first 4 sectors or so, how does the above comment reconcile with the fact that the first officer being trained is not 'signed off by the operator' until the line training is complete - which will take a minimum of 20 sectors and probably more for an inexperienced pilot - with no safety pilot/supervising first officer present for the majority of the training? Signing off to fly without a safety pilot is one thing, but being signed off as 'qualified'/line training complete surely quite another?

In my experience the First Officer under training has always booked the time as P2 or PICU/S and the supervising first officer as SNY - including me during my early days with my respective airlines. The operators have always been happy with that.

Is this situation a 'European' rather than UK practice?

FOK

[nick14]

An FO under line training should not really be logging PICUS, P2 fine but I doubt that all the duties of the PIC are being performed if under training.

[Crankshaft]

So, if a 'supervising' first officer is present for the first 4 sectors or so, how does the above comment reconcile with the fact that the first officer being trained is not 'signed off by the operator' until the line training is complete

Pardon me if I was not clear enough here. All airlines I've been flying for have had som way to sign off to fly without safety pilot. I did not mean a line check, mostly it's just ticking a box in the training file saying something like "released from safety pilot".

[FlyingOfficerKite]

Crankshaft

Ah, that's understood.

Nick14

I'll check my logbooks, but I'm sure I booked PICUS on all line training handling sectors?

KR

FOK