Pilot Navigation
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Set Heading Procedures: Take time, turn onto correct heading, check correct general direction, align DI and Compass, check fuel, ETA, Radio call...
Then at checkpoints chosen as distances gone that divide into 60 (remember the 1 in 60 rule 1 Nm off in 60 Nm is 1 deg off track) So 15, 20, 30. At 15 put times 4 on the map, at 20 times 3 and at 30 times 2.
You arrive at the 20 Nm checkpoint in 13 minutes elapsed and pinpoint yourself as 3 Nm left of track - so multiply by 3 and you are tracking 9 deg left. Turn 18 deg right for 13 min to regain track (double drift) then left 9 deg to mantain a heading corrected for the drift experienced on the first 13 min.
Worked for years at low level in harvards etc so have fun....
Then at checkpoints chosen as distances gone that divide into 60 (remember the 1 in 60 rule 1 Nm off in 60 Nm is 1 deg off track) So 15, 20, 30. At 15 put times 4 on the map, at 20 times 3 and at 30 times 2.
You arrive at the 20 Nm checkpoint in 13 minutes elapsed and pinpoint yourself as 3 Nm left of track - so multiply by 3 and you are tracking 9 deg left. Turn 18 deg right for 13 min to regain track (double drift) then left 9 deg to mantain a heading corrected for the drift experienced on the first 13 min.
Worked for years at low level in harvards etc so have fun....
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: UK
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Hello,
Here's a question out of the blue on this thread. Was not sure where to post it.
On a navigation computer (CRP5) finding GS and TRK, when the wind mark (i.e. the drift) ends up Port or Starboard of the centerline, when do you add or subtract this number from your HDG?
Please also if anyone can recommend a website or youtube channel which teaches UK PPL nav I would be be so grateful. I've had to put my practical PPL training on hold for the past 4 months to try and learn navigation and pass the exam but being hopeless at maths I am finding it (the CRP5 stuff in particular) extremely difficult to understand!
Thank you
Here's a question out of the blue on this thread. Was not sure where to post it.
On a navigation computer (CRP5) finding GS and TRK, when the wind mark (i.e. the drift) ends up Port or Starboard of the centerline, when do you add or subtract this number from your HDG?
Please also if anyone can recommend a website or youtube channel which teaches UK PPL nav I would be be so grateful. I've had to put my practical PPL training on hold for the past 4 months to try and learn navigation and pass the exam but being hopeless at maths I am finding it (the CRP5 stuff in particular) extremely difficult to understand!
Thank you
Sounds to me that rather than asking lots of questions and getting a range of answers, you should go to your club and get your instructor to show you. It is far easier to learn from a demonstration than trying to teach yourself, especially when you are not sure what you need to learn in the first place.
Hello,
On a navigation computer (CRP5) finding GS and TRK, when the wind mark (i.e. the drift) ends up Port or Starboard of the centerline, when do you add or subtract this number from your HDG?
Please also if anyone can recommend a website or youtube channel which teaches UK PPL nav I would be be so grateful. I've had to put my practical PPL training on hold for the past 4 months to try and learn navigation and pass the exam but being hopeless at maths I am finding it (the CRP5 stuff in particular) extremely difficult to understand!
On a navigation computer (CRP5) finding GS and TRK, when the wind mark (i.e. the drift) ends up Port or Starboard of the centerline, when do you add or subtract this number from your HDG?
Please also if anyone can recommend a website or youtube channel which teaches UK PPL nav I would be be so grateful. I've had to put my practical PPL training on hold for the past 4 months to try and learn navigation and pass the exam but being hopeless at maths I am finding it (the CRP5 stuff in particular) extremely difficult to understand!
The wizz wheel is a brilliant tool and it's worth investing some time with an instructor who really understands all its foibles (preferably an FI who grew-up with linear slide rules or log tables). There are several people around the UK (including me!) who offer 1:1 groundschool on any aspects of the syllabus - whereabouts are you?
HFD
Join Date: Jan 2014
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Thanks for the responses.
Indeed, "ask a FI at your club for ground school" would be the best thing to do.
Problem is things went a bit sour between me and my school, who charged £50+ ph for theory sessions anyway, so I thought I'd be able to self study Nav and then finish off the flying bit at a different school. There are only 2 schools here who teach PPL. I asked a ground school provider in the area about lessons but they could not accommodate me.
(By the way, my school insisted I couldn't start practical navigation until I'd passed the ground exam...... oh and "no starting navigation until you've gone solo"...... Does this seem unreasonable?)
I'm unsure if this new school would accept me for theory lessons when I'm not officially a 'student' flying there yet, but I must ask them.
No doubt it's better to spend a few ££s on a few hours of formal tuition, rather than bang my head against the wall trying to teach myself something I know nothing about just from the books and an array of different methods demonstrated over the internet (many incorrect!). This would take months with my flying skills getting more and more rusty meanwhile, eventually requiring more practical lessons at £250ph
Haha and there was me planning on an ATPL distance learning course in future....!
HFD, must stay anonymous on here but I'm in the south of England and the school prices stated may give you a clue of the airport. If you're anywhere nearby feel free to PM me with more details.
You can’t use the Private Messaging system, add url links or images until you have an established posting history.
Indeed, "ask a FI at your club for ground school" would be the best thing to do.
Problem is things went a bit sour between me and my school, who charged £50+ ph for theory sessions anyway, so I thought I'd be able to self study Nav and then finish off the flying bit at a different school. There are only 2 schools here who teach PPL. I asked a ground school provider in the area about lessons but they could not accommodate me.
(By the way, my school insisted I couldn't start practical navigation until I'd passed the ground exam...... oh and "no starting navigation until you've gone solo"...... Does this seem unreasonable?)
I'm unsure if this new school would accept me for theory lessons when I'm not officially a 'student' flying there yet, but I must ask them.
No doubt it's better to spend a few ££s on a few hours of formal tuition, rather than bang my head against the wall trying to teach myself something I know nothing about just from the books and an array of different methods demonstrated over the internet (many incorrect!). This would take months with my flying skills getting more and more rusty meanwhile, eventually requiring more practical lessons at £250ph
Haha and there was me planning on an ATPL distance learning course in future....!
HFD, must stay anonymous on here but I'm in the south of England and the school prices stated may give you a clue of the airport. If you're anywhere nearby feel free to PM me with more details.
You can’t use the Private Messaging system, add url links or images until you have an established posting history.
I learned using the SCA method, then i switched to helicopters and discovered drift lines, which make everything 200% easier!
In a nutshell:
1 Draw your track line, then draw a dotted line 10° either side.
2 Pick a prominent feature somewhere before half way.
3 When you get there, use the track lines to assess your drift (rarely more than 5-6° unless the winds are completely wrong)
4 Now hold that error until the half way point (or half way time)
5 At the half way point, correct using Double the drift. (If you're 4° left, steer 8° right. 4° to get you parallel and 4° to correct you back again.
The further along track your 'drift fix' is, the more accurate, and you can of course alter the maths to suit (so if you assess drift and turn at ⅔ point for example, you would apply drift plus double drift)
Other than that, the biggest cock up will happen if you take off planning to turn left and atc tell you to turn right, immediately f*cking up your day and giving you monkey-brain, so take off and get yourself to a prominent feature close by and draw the line from there. That way you can start the clock and the right time, facing the right way at the right speed.
In a nutshell:
1 Draw your track line, then draw a dotted line 10° either side.
2 Pick a prominent feature somewhere before half way.
3 When you get there, use the track lines to assess your drift (rarely more than 5-6° unless the winds are completely wrong)
4 Now hold that error until the half way point (or half way time)
5 At the half way point, correct using Double the drift. (If you're 4° left, steer 8° right. 4° to get you parallel and 4° to correct you back again.
The further along track your 'drift fix' is, the more accurate, and you can of course alter the maths to suit (so if you assess drift and turn at ⅔ point for example, you would apply drift plus double drift)
Other than that, the biggest cock up will happen if you take off planning to turn left and atc tell you to turn right, immediately f*cking up your day and giving you monkey-brain, so take off and get yourself to a prominent feature close by and draw the line from there. That way you can start the clock and the right time, facing the right way at the right speed.
Wannabee1999
Just think about it. You don't, you add or subtract if from the Track to find your Heading. All headings and tracks are measured clockwise from Nortrh. If the drift is left The track will be left of the Heading so if you want to stay on Track, you must increase the Heading. Put simply, you must turn the Heading towards the wind to maintain the Track.
when do you add or subtract this number from your HDG?
Wannabe1999
Don't worry about a school not accepting you for theory - they're all businesses so will take money from anyone. The problem is more that many FIs seem to either dislike giving ground school or may not have the necessary depth of knowledge or academic rigour to do it well. That's why I suggested trying to find someone who's been around for a while, who understands the subjects rather than just parrots what they have learned, and who enjoys teaching.
I'm no longer "darn sarf". I operated, primarily, around Hampshire and Wiltshire for many years but have moved to beautiful, rural and relaxed, Herefordshire. People come here for semi-residential ground school and PPL exams so let me know if you fancy spending a day or two going through some of the subjects. Getting a full understanding of both sides of the wizz wheel won't take long and may make you a convert for life ;-)
HFD
Don't worry about a school not accepting you for theory - they're all businesses so will take money from anyone. The problem is more that many FIs seem to either dislike giving ground school or may not have the necessary depth of knowledge or academic rigour to do it well. That's why I suggested trying to find someone who's been around for a while, who understands the subjects rather than just parrots what they have learned, and who enjoys teaching.
I'm no longer "darn sarf". I operated, primarily, around Hampshire and Wiltshire for many years but have moved to beautiful, rural and relaxed, Herefordshire. People come here for semi-residential ground school and PPL exams so let me know if you fancy spending a day or two going through some of the subjects. Getting a full understanding of both sides of the wizz wheel won't take long and may make you a convert for life ;-)
HFD
Join Date: Aug 1999
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And that's why novices end up feature crawling and either getting lost or landing at the wrong airport.
And that's why novices end up feature crawling and either getting lost or landing at the wrong airport.
Sounds to me that rather than asking lots of questions and getting a range of answers, you should go to your club and get your instructor to show you. It is far easier to learn from a demonstration than trying to teach yourself, especially when you are not sure what you need to learn in the first place.
Take Whopity's advice though.
ie remaining 'on track' without deviating/getting back on track
Whopity - I haven't tried it (yet - I do plan to) but, on the face of it, it seems straightforward. Approaching a new leg, you initially turn onto track (not wind corrected heading), pick a point in the distance that is on your projected track and fly whatever heading is needed to maintain it, ie finding out what you wind corrected heading is based on actual wind, not forecast. It does strike me as close to 'track crawling' though and I note your point about what happens if you find yourself off track. Interesting that what RIN is promoting is not consistent with PPL training. I was just wondering if anywhere teaches this method.
Parson, are you referring to the 'technique' included in that 'Infringement Avoidance by enhanced navigation' leaflet peddled by RIN at AeroExpo?
I showed it to the CAA and GASCo - both had significant concerns. For example, the RIN 'Lost' procedure is anachronistic and they've made no mention of 'Squawk 0030'. I also doubt RIN's wisdom of so-called CRM in single pilot operations - "Ask any additional crew or passengers to hold the chart, read out the next track and drift details and manage the stopwatches. After the TP, they can carry out the 'F-I-R' part of the checks out loud and set up any radio changes". Nope - those are PIC tasks!!
As I used to tell my students, navigation cannot be difficult if navigators can do it!
Stick to simplicity, learn the Standard Closing Angle technique, do your FREDA checks at quiet times (NOT at turning points) fly heading and time between waypoints and above all LOOKOUT - particularly for screen-gazers bumbling along who may not be looking where they're going.
I showed it to the CAA and GASCo - both had significant concerns. For example, the RIN 'Lost' procedure is anachronistic and they've made no mention of 'Squawk 0030'. I also doubt RIN's wisdom of so-called CRM in single pilot operations - "Ask any additional crew or passengers to hold the chart, read out the next track and drift details and manage the stopwatches. After the TP, they can carry out the 'F-I-R' part of the checks out loud and set up any radio changes". Nope - those are PIC tasks!!
As I used to tell my students, navigation cannot be difficult if navigators can do it!
Stick to simplicity, learn the Standard Closing Angle technique, do your FREDA checks at quiet times (NOT at turning points) fly heading and time between waypoints and above all LOOKOUT - particularly for screen-gazers bumbling along who may not be looking where they're going.
Interesting that what RIN is promoting is not consistent with PPL training.
Maintaing track is all down to experience and the PPL trainee does not have it, so they must be taught how to recognise where they are in relation to track and what the options are for correcting. In my experience a young pilot will fly an accurate heading and height but fails to recognise when its not working. The older pilot may fly less accurately but seems to have more situational awareness (experience of life). Once they are uncertain they panic, look at the map and jump to irrational conclusions, because they are not using the clock.
BEagle - yes, I had read about this technique and then attended a lecture by an ex-RAF navigator at AeroExpo. I wasn't recommending it, just wondering what the general view of it was. Also why RIN was promoting something that differed so much from PPL DR. For the record, I also thought the RIN 'typical VFR chart' had way too much info added to it.
