Pissed CFI's Instructors & Students
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Pissed CFI's Instructors & Students
Got your attention GOOD
What do you do if your Instructor has a tremor or repeatly seems to be the worse for wear.
Also what do you do if the CFI has a tremor & you are the student or an FI(r) needing to be signed off.
I was completely taken back today by the laid back attitude adopted at the Flying club I visited today. The Guy was either pissed or in withdrawal.
What do you do if your Instructor has a tremor or repeatly seems to be the worse for wear.
Also what do you do if the CFI has a tremor & you are the student or an FI(r) needing to be signed off.
I was completely taken back today by the laid back attitude adopted at the Flying club I visited today. The Guy was either pissed or in withdrawal.
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I might be a little careful about 'diagnosing' inebriation or other such conditions...
The old line goes that only two classes of people are allowed to say someone is 'drunk': Medical practitioners, because they have been trained to do so, and Police Officers, on the grounds that 'it takes one to know one'.
Although obviously just a funny line, the first part of the statement is true, and is worth knowing when you're commanding a public transport aircraft, because you need one or other type of person to help you if you try to throw someone off for being 'drunk'.
However, whilst in no way condoning flying under the influence, I would opine that the rate of accidents or serious incidents in which crew member inebriation was a factor, is extremely low.
The old line goes that only two classes of people are allowed to say someone is 'drunk': Medical practitioners, because they have been trained to do so, and Police Officers, on the grounds that 'it takes one to know one'.
Although obviously just a funny line, the first part of the statement is true, and is worth knowing when you're commanding a public transport aircraft, because you need one or other type of person to help you if you try to throw someone off for being 'drunk'.
However, whilst in no way condoning flying under the influence, I would opine that the rate of accidents or serious incidents in which crew member inebriation was a factor, is extremely low.
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I had a CFI who rolled in an hour late for his "lesson" which was a glorified cross country with the students wife!
The CFI boasted about being on the piss until 4-5 that morning and of being completely cut.
Next day i learned that he mistook a set of farm buildings for Norwich airport, on the return leg got so lost 121.5 were contacted and in the process busted Stanstead,Luton and Brizes zones.
He now works for a rather well known training organisation based on the south coast involved in a pre airline training scheme. It's not the first time i've met this sort of person who has all the right buzz words etc but doesn't do the basics right(not drink,pay staff,turn up on time etc)
The students wife who was sat in the back was terrified as she listened to the CFI and student trying to find out where they were and refused ever to fly a GA aircraft again.
Criminal
ps yes i agree i should have said more at the time, and am still encoutering the same problems with the same types who insist on the 1950's lets get pissed hurrah attitude, isnt it funny sort of thing
The CFI boasted about being on the piss until 4-5 that morning and of being completely cut.
Next day i learned that he mistook a set of farm buildings for Norwich airport, on the return leg got so lost 121.5 were contacted and in the process busted Stanstead,Luton and Brizes zones.
He now works for a rather well known training organisation based on the south coast involved in a pre airline training scheme. It's not the first time i've met this sort of person who has all the right buzz words etc but doesn't do the basics right(not drink,pay staff,turn up on time etc)
The students wife who was sat in the back was terrified as she listened to the CFI and student trying to find out where they were and refused ever to fly a GA aircraft again.
Criminal
ps yes i agree i should have said more at the time, and am still encoutering the same problems with the same types who insist on the 1950's lets get pissed hurrah attitude, isnt it funny sort of thing
Last edited by tonker; 5th Aug 2004 at 11:35.
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Difficult situation, as always.
Risky and it does depend on the personality of the individual(s) concerned but you could try having a quiet word with them and voicing your concerns. If that doesn't work you could give them a gentle warning that you're not prepared to condone their actions any longer.
Failing any measure of positive change from them, you could always resort to the last option and get on the blower to the local police and tell them you know of a working pilot who you believe to be under the influence. Regardless of whether they're actually flying or not, the Railways & Transport Safety Act 2003 Part 5 also applies to Flight Crew when they turn up for duty (ancillary functions), with an alcohol limit of 20mg per 100 ml blood as opposed to driving which is 80mg per 100ml blood. That would mean prosecution for the individual and I'm not going to go anywhere near the Health & Safety laws that would be broken by the Club.
However, this would not be the preferred choice as improvement is always preferable to enforcement but the chances are that people who insist on flying whilst impaired through drink or drugs are one day going to kill themselves, their passengers or someone else on the ground.
As for doctors / police being qualifed to say that someone is drunk I believe that also to be correct, the criteria being:
Glazed eyes
Unsteady gait
Slurred speech
Breath smelling of alcohol
Realistically, though, most people can tell whether someone is ratted or severely hung over and whilst they may not be able to legally enforce it they can bring it to the attention of someone who can.
Saying all that, I don't think the problem is prevalent in GA..............or am I missing something?
Risky and it does depend on the personality of the individual(s) concerned but you could try having a quiet word with them and voicing your concerns. If that doesn't work you could give them a gentle warning that you're not prepared to condone their actions any longer.
Failing any measure of positive change from them, you could always resort to the last option and get on the blower to the local police and tell them you know of a working pilot who you believe to be under the influence. Regardless of whether they're actually flying or not, the Railways & Transport Safety Act 2003 Part 5 also applies to Flight Crew when they turn up for duty (ancillary functions), with an alcohol limit of 20mg per 100 ml blood as opposed to driving which is 80mg per 100ml blood. That would mean prosecution for the individual and I'm not going to go anywhere near the Health & Safety laws that would be broken by the Club.
However, this would not be the preferred choice as improvement is always preferable to enforcement but the chances are that people who insist on flying whilst impaired through drink or drugs are one day going to kill themselves, their passengers or someone else on the ground.
As for doctors / police being qualifed to say that someone is drunk I believe that also to be correct, the criteria being:
Glazed eyes
Unsteady gait
Slurred speech
Breath smelling of alcohol
Realistically, though, most people can tell whether someone is ratted or severely hung over and whilst they may not be able to legally enforce it they can bring it to the attention of someone who can.
Saying all that, I don't think the problem is prevalent in GA..............or am I missing something?
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Is this prevalent??
A few more experiences required.
Is this guy under the influence of Alcohol absolutely no doubt
People seem interested but not particularly outraged, which is kind of what the club tolerates.
It seems that everyone knows he has a drink problem and he has for years.
I do think it is important because this Guy teaches young Guys and Girls to fly.
I have to say that this needs to be treated like Driving.
I suspect he will have his cuff felt shortly.
A few more experiences required.
Is this guy under the influence of Alcohol absolutely no doubt
People seem interested but not particularly outraged, which is kind of what the club tolerates.
It seems that everyone knows he has a drink problem and he has for years.
I do think it is important because this Guy teaches young Guys and Girls to fly.
I have to say that this needs to be treated like Driving.
I suspect he will have his cuff felt shortly.
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I have to say that this needs to be treated like Driving.
Firstly, I enjoy a drink as much as anyone else and from time to time a good session.
But many of us in the UK see the apathy and complacency with which drink driving often gets treated and not just by the public but also publicans.
How often do we see the same cars in the pub car parks for hours on end whilst the drivers sit at the bar getting slowly loaded. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but I can honestly say I have never heard a landlord refuse to serve someone they know is over the limit and who they know will drive home. I am afraid their ostrich-like attitude may bite them in the posterior severely one day.
I know there are those who will argue that it is not the landlord's responsibility to police the drink-driving laws but surely they should be taking some responsibility in the (potential) chain of events.
I do feel the people at the sharp end need to be a bit more pro-active.
And this should include the CFI at your club. I'm assuming he/she is included in the people who know of the problem.
Talk to a lawyer about the potential problems your club could face if something went pear-shaped - that should make them sit up and take notice - not to mention the damage to GA from the tabloid headline 'Student Pilot Killed By Drunk Instructor'.
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There's only one solution, refer the matter to the police and the CAA, and you should do it immediately.
It sounds a brutal suggestion, but anyone who in aviation who is prepared to turn up for work with any alcohol in their system is not worthy of a job in the profession.
It might be the catalyst to either his rehabilitation or retirement, but more importantly, it may save someones life.
It sounds a brutal suggestion, but anyone who in aviation who is prepared to turn up for work with any alcohol in their system is not worthy of a job in the profession.
It might be the catalyst to either his rehabilitation or retirement, but more importantly, it may save someones life.
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I totally endorse NikNaks comments. Individuals who are in a position of trust, and responsible for the safety off all around them should be duly reported to the relevant authorities if they are considered to be under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
They should certainly not be operating within the flying community, where their influence may degrade the safety culture of other aircrew. I would no more instruct whilst I was drunk or 'sobering up' than I would drive. Bad Show all round!
Rant over!
They should certainly not be operating within the flying community, where their influence may degrade the safety culture of other aircrew. I would no more instruct whilst I was drunk or 'sobering up' than I would drive. Bad Show all round!
Rant over!
Moderator
I remember a horrible lesson years ago, the instructor was fetched from his lunch at the bar...he proceeded to belch whisky fumes, hiccup and chain smoke (yes, in a C152) throughout the lesson.I shudder to think what could have happened, I was pre-solo and wouldn't have been able to do anything if he'd passed out, which seemed likely.
I suppose the right thing to do would have been to complain to the CFI, but he had staggered back to the bar with all his airline cronies and I was far too intimidated to speak to anyone else there about it.
He got fired soon after because someone else did have the guts to complain.
These days things like liability are better appreciated. If you think your instructor is pissed, just refuse to fly with them, and don't feel intimidated as I did.
I suppose the right thing to do would have been to complain to the CFI, but he had staggered back to the bar with all his airline cronies and I was far too intimidated to speak to anyone else there about it.
He got fired soon after because someone else did have the guts to complain.
These days things like liability are better appreciated. If you think your instructor is pissed, just refuse to fly with them, and don't feel intimidated as I did.
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It is not always easy just at first sight to determine whether someone is under the influence.
And it is very easy for us old hands to state that we would not fly with these characters if we suspected that they were under the influence.
However as young and impressionable PPL studes this would be more difficult to do.
If you do think your instructor is incapable refuse to fly with them and if necessary just take the coward's way out and feign an illness!
After that pluck up courage to report the matter to those in charge at the school/flying club.
FD
And it is very easy for us old hands to state that we would not fly with these characters if we suspected that they were under the influence.
However as young and impressionable PPL studes this would be more difficult to do.
If you do think your instructor is incapable refuse to fly with them and if necessary just take the coward's way out and feign an illness!
After that pluck up courage to report the matter to those in charge at the school/flying club.
FD
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Hmmmmm
A new poster with 3 posts to their name.
From the Glasgow area where it is documented in another thread that there is a lot of backstabbing going on at the moment.
Posted at 0130 - after the pub perhaps?
Sounds like someone with a chip on their shoulder who hasn't the guts to sort it out in a decent fashion.
A new poster with 3 posts to their name.
From the Glasgow area where it is documented in another thread that there is a lot of backstabbing going on at the moment.
Posted at 0130 - after the pub perhaps?
a few more experiences required
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NorthSouth
Kinda surprised you haven't had your ass "moderated" for that comment.
Scottish light aviation isn't big enough for people to go mudslinging, everyone gets hit by it.
Enagage brain prior to posting...
Scottish light aviation isn't big enough for people to go mudslinging, everyone gets hit by it.
Enagage brain prior to posting...
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ComJam
Not a slinging of mud, merely a deduction from the original post, similar to silverknapper. Personally I'm hugely sceptical of the whole thing. I've never met anyone in flying who has given any hint of accepting or turning a blind eye to drinking and flying.
Scottish light aviation isn't big enough for people to go mudslinging
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I find it pretty difficult to comprehend the statement that there is NO acceptance of drinking. I am afraid there is and we have all seen it if we look.
Times are a changing and Alcohol is less tolerated.
Drinkers can be nice Guys
We do not like shopping people as the phrase goes
However lets get your head out of the sand or out from your a**e. It is still going on and not that infrequently. If you have never seen a drinker flying open your eyes (They drive too!)
Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen Inverness Cumbernauld it could be anywhere. Who ever it is Knows who he is, lets see if he can stay sober.
and yes it is 01.00 again & no I haven't been to the pub.
Perhaps I am one of those poor sods who works for a living in the wee hours.
Times are a changing and Alcohol is less tolerated.
Drinkers can be nice Guys
We do not like shopping people as the phrase goes
However lets get your head out of the sand or out from your a**e. It is still going on and not that infrequently. If you have never seen a drinker flying open your eyes (They drive too!)
Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen Inverness Cumbernauld it could be anywhere. Who ever it is Knows who he is, lets see if he can stay sober.
and yes it is 01.00 again & no I haven't been to the pub.
Perhaps I am one of those poor sods who works for a living in the wee hours.
