Milan_

Hi,

I'm looking for some advice on how to become a flight test engineer.

I'm 23 years old and I live in Belgium. I have a bachelor's and master's degree in electronic engineering (4 years in Belgium) and I'm currently getting my bachelor's degree in physics, after which I plan on getting a master's degree in astrophysics (additional 4 years).

When I was studying electronics, I took some courses in avionics. Right now I'm taking courses in fluid dynamics and some elective courses in aerospace engineering.

After this I plan on getting my PhD in mechanical engineering, more specifically computational fluid dynamics and it's applications to aviation (this research group: Fluid mechanics ? Department of Flow, Heat and Combustion Mechanics ? Ghent University), during which I will get a master's degree in aerospace engineering through an online university (preferably Embry Riddle).

All of this may seem like thinking pretty far ahead, but in Belgium this is possible. Studying is practically free and getting a PhD is a pretty well paid job. In addition, doctoral positions at the research group i mentioned are well within my grasp considering my current grades and a few talks I had with my professors. And getting an extra master through an online education during your PhD is also no exception lately.

I have my PPL and I'm in good shape.

Now I would like to become a flight test engineer. I assume this is possible with just an aerospace engineering degree and getting some experience. But I would like some formal training in this area. I have searched the internet and found a few schools. But I have no idea how, in practice, people get into these schools. I assume you have to be sponsored or be extremely rich.

In particular I would like to know more about the Empire Test Pilot School's FTE program. How hard is it to get in? Would it be possible for someone with my qualifications? (assuming everything I mentioned went according to plan)
How hard is it to complete the program once you are in?

I know ETPS is extremely competitive and the chances of me ever getting in are very small. I also know I can't get in on my own and need support and sponsoring from my government, employer or university. But I want to know how people actually get into this type of school. Also any career advice to push me in the right direction is very welcome.

Sorry for the long post, I didn't anticipate it would be this long.

Thanks in advance!

Genghis the Engineer

Greetings Milan. I'll see if I can offer some useful thoughts - I've done the FTE thing and the PhD thing, and nowadays work as a research manager, occasional Test Pilot, and even more occasional FTE spanning airborne research and more traditional flight testing.

I won't talk you out of working in flight testing, as in my opinion it's one of the most downright sexy dields of work in existence. You cannot possibly know too much about aeronautical engineering - take every possible elective .

Right, here's where I think you're going off-piste a bit. A PhD is a useful qualifications in terms of the research skills it gives you - I really enjoyed mine and use the skillset most days.

However, don't muck about with fluid mechanics - I think that I know one person ever who has managed to get into flight testing from a PhD in fluid mechanics - and he had to do an ATPL as well to achieve that (plus it was experimental fluid mechanics, not CFD). If you are going to go the PhD route, you want to direct yourself towards something much more closely allied to the design and operation of aircraft. Basically either aircraft systems or flight mechanics. And make quite sure it's an experimental PhD, none of this mucking around with computer models - that won't get you into flight testing. [I managed to do my PhD in the development of flight test techniques - that worked particularly well, but I'd already done a number of years as an FTE, so it was much more possible than it might be for you.]

Also be aware that most people in industry don't know what a PhD is for, or what a PhD holder can do for them. So whilst the skills will be useful, the qualification itself is worth little in flight test.

I'm not convinced about MSc and PhD in parallel myself, I'd go MSc then PhD. But, if the system keeps paying you for long enough to get both at the same time, what the heck, do it !

But again - if you want to get into flight testing, you want an MSc with a real direction towards some combination of flying qualities, flight testing and/or aerospace systems.

Excellent - the more flying experience the better. Keep that up, think about a CPL.

Sponsored in most cases, but read on.

Generally speaking, to get yourself through ETPS you need a generous government paying the bills. I don't know the current price of the ETPS FTE "long course", but I doubt very much you'd get any change from half a million Euros. Plus, it's basically a military establishment, geared up for that purpose.

Basically you'd need to be a commissioned officer in your country's military with the right technical specialisms, or working as a public servant for the military in a similar role.

Now, having given you the bad news, I'll offer something more constructive.


For MSc programmes that genuinely major in flight test, in my opinion there are three good ones globally.

(1) National Test Pilots School, Mojave, CA, USA. Masters in Flight Test Engineering.
(2) Cranfield University, UK. MSc in Flight Dynamics.
(3) Madrid - I'm unsure of the details, but there's something going on there allied to the Airbus factory that looked promising when it was being set up a few years ago.

(There are some other US courses; I don't know enough to rate them, but would be suspicious unless I saw clear proof that the delivery is by proper grown-up flight testers, and it's not just a bit of bandwagon jumping.)

NTPS also run a 1-year long course, equivalent to the ETPS "long course" (most likely cheaper than ETPS, but much more expensive than any MSc), currently listing at $0.6m.


If you want to do an PhD directed to flight testing, you need an appropriate supervisor. I only really know the UK community but can think of three possible supervisors in UK universities - if you want their details PM me with your email address, but I'd rather not post them online without their permission. I can't think of any in Belgium; there will be some in the Netherlands at Delft / allied to NLR, Germany at institutions allied to DLR and probably France, but I'd struggle to tell you who they are exactly. Maybe also in Sweden at the University of Linkoping?

Have people made it into FTE work from a directly PhD? Yes - not many, but I know a few. I'm not, technically, one of them - as I was an FTE well before I did my PhD. But I'm a career oddball by all and any standards


A couple of other bits of advice
- Take out student membership of the Society of Flight Test Engineers
- Join either the AIAA or RAeS and involve yourself in their FT activities. In Belgium either is probably equally "local". Both if you have the cash and energy.


And, needless to say, best of luck.

G

ICT_SLB

Milan,
This subject comes up at least every couple of years. The previous threads are referenced in the links at the top of this forum but, alas, have been deleted.
Having worked in Commercial Flight Test for over 25 years, I would recommend the Industry Engineering route. No matter how much Engineering education or training you can get, there is no substitute for actually working in a Flight Test Department. This is because it requires a particular mind set to carry out aircraft testing safely and economically - a different mind set even to that of an Aircraft Design Organization IMHO.
To follow this route, first apply as an engineer to a company with an active flight test program - Airbus in your case, Gulfstream in the USA. You will find that most engineers in Flight Test are, in fact, a vital part of the team and, depending to a certain extent on the company philosophy, may well be carrying out some or all of the duties of a FTE including flying on test aircraft.

Genghis the Engineer

ICT is of course absolutely right to point out that this industry massively favours experience above educational qualifications.

Educational qualifications are very nice to have, and in many cases a minimum standard is essential to get your foot in the door. But, to get the most attractive jobs (often any job at all), it's your experience within the industry that matters far more.

It is certainly possible to get yourself labelled as unemployable because you've spent your whole life in educational institutions and appear to have actively avoided engagement with the real world.

G

Milan_

Thank you for your informative answers!

After your comments on the subject of my PhD and gaining some actual work experience, I'm indeed starting to rethink if getting a PhD is really the best option for me.

There is barely any aerospace research done at universities here in Belgium. So having a topic that is closely related to flight test would be difficult. Of course if I really wanted to I could go to Delft for my PhD.

I'll probably try and do a PhD very closely related to flight testing. If I can't find this kind of doctoral position I'll gain some work experience instead.

Genghis, thank you very much for all your suggestions! I think I know were to invest my time and energy to further my goal of becoming a FTE. The master at Cranfield seems to be very interesting.

I'll also try to get more flying hours and try to become part of the flight test community.

I have one more question. Is there a lot of flight testing going on in the military (more specifically the Belgian air force)?
I know the technical staff consists largely of civilians. And it's one of the biggest employers for aerospace engineers (there are very few) in Belgium.

Genghis the Engineer

I think that there is a tiny amount of military flight testing going on in Belgium - probably on collaborative programmes with other European nations mostly. I am aware of, but don't know personally, a couple of test pilots in the Belgian Air Force. I don't think that I've ever met a Belgian FTE.

I think that if you do want an FTE career, you will probably need to pursue it outside of Belgium.

G

ICT_SLB

Milan,
Just a word of caution before you blow your budget on additional flight hours. Any amount of flying you could do would not be equivalent to pilots that have already been through the various Military Flight Test Centres (many are often graduates of more than one). I have known several pilots who have worked up from FTE within test organizations but only one civilian pilot who was recruited as a test pilot.

Genghis the Engineer

Yes. Flying for someone pursuing an FTE career is all about understanding, and potentially being comfortable in, the flying environment. Whilst some FTES do migrate into the left seat, that's probably not your primary objective here.

G

Milan_

It's not my ambition to become a test pilot. I'd rather stay on the ground or perhaps in the back seat during flight testing.

I have been thinking for a while about getting my CPL (not just to further my chances of getting a career in FTE).

From what I've heard, I still have a pretty long way to go. But learning and advancing in the field of aviation is exciting. So I'm not sad about that.

ICT_SLB

Milan,
Think there might be something getting lost in translation. All Flight Test Engineers fly on the air vehicle to some extent (assuming it has crew accommodations, which might not be true for all aircraft now, I admit) but if you are not particularly interested in flying then becoming an engineer in the Flight Test organization would definitely be the route to follow. How much you could fly depends on the discipline you are following, engineers fly most in support of Avionics systems either as an active participant in the testing and/or as a flying reference - is the system operating as expected? A very large part of current Air Transport testing is in support of Flight Management Systems (FMS), where it's often not clear cut that the system is either providing the correct guidance or displays. An Avionics Engineer from either the manufacturer or equipment supplier (such as Rockwell Collins, Honeywell or Garmin) will be either in the cabin watching a repeater screen or, more often, in the jump seat in the cockpit to better see what is going on.
Paradoxically, in my experience, Flight Sciences (Aerodynamics) do the least flying but the most flight following via telemetry owing to the inherent risk of envelope expansion.

portsharbourflyer

If it is any use a humble BEng in Aero, frozen ATPL, FI experience and some heavy turboprop time, 10 years + of industry Aero Eng experience has got me to the interview stage for both a FTE job and a Flight Test Safety role. The main thing which always went against me was not being an ETPS FTE graduate. So my own view is getting sponsored through NTPS or ETPS is probably more important than gaining the post grad qualifications. Personally I think one of the flight dynamics MScs at Cranfield would be more useful than the Physics degrees you are studying.

Genghis the Engineer

I think that the point of TPS, for FTEs who are already graduate engineers, is that it gets them experienced in flight test very quickly, and thus deemed employable. It's not the only route but, if somebody will pay for it, it's the fastest route.

I've trained up other people, mostly in a university environment, in flight testing, who have gone on to do pretty well careerwise in flight testing (and still are). But it didn't necessarily happen as fast as the very intense, and relatively broad, training of a Test Pilot School.

Without doubt, significant time actually in a flight test department, starting as the junior bod assisting much more experienced people, then progressing to direct control of programmes in your own right, is the classical route and works well. It's just that getting that first job as the FT department graduate tea-boy, is incredibly difficult.

Ultimately the more real world flight test experience you have, the more employable you are as an FTE. It really is that straightforward. But, TPS is regarded as accelerated real world experience, not "school" like most degree courses are. A PhD is a halfway house - time in the lab / computer room is mostly "school", but the handful of us who did our PhDs in a real flight test environment, that's "real world" in much the same way as TPS is: close enough to count in employability.

But whilst all TPSs are inhabited by proper grown up flight testers, only a tiny number of PhD supervisors and/or their students would similarly qualify. Mucking around with an aeroplane, whilst supervised by an aerodynamicist with no FT background will probably do your career more harm than good.

G

ICT_SLB

It's a sad reflection of the current industry that Flight Test, like this forum, is a very small community. It has been said, only half in jest, that if you haven't got several mutual acquaintances (if not friends), then someone's lying about their resume.
One possible advantage for new entrants is that, as the Design departments are also fairly small, if you join the general Engineering faculty and do want to go into Flight Test then taking the initiative to, for example, help write the Certification Test Plan and all the myriad Functional Test Procedures (Rig, Ground & Flight Test) will probably get you flight testing and eventually into Flight Test.

JOE-FBS

I found this very interesting and potentially useful podcast via another forum:

210 ? A350 Flight Testing | omega tau science & engineering podcast

ahwalk01

I'll follow this with interest as a similar interest in flight test with an unconventional route to get there.

Alex.