EASA planning to relax CPL requirement for instructors
PPL's don't die from not knowing the inside of a a INS unit, but plenty have been killed due to an inadequate grasp of the fundamental flying skills. In any case what you as the instructor know is not the point. The mark of good instructing is imparting your knowledge and skill by teaching the right stuff at the right time. For a PPL that means concentrating on the theory and practice of fundamental flying skills.
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What concerns me in these replies is that very few seem to have any thought for the drop in standards and the deterioration in terms and conditions which inevitably follow an influx of PPL instructors.
200 hours of structured training and solo work on a CPL course must surely be better than 200 hours flying to local airfields with friends for cups of tea. And CPL groundschool must give a better knowledge base than PPL groundschool even if some ofthe subjects aren't entirely relevant. If this is not the case then there is something seriously wrong with the CPL syllabus!
So why are we pushing for the reduction in minimum standards? Presumably the current standard of instructor is too high or perhaps there are too many hours builders out there? If so why has it taken so long for AOPA and others to push for this? The clubs were more than happy to take our money to qualify under the JAA CPL system. They only want to change it now because they can't find enough instructors willing to work for peanuts. Pay a decent salary and you will get the instructors you need and many will stay rather than run off to an airline to pay the mortgage.
I think that many in senior positions within the industry will effectively encourage hours building under the new system. see Beagle's quote below:
"corsair, assuming that the PPL+200 is good enough to pass the FI course, he/she can then build hours as a FI and save towards the cost of the CPL/IR later."
I have a great deal of respect for Beagle's views on most matters but I really can't see the logic of welcoming the prospect of PPL/FI, hours builders who will ultimately leave for the airlines. Lower standards...same problem.
Those of you out there who can afford to instruct for the fun of it or for a pittance are very lucky. I cannot. Money should not be a dirty word in this industry.
200 hours of structured training and solo work on a CPL course must surely be better than 200 hours flying to local airfields with friends for cups of tea. And CPL groundschool must give a better knowledge base than PPL groundschool even if some ofthe subjects aren't entirely relevant. If this is not the case then there is something seriously wrong with the CPL syllabus!
So why are we pushing for the reduction in minimum standards? Presumably the current standard of instructor is too high or perhaps there are too many hours builders out there? If so why has it taken so long for AOPA and others to push for this? The clubs were more than happy to take our money to qualify under the JAA CPL system. They only want to change it now because they can't find enough instructors willing to work for peanuts. Pay a decent salary and you will get the instructors you need and many will stay rather than run off to an airline to pay the mortgage.
I think that many in senior positions within the industry will effectively encourage hours building under the new system. see Beagle's quote below:
"corsair, assuming that the PPL+200 is good enough to pass the FI course, he/she can then build hours as a FI and save towards the cost of the CPL/IR later."
I have a great deal of respect for Beagle's views on most matters but I really can't see the logic of welcoming the prospect of PPL/FI, hours builders who will ultimately leave for the airlines. Lower standards...same problem.
Those of you out there who can afford to instruct for the fun of it or for a pittance are very lucky. I cannot. Money should not be a dirty word in this industry.
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Money for old Rope?
Pringle
What I think you are missing is that the situation that you describe as now has only truly been the situation for a little over the last ten years or later when the JAR's became effective. Before then from around 1990 all instructors were PPL/FI. It is to be reminded that the system then was AFI and with much more experience than now, FI.
It is generally agreed by those with experience of both systems that instructing standards have not improved and many claim the instructing standards are, today, lower than before. The reasons given for a supposed drop in standards is the lack of experience of many of todays FI/FI(r).
The background knowledge of todays FIs is much greater than before but there appears to be a poor standard of how to impart it. Perhaps due in large part to the 'pub quiz' nature of the ATPL/CPL study and exam system. I certainly felt that was true when I did them pre JAA.
I don't think it is necessarily a loss of flying experience that is so much missing in flying club instruction, it is more a lack of maturity and experience of life in general. The instructing world being dominated by very young unreliable people on their way to the airlines.
What I think you are missing is that the situation that you describe as now has only truly been the situation for a little over the last ten years or later when the JAR's became effective. Before then from around 1990 all instructors were PPL/FI. It is to be reminded that the system then was AFI and with much more experience than now, FI.
It is generally agreed by those with experience of both systems that instructing standards have not improved and many claim the instructing standards are, today, lower than before. The reasons given for a supposed drop in standards is the lack of experience of many of todays FI/FI(r).
The background knowledge of todays FIs is much greater than before but there appears to be a poor standard of how to impart it. Perhaps due in large part to the 'pub quiz' nature of the ATPL/CPL study and exam system. I certainly felt that was true when I did them pre JAA.
I don't think it is necessarily a loss of flying experience that is so much missing in flying club instruction, it is more a lack of maturity and experience of life in general. The instructing world being dominated by very young unreliable people on their way to the airlines.
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Homeguard,
I agree with everything you say. I work with excellent PPL/BCPL instructors who had plenty of hours and experience prior to doing an FI course. I also qualified under the old CAA system and qualfied as an AFI rather than FI(R). The world has changed. The problem is we are potentially going to have even lower standards if we drop to a 200 hour PPL rather than a 200 hours CPL. Neither of them are ideal. If someone suggested say 500 hours as a minimum for a PPL candidate there may be some logic in the plans as the candidate would have experience to pass on and would be unlikely to be chasing hours for the first airline job.
I agree with everything you say. I work with excellent PPL/BCPL instructors who had plenty of hours and experience prior to doing an FI course. I also qualified under the old CAA system and qualfied as an AFI rather than FI(R). The world has changed. The problem is we are potentially going to have even lower standards if we drop to a 200 hour PPL rather than a 200 hours CPL. Neither of them are ideal. If someone suggested say 500 hours as a minimum for a PPL candidate there may be some logic in the plans as the candidate would have experience to pass on and would be unlikely to be chasing hours for the first airline job.
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Interesting that the CRI single-engine entry requirement is 300hrs!
I think the whole CPL thing is a bit of a red herring. As someone who has done the CPL exmas purely to get an FI on my PPL, they were hard work and a pain, but I really can't see how someone who thinks they can't do them due to motivation/time/money could manage an FI course due to motivation/time/money etc... I think the key to all this are the standards demanded in the air and on the ground on the FI course - pretty high in my experience, and any 'bad' PPLs will soon find themselves doing more than the 30hrs to get to pass standard. Moreover the standard demanded by club / schools of their FIs during normal ops and at renewal time - how many CFIs fly now and again with their FI(R)s to check their instruction and mentor their instructional development?? Someone could do an FI course and only have to have someone see their instructional technique once every 6 years after that (how many exercises etc.. will that cover? Any nav in that??)
I think the whole CPL thing is a bit of a red herring. As someone who has done the CPL exmas purely to get an FI on my PPL, they were hard work and a pain, but I really can't see how someone who thinks they can't do them due to motivation/time/money could manage an FI course due to motivation/time/money etc... I think the key to all this are the standards demanded in the air and on the ground on the FI course - pretty high in my experience, and any 'bad' PPLs will soon find themselves doing more than the 30hrs to get to pass standard. Moreover the standard demanded by club / schools of their FIs during normal ops and at renewal time - how many CFIs fly now and again with their FI(R)s to check their instruction and mentor their instructional development?? Someone could do an FI course and only have to have someone see their instructional technique once every 6 years after that (how many exercises etc.. will that cover? Any nav in that??)
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Blind leading the blind!
Blagger
Your last sentences tell a lot. We have a crazy situation where an FI(r) requires only 50 hours instructing and have signed off 25 student solos (they might not have even flown with the student) and all they need is a supervisors signature (who is this person meant to be ) and hey presto they can now continue working unrestricted sending first solos and only be assessed once in the next 6 years.
I'm told the following and I actually believe it;
FI(r) graduates and passes his FI test 1st July
19 July - Flown 50 hours instructing
25 July - signed off 50 student solos (given the job to sign off the student flights as long as they don't also expect the money)
1st August - FI unrestricted (must have been lucky with PLD and the speed of post.)
2nd August is signing, as Supervising FI other FI(r) applications for them also to become unrestricted.
And they talk about standards - I don't think so!
Your last sentences tell a lot. We have a crazy situation where an FI(r) requires only 50 hours instructing and have signed off 25 student solos (they might not have even flown with the student) and all they need is a supervisors signature (who is this person meant to be ) and hey presto they can now continue working unrestricted sending first solos and only be assessed once in the next 6 years.
I'm told the following and I actually believe it;
FI(r) graduates and passes his FI test 1st July
19 July - Flown 50 hours instructing
25 July - signed off 50 student solos (given the job to sign off the student flights as long as they don't also expect the money)
1st August - FI unrestricted (must have been lucky with PLD and the speed of post.)
2nd August is signing, as Supervising FI other FI(r) applications for them also to become unrestricted.
And they talk about standards - I don't think so!
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Unless the rules have changed recently 100 hours instructional time is required to remove the restriction and the first revalidation (2-3 years following qualification) must be a proficency check with a FIE.
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I'm told the following and I actually believe it;
I got a full-time job with a large school last September. Since then, I've done 200 hours instruction but I've 'only' managed 15 sign-offs. Our CFI and Deputy CFI hold regular 2-3 hour instructor meetings (on rainy mornings) to go through recent flying with various students, using the student notes that we write up as source material (so there had better be some meaningful comments!) Our CFI and deputy CFI have over half a century of instructional experience between them, plenty of help for us tyros! They don't breath over our shoulder all the time, but they do monitor our progress and offer advice.
The form upon which I'm carefully noting my solo sign-offs has a bit on it about the supervising instructor recommending the removal of my restriction; it's still up to the CFI to approve this. I would hope that if they see 25 sign-offs all within a week or so they'll be asking questions and NOT approving the restriction removal.
I'm expecting the process of derestriction to take around 300 hours/10 months which is probably around the time it would have taken to upgrade from AFI to FI in the 'old' days. I'm not being any slower or quicker than my colleagues, we're all taking about the same pace with our sign-offs and flying around the same number of hours. I know that some JAA countries haven't adopted the restriction system, you can send people for their first solo on day one!
Incidentally, we have a further restriction, not included in the letter of the law. We aren't allowed to send students off on their qualifying cross-countries; I think LASORS only talks about 1st solos and 1st solo cross-countries.
Cheers,
TheOddOne
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Really Homeguard? it is said that some people will believe anything. When did it change from 100 hours and 25 supervised solo flights. Sensibly, solo flights would be those of students with whom you have flown. I know it can be abused. When you send a student off solo and confer on her or him the status of pilot it is normal to consider the pilot's safety, the safety of those over which she or he may fly and to have some consideration for their family and dependants. If you have trained her or him well and the training has been assimilated then it may be less daunting. Do not expect that the instructors who brag about their rapid progress are truthful, they may be hiding their insecurity. If on the other hand you have a genuine concern as I would have given the scenario that you say you believe, then speak to someone who may influence the situation - why would you not do so? Supervision is a serious responsibility and a duty of care.
PS took longer to type than expected but agree with other posts immediately above too.
PS took longer to type than expected but agree with other posts immediately above too.
Last edited by SkyCamMK; 12th Apr 2008 at 19:49. Reason: add addressee
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Never see what was wrong with the old system slightly modified.
150hrs P.1 PPL to start AFI course.
Instructor written to reflect whats actually required of an instructor.
500 hrs supervision to remove restriction, that should at least see an instructor through the first winter.
Say 25 solo supervisions of which the instructor as at least done 5 hours with student.
In 20 years of instructing under the various ways of getting the instructors ticket i've never seen any difference in standard.
Whats more important is the psychological/personal make up of the instructors i have met.
If an instructor is not doing something right then its up to the CFI to put them straight.
Perhaps the only change is the reduction in ex RAF types from WWII who were happy to throw an aircraft around having had the benefit of hundreds of hours in very powerful aircraft and well structured training.
150hrs P.1 PPL to start AFI course.
Instructor written to reflect whats actually required of an instructor.
500 hrs supervision to remove restriction, that should at least see an instructor through the first winter.
Say 25 solo supervisions of which the instructor as at least done 5 hours with student.
In 20 years of instructing under the various ways of getting the instructors ticket i've never seen any difference in standard.
Whats more important is the psychological/personal make up of the instructors i have met.
If an instructor is not doing something right then its up to the CFI to put them straight.
Perhaps the only change is the reduction in ex RAF types from WWII who were happy to throw an aircraft around having had the benefit of hundreds of hours in very powerful aircraft and well structured training.
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Experience hours
The reduction from 100 hours to 50 instructing was passed to me during the recent GAPAN/CFS Senior Instructor Conference. The change is yet to be published however, yet i'm told it is effective as of now.
The first revalidation must be by flight test but the next can be the seminar. I correct what I have said, the new Instructor could go up to 9 years with only one flight check since qualification.
SkyCamMK
Rather patronising and silly post in response to what I have written. My believe in what I have been told was ironical in that, as silly as it sounds, it is all too likely to be true in this world gone mad. My concern is that what I was told is posssible, whether it is really true, who cares. With regard to passing my concerns on to those who can make the changes, be assured that I do so, at every opportunity. However, also be assured that any changes will be dominated much more by Europe as a whole rather than from only within the UK for we have limited influence
My actual real point was, obvious if you had read what I said more carefully, that we have for a number of years been making rules that we couldn't keep to and are un-enforcable. The role of the 'supervisor' experienced by TheOddOne is ideal and so is the schools general conduct. How they do it is how it was intended to be but it isn't undertaken in such a structured way generally, it would seem. The Supervisor role is widely flouted and the CAA feel powerless to effect it. Note the recent Training Comm from Pat Lander with regard to FI(r) supervision. He notes that the meaning is not clear, it is unclear and he can only offer his advice. As always the advice from Pat is well thought through and helpful even if it is ignored by too many.
What we need to do, in my opinion, is for us all to look more closely at the general practices in the other european countries. We appear to be very different in the UK and many of the changes make little sense to us, perhaps because they are at odds with our system and are difficult to incorporate.
The first revalidation must be by flight test but the next can be the seminar. I correct what I have said, the new Instructor could go up to 9 years with only one flight check since qualification.
SkyCamMK
Rather patronising and silly post in response to what I have written. My believe in what I have been told was ironical in that, as silly as it sounds, it is all too likely to be true in this world gone mad. My concern is that what I was told is posssible, whether it is really true, who cares. With regard to passing my concerns on to those who can make the changes, be assured that I do so, at every opportunity. However, also be assured that any changes will be dominated much more by Europe as a whole rather than from only within the UK for we have limited influence
My actual real point was, obvious if you had read what I said more carefully, that we have for a number of years been making rules that we couldn't keep to and are un-enforcable. The role of the 'supervisor' experienced by TheOddOne is ideal and so is the schools general conduct. How they do it is how it was intended to be but it isn't undertaken in such a structured way generally, it would seem. The Supervisor role is widely flouted and the CAA feel powerless to effect it. Note the recent Training Comm from Pat Lander with regard to FI(r) supervision. He notes that the meaning is not clear, it is unclear and he can only offer his advice. As always the advice from Pat is well thought through and helpful even if it is ignored by too many.
What we need to do, in my opinion, is for us all to look more closely at the general practices in the other european countries. We appear to be very different in the UK and many of the changes make little sense to us, perhaps because they are at odds with our system and are difficult to incorporate.
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I don't know, I'm afraid, but you'd have to be a mug, like me, to pay for a CPL with these plans on the horizon.
I hope the powers that be have considered this and realise that the instructor shortage will probably get worse. Maybe only short term but it will still be long enough for a few clubs to go bust.
I hope the powers that be have considered this and realise that the instructor shortage will probably get worse. Maybe only short term but it will still be long enough for a few clubs to go bust.
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I don't know, I'm afraid, but you'd have to be a mug, like me, to pay for a CPL with these plans on the horizon.
I hope the powers that be have considered this and realise that the instructor shortage will probably get worse. Maybe only short term but it will still be long enough for a few clubs to go bust.
I hope the powers that be have considered this and realise that the instructor shortage will probably get worse. Maybe only short term but it will still be long enough for a few clubs to go bust.
Whereas before, i was going to have to fund this myself and at the later stages apply for my Career Development Loan ((CDL) £8k at most). I can now use my CDL to fund my PPL, during which time i should be able to raise enough to fund the further hours needed and my FIC. Once i have passed my PPL, my CDL will then start to charge me interest and for me to begin paying it back. This would be rather useless if i had to then begin my CPL training.
Maybe getting slightly off-topic there.
Does anyone have any idea whether the Class 1 medical will be required in this situation - PPL with FI License?
My 1st post on these forums!
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My point was that at the moment you need a CPL to be paid as an instructor. As far as I know there is no date yet for when the new PPL/FI rules will be implemented. I suspect many will wait until the new regs are in place before doing the FI Course, thereby saving several thousand pounds and a lot of time and effort.
The result could be a shortage of new FI's in the short term. I suspect the long term will be just the opposite with too many new PPL/FI's looking for work at their local club rather than relocating to where the jobs are. (A CPL wannabe Airline pilot, hours builder may be more prepared to relocate, particularly if they are looking to build hours ASAP and don't have a Day Job to hold down).
All speculation I know, but, not beyond the relms of possibility I would suggest!
The result could be a shortage of new FI's in the short term. I suspect the long term will be just the opposite with too many new PPL/FI's looking for work at their local club rather than relocating to where the jobs are. (A CPL wannabe Airline pilot, hours builder may be more prepared to relocate, particularly if they are looking to build hours ASAP and don't have a Day Job to hold down).
All speculation I know, but, not beyond the relms of possibility I would suggest!
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the problem with PPL's is half can't fly and the other half know f**k all.
you have an unbeliveable attitude . most so called professional instructors that i have had the misfortune to cross swords with couldnt give a hoot about students or clubs as they built hours for thier forthcomming careers. the instructors who had a professional approach were invariablely club based instructor with day jobs who were instructing because they like it. Student pilots do not exist to provide ATPL candidates with hour building and cash. This is a great proposal and it will save general aviation by creating a stepwise approach to training.
Last edited by lfclfc; 15th Apr 2008 at 05:27. Reason: to refer quote
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I see your point now Pringle. People in similar situations to me will wait untill this new proposal is put into effect causing a potential shortage of FI's followed by a relatively large influx of them.
lfclfc: If the student wants to be a good pilot, surely they would do a fair bit of research into who would possibly be teaching them first and even go to meet them before hand with an arsenal of questions. I was very glad i did, however i do understand many people simply don't have options in this case.
Also i can't imagine i would want to instruct without holding a valid CPL and not having sucessfully passed CPL knowledge. For me, it all comes down to how much i value my life (& others) and the thought right now of me teaching my first student, scares the crap outta me.
lfclfc: If the student wants to be a good pilot, surely they would do a fair bit of research into who would possibly be teaching them first and even go to meet them before hand with an arsenal of questions. I was very glad i did, however i do understand many people simply don't have options in this case.
Also i can't imagine i would want to instruct without holding a valid CPL and not having sucessfully passed CPL knowledge. For me, it all comes down to how much i value my life (& others) and the thought right now of me teaching my first student, scares the crap outta me.
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So can anyone out there clarify the nature and timescale of the proposed changes for us?
jez d - I see you have seen a draft of the proposals. Is that 'public' yet and if so do you know where it can be found?
jez d - I see you have seen a draft of the proposals. Is that 'public' yet and if so do you know where it can be found?
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The EC Regulation 216/2008 relating to Operations & Licensing has been published and a term commonly referred to is 'Leisure Pilot Licence', which, given the medical requirements similar to the UK NPPL would appear to be something along the lines of the UK NPPL or to what has been often called the "new LAPL".
Annex III to the Regulations states:
1.i.2. Flight and flight simulation instruction
Flight and flight simulation instruction must be given by appropriately qualified instructors, who have the following qualifications:
(i) meet the theoretical knowledge and the experience requirements appropriate for the instruction being given;
(ii) be capable of using appropriate instructional techniques;
(iii) have practised instructional techniques in those flight manoeuvres and procedures in which it is intended to provide flight instruction;
(iv) have demonstrated the ability to instruct in those areas in which flight instruction is to be given, including pre-flight, post-flight and ground instruction; and
(v) receive regular refresher training to ensure that the instructional standards are maintained up to date.
Flight instructors must also be entitled to act as pilot in command on the aircraft for which instruction is being given, except for training on new aircraft types.
This doesn't really tell us anything new and it seems there are no Acceptable Means of Compliance or Guidance Material documents out yet.
I was under the understanding that the new class of FI Rating would be applicable to this new grade of licence only and not a full EASA PPL but I stand to be corrected!
Annex III to the Regulations states:
1.i.2. Flight and flight simulation instruction
Flight and flight simulation instruction must be given by appropriately qualified instructors, who have the following qualifications:
(i) meet the theoretical knowledge and the experience requirements appropriate for the instruction being given;
(ii) be capable of using appropriate instructional techniques;
(iii) have practised instructional techniques in those flight manoeuvres and procedures in which it is intended to provide flight instruction;
(iv) have demonstrated the ability to instruct in those areas in which flight instruction is to be given, including pre-flight, post-flight and ground instruction; and
(v) receive regular refresher training to ensure that the instructional standards are maintained up to date.
Flight instructors must also be entitled to act as pilot in command on the aircraft for which instruction is being given, except for training on new aircraft types.
This doesn't really tell us anything new and it seems there are no Acceptable Means of Compliance or Guidance Material documents out yet.
I was under the understanding that the new class of FI Rating would be applicable to this new grade of licence only and not a full EASA PPL but I stand to be corrected!