FAA Instrument Rating training in the UK

[athonite]

Does anyone know if it is possible for a CAA/JAA Qualified Flying Instructor (instrument restriction removed) with a UK CPL or ATPL to conduct instruction for the FAA Instrument Rating in the UK?

Does he or she need to be a FAA instructor or certified by the FAA for the students training to count towards the issue of the rating?

Are there any reputable FTO's in the UK authorised to conduct such training?

[porridge]

Check your PM's

[IO540]

The answer depends on what you want to achieve.

The FAA accepts ALL previous training, anywhere in ICAO, towards the logbook requirements for the PPL, IR, CPL, ME, ATPL, whatever. Some UK based FAA training outfits will say otherwise because they like to make money

So, the expression "conduct instruction for the FAA Instrument Rating in the UK" is not really applicable.

So, one can train towards any FAA license or rating with a JAA FI, in a G-reg! Yes, it's true. It would pay to write next to each logbook entry what exactly it was, in FAA terms, e.g. if doing a 250nm x/c flight it's best to make that clear. That flight needs to be airways and needs to have 3 landings with different approaches, and much fun has been had debating whether all 3 need to be done on the same day, and a logbook entry specifying exactly what was done (NDB, LOC, VOR) will be very helpful.

But the student's logbook must be endorsed as ready for the checkride, and this must be done by an FAA CFI/CFII. He also needs to have has 3 hrs of instruction in the 60 days preceeding the checkride, and traditionally this is done by the FAA instructor signing the logbook, so for the last few hours you do need to be an FAA CFI.

There are bigger issues with FAA IR training in the UK however.

Start at the back end: the FAA examiner (whether a DPE or an FAA salaried one; the latter is now very rare outside the US) will require an N-reg for the checkride. This means needing the DfT permission, which in turn requires the candidate to be an owner or part-owner (see the DfT website). So, one can't run a "school" on N-reg planes, unless the DfT gives permission which is possible but not likely. You can really train owner-pilots only. The alternative is to do the checkride outside UK airspace.

You need to get DfT permission for any paid training in a foreign reg plane in UK airspace. This is readily granted, and is free. The alternative is to not charge for the training, or do the training flights outside UK airspace.

For the PPL or the IR (not for the CPL) the FAA CFI/CFII needs to be registered with TSA even if UK resident. But if the training is done in a G-reg by a JAA FI, and the flights just happen to meet FAA requirements, TSA doesn't come into it

There are plenty of FAA CFIs around the UK. The hard bit is finding an examiner. Over the years, loads of people have been up blind alleys, shelling out £££ for training and then not being able to get the checkride, and having to go to the USA to finish off. And don't I know it

[bunnywabbit]

I do not know all the rules and regs, but speak to Seawings at Southend I phoned and found them helpful.

[TKPAP]

Help me please!

Having read your piece about doing an FAA IR in the UK i was wondering if you had any advice for me. I'm trying to do my FAA IR at the moment, i'm training on my own N reg aircraft but i think i'm being completely had by a particular flying school.
To begin with when I enquired about doing my FAA IR with this flying school - the owner told me hers was the Only place in the UK to do it. Also, that i should not go to america as had been planned but to pay significantly more but be assured a top rate FAA instrument instruction.
Being as i see now fairly monumentally stupid i just turned up when she told me and began.
I now find myself in a complete state as i have only had an FAA instructor for three days before he went on holiday and since then have been given two CAA IMC instructors at VAST expense each day. The first one was completely useless and since been fired from the flying school, the second is good but i'm sure because he's told me himself that the price i'm paying is vastly inflated.
But. I've already done 20hrs so am half way through.
And obviously i need to find an FAA CFI to check me out before the exam, how do i do that? You said there were lots in the Uk but how do you find one?
As what i want to do is go home (Cirencester - i am 300 miles away at the moment) and continue the rest of my training with a truly well qualified good IR instructor CAA or FAA - obviously FAA would be better.
Do you have any suggestions to help me find a good FAA instructor near home?
I really would hugely appreciate any help as not being part of the flying school/instructor network i don't have a clue where to look. More than anything i love flying and am desperate to continue but at the moment it's looking rather dismal.

[athonite]

Faa Ir

TKPAP check your pm's

[BestAviation]

IO540 is right on the money with his/her post - the only thing you have to be careful about with a JAA IMC/IR instructor is that he/she fully understands the FAA system. Although many things are the same and basic instrument flying can really be done by any instrument instructor there are a few differences from FAA to JAA that you need to know about. Remember; the examiner (if you can find one) will hold you to the FAA Practical Test Standard.

And at the end of the day you still need an FAA CFII to sign you off AND he needs to fly a minimum of 3 hours with you within 60 days of your skills test - and THAT requires a TSA approval - either way you look at it there is no way to get an FAA IR as a non-American without the TSA approval. The TSA clearly states that any license or rating that will further an applicant’s flying skills require TSA clearance PRIOR to any training being started. It doesn't matter if it's the first three or the last three hours of your course - you still have to pay your $100 and have your fingerprints taken. The TSA goes on to list these licenses/ratings as being the PPL, IR and the MEL. (note the CPL and CFI/CFII/MEI does not require TSA approval).

It is irrelevant if the training is done in G-reg or N-reg. The N-reg is only required for the skills test.

Happy Landings!

[IO540]

The above is correct, AFAIK.

In practice I would strongly recommend anyone doing this to fly with an FAA CFI/CFII sometime - even if you are just popping up in some G-reg (you do have a UK PPL, haven't you? ) and he is an unpaid passenger.

Anybody can (and must) read the FAA PTS book, but an FAA instructor will know the US way of doing things.

There is no problem with an FAA instructor to obtain the TSA registration, and I know of UK FAA instructors who do have this.

Getting TSA as a student is also no problem. The only real gotcha is that the TSA reg is for a specific school or instructor, and if you need to change this you may need to pay the money again. I had to pay it 3 times; once because the U.S. school was not Part 141 and thus could not be in SEVIS and thus could not issue an I-20 and thus I could not get the Visa; once because the school delivered the I-20 to a UK based FAA instructor who was out of the country at the time and the document got lost; 3rd time I got lucky and did the IR in Arizona.

The only real waste of time is the day spent at the US Embassy getting the Visa.... and the Visa is valid for a particular school only!!

I have some detailed notes on the process - email me if interested.

Currently, the standalone FAA PPL/IR can be done wholly in the UK. I know of a very decent setup which can do it.

[Julian]

The FAA accepts ALL previous training, anywhere in ICAO, towards the logbook requirements for the PPL, IR, CPL, ME, ATPL, whatever. Some UK based FAA training outfits will say otherwise because they like to make money

This is true and is usually referred to as "training as required" in the schools I have trained with, however, you are required to meet certain requirements before you are allowed to undertake the checkride. This includes the usual various xcountry, night hours, etc (sorry dont have exact requirements with me). I believe as part of this that there is also a minimum number of hours you must have undertaken with an FAA certified FI as part of the IR course.

Your other problem will be taking the checkride, you will either have to go to the US to take it or I have heard of exmainers coming over here for a couple of weeks at a time but believe they charge quite a bit for the test!

J.

[johnnypick]

I believe as part of this that there is also a minimum number of hours you must have undertaken with an FAA certified FI as part of the IR course.

10 hours signed off by a CFII.

[BestAviation]

10 hours signed off by a CFII.

WRONG!!!!!! It's 15 hours


61.65 details the requirements for an FAA IR

61.65 (d)(i) mentions 15 hours from an authorized instructor - The FAA will accept any training done with a JAA instructor (even as part of an IMC course!) to count towards these 15 hours provided they are done under a JAA/CAA (ICAO) approved course (IR or IMC in the UK)..... you’d be a star though if you manage to get to the FAA IR standard in only 15 hours of dual instruction.

There is a major difference in the JAA and the FAA system in the fact that under JAA the schools carry the approvals/restrictions in what courses they can teach while in the FAA system the approvals/restrictions are carried by the instructor (under part 61).

Any other instrument time done with a JAA instructor (ie. ex 19 - instrument appreciation for your JAA PPL) can be counted towards the total 40 hours you need as described in 61.65 (2).

I'll include the link to the regulations for those who are interested http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....2.1.4&idno=14

In theory you only need to fly once with an FAA CFII - to obtain the endorsement for a skill test (provided you do a good job on your flight =)) but you may find that most (me included) won't give you the sign off based on one flight performance unless that instructor has been able to follow your progress through the course. Remember that you also need a CFII to endorse your for the theoretical test.

Obtaining TSA approval for an FAA CFI/CFII is relatively straight forward. I registered online for it and a few hours later a guy from the New York IFO called to ask a few questions...and that was it =)


Happy flying!

[IO540]

Yes............ the "authorised instructor" bit has been done to death and this is what is used by some money-grabbing UK based FAA training operations to say to candidates that they must fly a minimum 15hr package with them.

This was very much in vogue during 2004/2005 but I have lately noticed that most no longer run this little scam. There is one well known chappie who still does, but then he lives in his own universe which only occassionally intersects ours

The instructor can be any instructor anywhere in the world who is authorised to do the training which he did.

This is how you get your previous UK- or whatever-based training admitted towards the FAA license/rating. But as I said above, there needs to be no ambiguity as to what each flight was - for example if you claim to have done a 250nm x/c then it needs to be between two airports which can be obviously shown to be at least 250nm apart.

As to what training is required to reach the checkride standard... this will obviously vary. Prior to me doing the IR in the USA, I had IIRC about 70 hours IFR (logged as actual IMC with the autopilot disengaged) which included about 25 hours from the IMCR training. I had also been doing airways flights (as PU/T) around Europe and was able to fly any SID, STAR, IAP, enroute, do all the flight planning, etc. so for practical purposes I already knew what an IR holder would have actually needed to know.

However I still needed most of two weeks i.e. about 25 hours' hard flying under the hood, to reach the FAA checkride standard. This was the hardest flying by far I had ever done in my life. The hood goes on seconds after takeoff and you spend the whole flight doing vectors, then banging VOR/DME/LOC/ILS approaches, every one to minima, and you don't know if you will land or G/A until you are AT the minima and then the instructor lets you know. One would be a fool to listen to the scores of idiots who say the FAA IR comes on the back of a fag packet and is no harder than the UK IMCR. It is MUCH MUCH harder.

Nevertheless, a competent pilot who already knows how to do it all should be able to do it in 2 weeks, or 3 weeks if training on a modern G1000 equipped plane.

Due to the difficulty in the flying I would always recommend people to get all their ducks in line (exams, etc) before they commit to either going to the USA or booking an examiner in the UK.

The visiting examiner I know charges $600 per checkride, plus a share of expenses. This is IMHO very reasonable, looking at how much money and aggro you save not going to the USA, and the benefit of doing it all in your own plane in incalculable. If you can't afford this, you won't be doing any IFR flying anyway.

[porridge]

RE: Booking a FAA Examiner to come to the UK

For those who are not aware, it won't be possible to book a FAA to come to the UK to do the test anymore as the New York IFO have appointed a DPE in the UK, so applicants will be referred to the local person from now on. See this link: http://www.businessair.us/index.html

[IO540]

Before going down the above mentioned route, I suggest verifying the training requirements and the resulting costs

[englishal]

FAA flight test at £500...phew! Money for old rope.

Frankly with the prices listed on the previous web site, I'd jump on a £350 flight to LA and spend a week there, flying 6 hours per day to bang it out (flight test $400, no expenses, CFII $50 per hour, G1000 Approved Advanced sim $95 per hour).....My mate bought an ATC510 sim from Ebay for about $400 - all fully loggable time as it was an approved ATD. The ATC710 doesn't look much better.

The best thing you can do is find yourself a friendly FAA CFII in the UK, and pay him for the groundschool and endorsements, and as long as they fly with you for free, no laws are being broken. Then head to the USA to finish off.

[IO540]

When I said "check training requirements" I meant "check that your logbook entries will be accepted before committing yourself".

The less I say the better but let's say that certain UK businesses have been rather less keen to accept previous training than others..........

[On the Spot]

Faa Ir

I did not have the luxury of a UK based plane but spent a couple of weeks getting my IR in California and would recomend the process over trying to do it here in part or whole despite the fact that the past "time" counts.
As for cost it can vary - I paid $130 for my TSA approval and another $40 for fingerprints that can rise to over $100 if you are unlucky and add a week to the process if you don't go to a location with online submission (TSA offices are good).
No charges for approaches and no need to call up three weeks in advance for a slot- I reckon that the flight there and the cash to get through the TSA are more than offset by the savings in that alone.

A big benefit was an FAA approved advanced training device that was loggable and made the process of repeating some manouvres much more efficient bot on the wallet and in learning.

I would disagree with IO540 on the 2 weeks if you know your stuff beforehand and 3 weeks on a glass panel. I think in my case it is more likely the other way around. I had basic knowledge before I went and learned on a glass panel which I felt assisted by reducing the workload while it was sinking in so that I accomplished the 35 hours additional time required in two weeks. I am conscious that I now need some time making it all happen in steam world and guess that might be the extra week that IO540 refers to.

Have fun.

check your PMs too.

[Romeo Romeo]

I am planning on getting an FAA Instrument Rating in the UK. I am in the process of buying an N reg, airways equipped aeroplane and I read this thread with interest.

From what I read:-

• All flight training counts whether it’s from a CAA or FAA instructor, so my IMC rating training counts and I can do most of my other training with a CAA instructor.
• It’s sensible to do a few hours with an FAA instructor because firstly they need to agree that I’m ready for the checkride and to get up to speed with what will be examined in the checkride and the FAA way of doing things.
• I can do the checkride in the UK. I believe there’s an examiner over here now, isn’t there – if not, I can import one on a temporary basis!
• I can do my training in my FAA aeroplane as long as the DofT agree (and apparently they will).

Am I about right with this?

Can anyone recommend an establishment for training with an FAA examiner – and any advice on which to avoid? I am based in the Midlands, so around there would be great.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

RR

[IO540]

RR you sent me an email to which I replied but your email address is duff which prob99 means you won't see any PMs here You may have fun communicating with the TSA in this way ...

[B2N2]

However I still needed most of two weeks i.e. about 25 hours' hard flying under the hood, to reach the FAA checkride standard. This was the hardest flying by far I had ever done in my life. The hood goes on seconds after takeoff and you spend the whole flight doing vectors, then banging VOR/DME/LOC/ILS approaches, every one to minima, and you don't know if you will land or G/A until you are AT the minima and then the instructor lets you know. One would be a fool to listen to the scores of idiots who say the FAA IR comes on the back of a fag packet and is no harder than the UK IMCR. It is MUCH MUCH harder.

Thank you IO-540, finally somebody who tells it like it is.