How to log Copilot time on a Single Pilot Aircraft without Type Rating
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: slowenia
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How to log Copilot time on a Single Pilot Aircraft without Type Rating
Hi guys,
Maybe some of you know the answer to my questions. The Forum and Google didn't, even though there are some posts concerning my subject but unfort. do not answer my question.
Pre-Info: I am holding a fATPL and NO Type Rating.
In 2010, I was "acting" as a Copilot on the Single Pilot Aricraft Cessna 340, on which no Type Rating is required. I never did a Differential Training on this plane and just acted as a Radio Operator and adjusted Power during climb and approach.
My question now: Can I log these hours according to JAR-FCL or isn't that possible? And if I can, HOW do I log them? Dual? Copilot?
Once, I was also asked to join an IFR flight on an Archer because the A/P wasn't able to hold altitude. So according to the laws, another pilot, who has a radio license, has to join that flight for safety reasons. Can I also log these hours? And if yes, HOW can I log them?
Thanks in advance!
Bleed Air
Maybe some of you know the answer to my questions. The Forum and Google didn't, even though there are some posts concerning my subject but unfort. do not answer my question.
Pre-Info: I am holding a fATPL and NO Type Rating.
In 2010, I was "acting" as a Copilot on the Single Pilot Aricraft Cessna 340, on which no Type Rating is required. I never did a Differential Training on this plane and just acted as a Radio Operator and adjusted Power during climb and approach.
My question now: Can I log these hours according to JAR-FCL or isn't that possible? And if I can, HOW do I log them? Dual? Copilot?
Once, I was also asked to join an IFR flight on an Archer because the A/P wasn't able to hold altitude. So according to the laws, another pilot, who has a radio license, has to join that flight for safety reasons. Can I also log these hours? And if yes, HOW can I log them?
Thanks in advance!
Bleed Air
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You cant log it towards the experience requirements for the issue or revalidation of a licence or rating.
At best if you want to keep a note of it put it in the supernumary column. It is just memory time, nothing more.
At best if you want to keep a note of it put it in the supernumary column. It is just memory time, nothing more.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Cranfield UK
Age: 70
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Logging
Stand by for a barrage... not from me though,
Unless PIC was an instructor and you received instruction then you are effectively a passenger. Safety pilot is not a status that attracts anything unless you shared PIC.
P2 is for multi crew types and Dual is under instruction.
Your gain is the experience but does not assist you in hours for a logbook.
I cannot see any other option but I wait to see the replies...
Unless PIC was an instructor and you received instruction then you are effectively a passenger. Safety pilot is not a status that attracts anything unless you shared PIC.
P2 is for multi crew types and Dual is under instruction.
Your gain is the experience but does not assist you in hours for a logbook.
I cannot see any other option but I wait to see the replies...
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh for gods sake. You are now asking a different question.
Put it simply. If you are flying in an aircraft certified as a Single Pilot Aircraft that aircraft only has a SINGLE pilot. You cant log anything towards the experience requirements for the issue or revalidation of as licence or rating. You did not have a type rating for the aircraft and were not under instruction. Therefore you can't log any countable time. By all means put it in your logbook as memory time if that floats your boat, but otherwise the time is meaningless.
For aircraft operated under AOC arrangements that are certified for single pilot operations but require 2 crew under local regulatory arrangments then what you log is agreed with the overseeing CAA.
So to put it as clearly as possible. In the case you have stated at the start of this thread the time you have mentioned is not loggable by you in anyway that will count towards the issue or revalidation of a rating or licence.
Is that clear enough?
Put it simply. If you are flying in an aircraft certified as a Single Pilot Aircraft that aircraft only has a SINGLE pilot. You cant log anything towards the experience requirements for the issue or revalidation of as licence or rating. You did not have a type rating for the aircraft and were not under instruction. Therefore you can't log any countable time. By all means put it in your logbook as memory time if that floats your boat, but otherwise the time is meaningless.
For aircraft operated under AOC arrangements that are certified for single pilot operations but require 2 crew under local regulatory arrangments then what you log is agreed with the overseeing CAA.
So to put it as clearly as possible. In the case you have stated at the start of this thread the time you have mentioned is not loggable by you in anyway that will count towards the issue or revalidation of a rating or licence.
Is that clear enough?
The Cessna 340 is a class of aeroplane (MEP), not a type . However it is pressurised.
If you had a valid MEP rating, and had difference training for the aircraft systems, and it was being operated on an AOC, and you were qualified under the AOC to fly it, and the autopilot was U/S making a second pilot a legal requirement for AOC work, then and only then,you could probably log the time.
However, as you can see there are a lot of 'ands' .If it is an AOC operation, speak to the flight ops inspector for his opinion.
If you had a valid MEP rating, and had difference training for the aircraft systems, and it was being operated on an AOC, and you were qualified under the AOC to fly it, and the autopilot was U/S making a second pilot a legal requirement for AOC work, then and only then,you could probably log the time.
However, as you can see there are a lot of 'ands' .If it is an AOC operation, speak to the flight ops inspector for his opinion.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: In hope...
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This issue has affected me too (I found no possible way of logging 15-ish such hours other than as SNY time), and while researching I found this document which pretty much killed the issue for me:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FOD201021.pdf
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FOD201021.pdf
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why is it an 'issue'? You were a passenger. You want to log time in the back of a Ryanair 737 just because you are a pilot and would like to think you could be called on when that much desired call comes over the tannoy - 'is there a pilot on board'...... 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: In hope...
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, so perhaps "issue" was poor word choice, however one might equally ask why you are getting so worked up about this "matter"?
Much like, I imagine, the OP I am recently qualified and looking to gain experience. A search through this forum will reveal that and a number of other facts.
After qualifying I have found work at a small operator who fly single pilot aircraft rather than spending money on a TR as I want to experience and would happily work in the realm of "hands-on" flying.
On occasion I have been fortunate enough to be taken on some company flights, all of them positioning and not operated as AOC flights, and to have been allowed to control the aircraft or otherwise contribute to that flight. I have never, in the sense of sitting looking out the window, just been along for the ride, but as you quite rightly point out (and which I have not contested nor claimed to the contrary) according to the law that's exactly what I was doing.
On each of those fights I have been shown things by more experienced pilots or experienced issues and seen them being resolved. I contributed to the planning of the flights, in fact usually I did it and the PIC checked it, and tried to take as much from the experience as possible. In short I tried and feel I suceeded in learning something.
Now, being newly qualified I wanted to check whether I could "claim" any of this experience by logging it as time and not simply SNY, and as I alluded to above, my instincts were correct and I cannot therefore no record of these flights exist in my logbook. I am not falsifying experience, I am not claiming something which did not happen and I am not trying to defraud anyone. I am low hours and want all the experience I can get; turns out I can't have those hours.
That is why this, to some of us, it is an issue, matter, quandary or query.
Much like, I imagine, the OP I am recently qualified and looking to gain experience. A search through this forum will reveal that and a number of other facts.
After qualifying I have found work at a small operator who fly single pilot aircraft rather than spending money on a TR as I want to experience and would happily work in the realm of "hands-on" flying.
On occasion I have been fortunate enough to be taken on some company flights, all of them positioning and not operated as AOC flights, and to have been allowed to control the aircraft or otherwise contribute to that flight. I have never, in the sense of sitting looking out the window, just been along for the ride, but as you quite rightly point out (and which I have not contested nor claimed to the contrary) according to the law that's exactly what I was doing.
On each of those fights I have been shown things by more experienced pilots or experienced issues and seen them being resolved. I contributed to the planning of the flights, in fact usually I did it and the PIC checked it, and tried to take as much from the experience as possible. In short I tried and feel I suceeded in learning something.
Now, being newly qualified I wanted to check whether I could "claim" any of this experience by logging it as time and not simply SNY, and as I alluded to above, my instincts were correct and I cannot therefore no record of these flights exist in my logbook. I am not falsifying experience, I am not claiming something which did not happen and I am not trying to defraud anyone. I am low hours and want all the experience I can get; turns out I can't have those hours.
That is why this, to some of us, it is an issue, matter, quandary or query.
What I find particularly sad is that in your endeavours to become a professional pilot, no doubt at considerable expense, nobody has told you what you can or can't do with your shiny new licence! What the hell do they do in 700 hours of groundschool?
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: In hope...
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Increasingly they put you in front of a computer in a hot, stuffy, non-air-conditioned room and make you listen to someone recite most of an air law textbook.
Falling asleep was common, and it is apparent from the monotonous tone of the narrator that he is contemplating ending it all just to get it over with.
I suggested to the school (OAA) afterwards that air law not being the most stimulating topic perhaps the shift to CBT was ill advised.
Falling asleep was common, and it is apparent from the monotonous tone of the narrator that he is contemplating ending it all just to get it over with.
I suggested to the school (OAA) afterwards that air law not being the most stimulating topic perhaps the shift to CBT was ill advised.
Max continuous
All credit to you for trying to gain experience, and it is experience.
However it cannot count towards any licence quotas. But, if you keep a record of the flights, routes etc, at least you can show on a CV that you have a certain number of hours in commercial operations , abeit as a 'passenger', but it is better than nothing.
Why don't you speak to the operator and ask if you could fly the non commercial legs, or some positioning flights as the pilot?
If you don't ask, you don't get!
All credit to you for trying to gain experience, and it is experience.
However it cannot count towards any licence quotas. But, if you keep a record of the flights, routes etc, at least you can show on a CV that you have a certain number of hours in commercial operations , abeit as a 'passenger', but it is better than nothing.
Why don't you speak to the operator and ask if you could fly the non commercial legs, or some positioning flights as the pilot?
If you don't ask, you don't get!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: slowenia
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What I find particularly sad is that in your endeavours to become a professional pilot, no doubt at considerable expense, nobody has told you what you can or can't do with your shiny new licence! What the hell do they do in 700 hours of groundschool?
Btw, I asked pilots with more than 20 years aviation experience but even they didn't had a clue how to log these hours in this particular situation. So it's not just bad theory lessons
It's rather a specific and non-usual situation in my opinion.
Then there are thousands of more important things to teach.
It's rather a specific and non-usual situation in my opinion.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:
You want to log time in the back of a Ryanair 737 just because you are a pilot
Hey I can legally log time whilst sleeping, so what's the difference ?
Mutt
You want to log time in the back of a Ryanair 737 just because you are a pilot
Hey I can legally log time whilst sleeping, so what's the difference ?
Mutt
I wonder how astronauts log their time when, say, being captain of the Orbiter whilst it's sat in orbit and they're eating, sleeping, or doing experiments up the back somewhere?
G
G
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 1,096
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I wonder how astronauts log their time...
More to the point they don't have a licence so they don't need to log anything to revalidate it. Have you noticed they never leave the circuit. Under EASA they will be Annex II.