teaching stalls

[jamestkirk]

Course quality

Totally agree. I did mine with a ex-RAF CFS instructor at GWC, who was excellent. We were stalling/spinning the Tomahawk all day long. To be fair though, i do have an aerobatic ticket, so someone inadvertantly throwing me into a spin is not a great shock.

You do have to be absolutely comfortable to let the student try and recover correctly or incorrectly and that only comes with your own flying and instructing experience.

We had an instructor here many years ago , who i was told, was (i quote)terrified of fully developed stalls.

He/she got an airline job so maybe thats the secret. Sorry, bit cynical there!

It's a bit dissapointing that there are instructors out there that won't teach the whole subject of spinning/stalling; at least its none of us on this thread.

Apologies if I have gone off at a tangent on this thread, thus getting away from the original post.

JTK

[foxmoth]

On the UH Advanced PPL course we spend quite a lot of time covering stalling in every configuration and attitude, I usually find most PPLs have not touched this exercise since their licence so not surprisingly many are rusty and a bit wary of stalling. I would recommend all Pilots get up to speed on stalls (with a competent instructor if you are in any way unsure of what to do) then keep current by practicing stalls when you are out with nothing much else to do (though not of course if you have a nervous pax.)

[BEagle]

Dan - RTFQ!! The discussion here is about incipient stalling. Not many SEP aircraft will exhibit buffet as the first warning...

Incidentally, I used to refuse point blank to use the stupid CFS 'signs' and 'symptoms' of a stall, having had to instruct medical students. Instead I use:

Stall warning: "Keep doing what you're doing and I'm probably going to stall!"

Stall ident: "I just have bŁoody stalled, idiot!"

Mind you, ba$tard UK Wx and the day job means I haven't been able to do any instructing for yonks!

[Mad Girl]

God....I love my instructor.

slow flight to stall...either incipient or full stall and then into spins (in a rated aircraft) and then...just to make sure I've got it...I have to look away or close my eyes with hands and feet off controls... he puts the airplane where he wants it and says "recover", open my eyes and I could be in any configuration to recover...including inverted - I'm left to work it out and sort it out on my own!!!!

Nothing like a good work out from a "strong" instructor to keep you on your toes - Hopefully I'll still be alive in years to come.



(Have to admit to a bit of masochism - I actually requested the contents of the above session we had in an aeros aircraft!!!!!! and I think I'm going to be doing the same every 6 months or so - It's good for me!!)

[VFE]

You wanna watch the aircraft isn't the only thing he puts wherever he likes...

Sorry, I need the number of that innuendo rehab clinic again.... ASAP.

VFE.

[pilgrim flyer]

Stick position

Most PPL's that I fly with are unaware that:

1 Stalling the wing is directly related to stick position

2 That releasing back pressure is generally more desireable, controlled and efficient than stuffing stick forward

3 That if pulling the stick back and unable to pitch 'up' then the wing is stalled. Whatever else would appear to be the case

4 That flying out of a stall recovery with full power and the warner going result in losing much less height

5 That stalling nose high, ball into the turn usually won't result in a spin

6 That stalling nose low, ball out of the turn alomost certainly will

7 It is a far better idea to train and practise for this than not.....

PF

[foxmoth]

1 Stalling the wing is directly related to stick position

Pull the nose up to 70 degrees, put the stick in the middle at 10kts above stall, then tell me stalling is directly related to stick position!

[pilgrim flyer]

I do

Hi Fox

I do it quite ofen in gliders actually in demonstrating recovery from winch launch failure.

And in a Pitts I pitch up 90 do a 'stall turn' but never stall the wing (unless I cock it up when you can tell that you have stalled the wing by the ensuing auto rotation).

PF

[foxmoth]

(unless I cock it up when you can tell that you have stalled the wing by the ensuing auto rotation).

So where is the stick when you cock it up and autorotate? certainly if you are not quite vertical and do not put the rudder in you WILL stall with the stick cental.My first inverted spin was a Pitts from a manouver including a stall turn and the stick was only just forward of center. As far as winch launch recovery goes, a long time since I did this but I seem to remember the stick going well forward of center for this and speed a little higher, the point I make is that you certainly CAN get the aircraft to stall with the stick in different places.

[Croqueteer]

The point is, Foxmoth, when you pitch up to 70o the nose will drop long before you reach 10kts, or if you do it rapidly, the wing will stall (Like a flick-roll entry) in either case, you will be going downhill rapidly, but if the stick is central, THE WING WILL NOT BE STALLED! Of course you cannot regain level flight until such time as the speed is enough to provide the lift required. TRY IT! Also note that if you pitch up rapidly, the stick is now aft of my line on the cockpit wall. Speak to someone who does areo comps at advanced level.

[foxmoth]

f you do it rapidly, the wing will stall (Like a flick-roll entry) in either case, you will be going downhill rapidly, but if the stick is central, THE WING WILL NOT BE STALLED!

Sorry, you can't have it both ways! in one bit you say "the wing will stall (like a flick roll entry)" then you say it will not be stalled. I agree that the nose will be going down and may recover from the stall but you CAN stall with the stick central - ask anyone who has cocked up a stall turn by not getting properly vertical and being late with the rudder - they will have stick central and the WING WILL STALL, yes it will end up going down and will not need much more to recover but it will still have stalled. Also if you do a high nose up stall and centralise the stick just before the stall you can still stall (I will admit 10kts before, the aircraft MAY recover nose down before stalling but if slow enough, the increase in alpha from the nose going down can actually CAUSE the wing to stall), though the entry will have had the stick back as you say.

[Croqueteer]

You are being a bit obtuse here, Fox. If you flick stall, at that moment the wing is stalled, but if you then centre the stick, the wing is NOT stalled. In a "stall turn" or in American a "Hammerhead", although the aircraft might be stationary, if the stick is neutral, the wing is not stalled! I have done my comp aeros and know a bit about cocked up stall turns! Anyway, my original point was simple recognition of being dangerously close to a stall in an everyday situation when the workload is high. You are knit-picking!

[FlyingForFun]

1 Stalling the wing is directly related to stick position

Aerobatics aside, there are other factors which affect the stick position in which the aircraft will stall: flap position and power selected being the first two which spring to mind.

FFF
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[foxmoth]

One reason I do not like the Stalling = stick position is I think this will not hold true in icing conditions,yes I know you should not get into this but it CAN happen, your well taught student now sits there saying "I can't be stalled, the stick isnt far enough back". Fine, teach it as a possible indicator but it should not be what you use to tell if you are stalled or not.

[Croqueteer]

Flap position and speed don't make much difference to the stalling position of the stick. Try it! I also said this is only one indicator in the armoury of keeping safe, it's certainly not the be-all and end-all!

[VFE]

Never heard anyone mention the stick position = stall theory before.

I have often said to a student:

"Look how far back the control column is...!"

or.....

"Come on, pull ya big jessy.....pull... get that stick back....!"

etc... during a stalling lesson but have never said:

"Oi Bloggs, that's where ya stick's gonna be when ya stall".

Seems odd to me that does, but if it keeps ya punters out of oak panelled rooms then fair enough!

VFE.

[energie]

power on stalls

I hope it's ok for me to ask a question here, I feel that it's relevant and hopefully could add to this thread

I had my 2nd lesson on stalls today, specifcally on power on stalls. I am having a lot of problem recovering from the stalls

What is happening is that I am having problem controlling the yaw with the rudder. I am entering the power on stalls from 2100RPM. Once the airspeed is stable and i'm not ascending and descending, I began applying aft pressure on the controls. I do this smoothly until the stall horn sounded, then I gave it a bit more aft pressure just to tip it over the edge. As soon as it stalls, i apply full power. Because I am anticipating yaw that comes from the full power application, I stepped on the right rudder. But either i'm stepping on it too hard, too early, too late, too soft, I just don't know. One of the wings would drop and i would be attempting the recovery sideways.

My instinct would kick in and i would try to turn it back by turning the aileron the opposite way. This often makes it worse! At the same time I would stop the rudder pressure because I am instinctively unsure if the rudder pressure is actually causing my bad recovery!

This is very frustrating. Does anyone have any suggestion on how I can effectively control the yaw in this case?

thanks!
E.

[Whopity]

Where are you looking? Do you know what YAW looks like? You can only control the YAW if you can see and identify it. Your instructor should demonstrate this too you, then teach you how to control it by following through, and finally let you have a go.

[FlyingForFun]

Energie,

First of all, congrats on finding an instructor who's teaching you these things... you should hopefully come out of your training understanding what the stall is all about!

The key here is to find a visual feature, and keep the aircraft pointing at it. Since the nose is going to quite high up in the air for a power-on stall, a cloud would be ideal. Although a little bit of anticipation will help, what you really want to do is to do whatever it takes with the rudder pedals to keep that cloud in the same place in the windscreen.

FFF
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[TurboJ]

I have taken PPL holders on check out rides and asked then to fully stall the aircraft. On more than one occasion they kept recovering on the stall warner.

On closer questioning they said that they have never fully stalled the aircraft and/or experienced a wing drop, which is pretty likely with 30 degrees of flap and 1500 rpm, therefore never recovered from one.

James T

I would be interested on your views given your comments quoted above.

I used to demonstrate a fully developed stall with all the symptoms including 'nose nod.' I also admittedly, frequently, got my students to recover from a fully developed stall until I read the following:

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/G-FORS%203-06.pdf

In a nutshell it recommends that fully developed stalls which result in 'oscillatory stalls' or 'nose nod' are not necessary and inappropriate in flight training.

Since then and in the light of this report, my CFI has recommended we do not demonstrate fully developed stalls which result in oscillatory motion and students should be taught the symptoms of approaching the stall and how to recover.

Regardless of whether I agree with this or not, I value my job and therefore have to comply.

Having read about your experiences that you posted above it would indicate that my FTO is not alone in this but schools merely complying with aaib recommendations.