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A Return to the Olden Days

Flying Instructors & Examiners A place for instructors to communicate with one another because some of them get a bit tired of the attitude that instructing is the lowest form of aviation, as seems to prevail on some of the other forums!

A Return to the Olden Days

Old 5th Jun 2008, 09:43
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 31
Im only pointing out the financial outlay concerned. We're away to hit a recession and fuel prices are at an all time high. Avgas is becoming very expensive, as are flying club rates. Not everybody has a spare 7 or 8 thousand quid to spend on a rating.
The only recession coming is the one we talk ourselves into......

BlacJake, sorry but you are wide of the mark here. There is no magical skills that doing a CPL gives you. Handling is about handling and the only difference between a PPL skills test and a CPL skills test is a bit tighter tolerances nothing more. Any CPL who thinks that because they hold a CPL it makes them a better pilot is an arrogant ass.

Any pilot who the dedication, skill and knowledge can teach regardless of being a PPL or CPL. There are many of each kind who will never be able to teach as long as their respective bums point downwards. Bringing back the opportunity for PPLs to teach again just widens the catchment for getting quality people into teaching and will hopefully introduce some continuity back into the GA scene.

The people who moan about the changes are generally those who are seeing the free meal ticket to hours going out the window.

We have to take a wider look at the state that the GA scene is in due to lack of continuity with the ours builders jumping at the firs airline job and leaving a vacuum that is bringing GA down. PPL instructors will fill the vacuum and bring back the old sense of club that existed in the past with peer teaching etc.

I don't feel threatened by it at all and welcome it with open arms as I am wise enough to know that natural selection will prevail.
S-Works is offline  
Old 5th Jun 2008, 19:34
  #22 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 35
Bose, If you care to re-read my post you might notice that nowhere do I imply that a CPL holder is a more skilled pilot than a PPL holder. I simply stated that the instructor course should be about learning to teach, not brush up on flying skills. If I am wrong, perhaps an FIC instructor or FIE can post here to put me right.
As you are obviously so clued up about the difference between the CPL and PPL skill test, I assume therefore you are both a PPL and CPL examiner. True or no?
Likewise regarding theoretical knowledge, my post clearly states, "if all experienced PPLs who aspire to instruct really knew their stuff, CPL level of knowledge wouldn't be required." Perhaps you can explain, using a whiteboard and four colours, why that is wide of the mark?
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Old 5th Jun 2008, 20:14
  #23 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 31
Blackjake. Toys, back into pram mate.

The instructor course is not just about learning to teach, it is about ensuring that all of the flying skills are up to scratch. For some that means refreshing some of the basics that don't get practiced that often.

So with your toys back in the pram, perhaps you want to explain clearly why you think that a CPL holder is going to be better than a PPL holder at Instruction? If every candidate knew their stuff then no training at all would be required would it? A benchmark is set and that benchmark is meant to ensure that every candidate meets a minimum demonstrated standard. In this case JAA have dictated CPL level knowledge. I don't read anywhere CPL level handling skills.......

Whats your problem with my comments, a CPL holder who feels threatened that a 'mere' PPL might be up to the job.....
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Old 5th Jun 2008, 20:34
  #24 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 35
Still waiting for a reply from someone who knows what they're talking about, rather than someone who thinks they do.
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Old 5th Jun 2008, 20:48
  #25 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Darkest Scotland
Posts: 98

For a living I instruct ab-initio train drivers and I fly for fun. There are many drivers in my company with equivalent or better knowledge than I have but not that many that can instruct to the same standard.

Flying/driving needs the underpinning of a thorough knowledge and understanding of your subject. This is required for the safe and efficient operation of your job. However, instructing needs an empathy towards and an appreciation of your student/trainees needs and the ability to transfer that knowledge to a nervous student/trainee. Having seen both sides of this equation I can say that a 10000 hr retired long haul captain can be a worse instructor than a 300 hr wannabe if he lacks the ability to go back to very basics. It can be very hard to do this, to concentrate on the basics.

I know this will be difficult for very experienced people to take but hours spent behind the mast does not equate to good instructional skills.

Perhaps the airline industry has the same system as us. Newly qualified drivers need to spend 450 hours driving with one of the above 10000 hr drivers who acts as a supervisor (no instructing, just mentoring) before he goes solo.
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Old 6th Jun 2008, 07:41
  #26 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
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SOTV, has pretty much hit it on the head. Teaching is about empathy and an ability to communicate as well as a passion for the subject. It is nothing to do with the qualifications that the candidate holds.

By removing the requirement to hold a CPL we open the field up to more candidates. There are many people holders who have the empathy and experience to teach but can't get a CPL for medical reasons for example. This does not stop them from becoming a good Instructor.

The whole point is that the FI course is to weed out/improve the candidates and teach them to teach. When I did my own Instructor course there were others on their who had rusty skills, mostly the airline jocks who were not used to PFL's and stalls in small aircraft who were brushed up.

I would expect the kids doing an FI straight from training to have acceptable skills most of the time, although again having seen a few of them you wonder.

But the point that I keep trying to make is that re-opening the opportunities for PPL to teach again will allow us to draw more consistency back into teaching.
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Old 6th Jun 2008, 09:09
  #27 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Somewhere Back In Time
Age: 53
Posts: 17
PPl Instructors

More food for thought concerning the ongoing argument for PPL instructors. I have been flying for 15 years, and running a flying school for 10 years. In this time I have found PPL instructors to be every bit as good their CPL colleagues. We also have PPL CRI(SP) instructors who seem much more enthusiastic than CPLs, as in they will come in on the weekend for 1 or 2 hours flying for no pay, some CPLS will not come in unless they get a full days paid flying, also the PPL instructors still hire out aircraft and fly for pleasure, the CPL attitude seems to be "Iam not paying to fly anymore". With some hour building CPL holders once they have an airline job they let their instructors rating lapse never to be seen again.
As for the argument about the CPL exams, because PPL CRI(SP) instructors are not required to take them does not mean they have not had their heads in all the right books.
The PPL syllabus is about learning basic flying skills and apart from a bit of radio nav is mainly focused on basic dead reckoning and map reading, a skill which since GPS became available seems to be forgotten after ones licence is issued.
So how the effects of the coriolis force on objects in space, as mentioned in an earlier post effects flying a 152 around Kent is beyond me.
I welcome the return of the PPL(FI), With the huge costs involved at the present time to obtain a CPL and instructors rating some good and very experienced PPLs are put of the idea of becoming instructors, if this does not change the industry soon will not exist.
The Wicker Man is offline  
Old 6th Jun 2008, 10:39
  #28 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: East Riding
Posts: 53
PPL Instructors

I've been following this thread with some interest and noted the various views expressed.I think at long last with the most recent posts by SOTV,bose-x and wicker man we are starting to get to the nub of the matter.Surely the key to the whole of this debate is a person's ability to teach allied to sufficient knowledge and experience to ensure that any student is safe in the basic skills and has the theoretical and practical knowledge to understand the wider environment in which they will eventually exercise the privileges of their licence.Whilst I am fully of the view that the need for a CPL as a formal qualification is way over the top in terms of content we maybe ought to be looking at a more rigorous examination of the PPL level theoretical knowledge requirements as part of the FI course.

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Old 6th Jun 2008, 13:42
  #29 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 669
Whilst I am fully of the view that the need for a CPL as a formal qualification is way over the top in terms of content we maybe ought to be looking at a more rigorous examination of the PPL level theoretical knowledge requirements as part of the FI course.
Good point... and here perhaps is where we need to start looking for our solutions. The AOPA Ground Instructor Cert (for example) is a rigorous syllabus and an ideal way for prospective PPL Instructors to ease their way into the system, improve standards - and generate new income streams for the Club/School....

I am also of the opinion that anyone doing a job has the right to be paid - why shouldn`t a suitably qualifed PPL instructor be paid to instruct? Payment also enhances status and accountability.

It would be quite simple to invent a "Commercial Classification" on completion of an FIC to satisfy this right to earn.

(I`m an interested observer as I`m considering returning to instructing (did circa 3500 hrs of it until about 15 yrs ago) but well out of the system now... but wont consider it if I can`t be paid to at the very least recoup renewal costs... or if I have to maintain a "Professional" licence.
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Old 6th Jun 2008, 21:14
  #30 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: england
Posts: 98
Excellent posts here I think. The fact is that few people are any good at teaching a subject no matter what the knowledge base or enthusiasm. Many superb pilots are useless instructors. It may well be that the below average bloke who has struggled to cope is better than an 'ace' when it comes to getting his subject across. At least he understands the problem.

If teaching were simply a matter of learning a subject and a bit of teaching technique our schools would not be full of hopeless individuals employed as 'teachers'. It is a rare skill where it is found and the demand for instructors will always exceed the pool of people reallly good at it. Hence the logic of the biggest pool possible.
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Old 7th Jun 2008, 06:31
  #31 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Essex
Age: 49
Posts: 30
When I did my PPl I had a choice of instructors.
I chose one who had 4000+ hours flying experience and not a new CPL hours builder with 200+ hours.

I would do the same. I would not have felt comfortable with a low hours instructor.
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Old 7th Jun 2008, 07:52
  #32 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: london
Posts: 146
Having just ploughed my way through the latest EASA NPA 2008-17b when it come to the suggested rules on flying instructors (subpart J) my reading of the proposal is as follows:
FCL.905/910/915 930/935/940 Specific requirements for the light aircraft flight instructor would indicate that indeed you can instruct with just a PPL (200 hours and then do course) HOWEVER it only enables you to teach for the LPL leisure pilot licence (old nppl ?)

FCL905FI/910FI/915FI/935FI/940FI would seem to indicate if you wish to teach PPL etc then you need a CPL still.

However FCL205A (page 19/647) Privileges of a PPL (A) states that the holder of a PPL(a) may receive renumeration for providing flight instruction for the provision of a LPL(a) OR PPL(a)

yet the requirements to attend a FI Course FCL915FI (page51/647) state you need a CPL .....so how do you get an instructors rating just with a PPL ??

I know it is not easy reading but if anyone else has read this (or has the inclination to !) I would be interested in how they interpret the proposal.

Last edited by mudcity; 7th Jun 2008 at 08:22.
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Old 7th Jun 2008, 10:05
  #33 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 31
mudcity. Your interpretation is almost right. The requirements for a CPL for the FI course are actually CPL knowledge not to hold a CPL. You can currently do an FI course without holding a CPL that is not changing.
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Old 7th Jun 2008, 12:26
  #34 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: london
Posts: 146
Cheers bose x...I have just reread FCL915FI and the pre-requisities for the FI course part (C) actually state hold at least a CPL(a) OR completed at least 200 hours of flight time,of which 150 PIC

When I first read it did not see the OR ! so the way I read it is YES you can do FI course with just a PPL providing you have the hours.
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Old 7th Jun 2008, 20:30
  #35 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: U.K.
Posts: 807
Little history reminder: For many, many years, PPL's with 150 hours in command could take FI courses and thus instruct. They were also allowed a salary to do so. I was one of them, but then in those days I had no intention of gaining a CPL, let alone an ATPL, I just wanted to instruct at weekends at the local club. I think I did a good job: my FIC course not only included the passing on of handling skills but also honed my theoretical knowledge beyond that of the PPL syllabus.
Often I noted at my club newly qualified instructors joining, demanding tons and tons of flying and when their logbooks contained the magic 700 hours, off they would go to get their CPL's without having to incurr the cost of an "approved course". We never saw them again, just had to sort out the instructional mess that they had left behind. Of course, because of this, the pay that part time FI's could get was peanuts (it still is) and there was concern that the poor wage structure discriminated against the "career instructor" discouraged high quality instruction and only favoured the hours builder.
Thus the requirement to hold a BCPL was introduced to try and cut down the number of hours builders and encourage the industry to pay a worthwhile wage to instructors. This did not solve the problem, thus the requirement to hold a full CPL was introduced for the same reason. Unfortunately, as there was such a shortage of flying jobs, the guy with a (say) 300 hour CPL was much less likely to get the coveted RHS job than the guy with (say) 1500 hours. Thus the brand new CPL goes off and gets an instructor rating, once again to build hours! To this day therefore the laws of supply and demand have kept instructor's remuneration low. As the same situation does not exist in the helocopter industry, helicopter PPL QFI's get a very much better living, but then of course, helicopters cost much more to operate.
So now, everything is turning full circle. The powers that be have given up trying to get fixed wing instructors a decent standard of living and as PPL instructors did and can do the job perfectly adequately are seriously considering removing the CPL requirement to the holding of an instructor's rating.

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Old 8th Jun 2008, 20:15
  #36 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Sussex
Posts: 108
In my view, enthusiastic PPLs who have actually experienced the range of PPL type activities, such as going to fly-ins, ralllies, visiting new airfields, crossing the channel, flying different types of aeroplanes, going on holiday to fly in other countries, taking part in the Dawn to Dusk or Precision flying competitions, would make far more suitable PPL instructors than the youngsters who graduate from Integrated courses or focussed CPLs. The latter have never done any REAL flying, never been anywhere outside the narrow scope of their syllabus and do not know the joy of flying somewhere just for the sake of it on a sunny day to sit and drink coffee and watch the other types of aviation going on. Examples - flying to Headcorn and watching the Tiger Club go through their routines, the parachutes dropping and all the other colourful things going on; Wycombe Air Park when the gliders are busy alongside fixed wing and rotary all getting on well together.

The average 200 hour CPL does not seem to me to have the breadth and depth of experience I would like to see in the FI - I have trained over 140 instructors now and the ones with more hours in their log books and more decades since their birth are generally much more likely to be good and successful instructors. The youngsters who are only looking to get hours on the way to an airline and are more interested in looking trendy than learning are a waste of time.

So I welcome the return to PPLs being paid to instruct. I have trained a few PPL instructors already over the years and although their handling skills may not be as honed as those who have just passed a CPL Skill test, their life skills usually more than make up for it.
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Old 9th Jun 2008, 09:07
  #37 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: West Britain
Age: 70
Posts: 181
Gosh, there seem to an awful lot of personal axes being ground on this thread. I personally find it quite surreal when the 'I know better because I'm high-houred/low-houred/PPL/ATPL' brigade get into their stride. My own observation, from 30 years of instruction, is that a good instructor is a bit like a gentleman (or lady). Difficult to define, but you know one when you see one.

Flying instruction will always be poorly remunerated, because otherwise flying training will price itself out of the market - I left home at 0730 yesterday, got back at 2000, flew seven lessons, managed a 10 minute break to wolf down a sandwich and took home 83, of which 20 went on petrol. It follows that you need people prepared to work for peanuts to populate the instructor force. This includes weekenders and hours builders. Not right or fair, but that's the way of the world.

Mmm. Looks like a lovely evening in prospect to fly my microlight.
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Old 9th Jun 2008, 18:23
  #38 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Isle 6, Dairy produce
Posts: 106
Is instructing on a PPL still subject to the same medical requirements of a CPL i.e class 1?
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Old 9th Jun 2008, 18:43
  #39 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 31
Nope Class 2
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Old 10th Jun 2008, 10:23
  #40 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Isle 6, Dairy produce
Posts: 106
So can one assume that if this goes through they'll also be relaxing the medical requirements on current instructors with class 1 medicals? I bloody hope so!
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