Your routes into Flight Testing
Considerably Bemused Wannabe
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Your routes into Flight Testing
Hi all,
I’ve started this thread as would like to invite all the FTE’s and TP’s out there to tell their stories of how they made their way into flight testing. I believe us wannabe flight testers would benefit from reading your success stories.
Cheers,
eP.
FTE’s and TP’s – you have the floor…..
I’ve started this thread as would like to invite all the FTE’s and TP’s out there to tell their stories of how they made their way into flight testing. I believe us wannabe flight testers would benefit from reading your success stories.
Cheers,
eP.
FTE’s and TP’s – you have the floor…..
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No one wants to give anything away?
I'll start. I'm probably one of the rarer examples of someone who did not start out wanting to be a test pilot but ended up as one after all. I started out as an aeronautical engineer who likes to fly. I have only worked for small airplane companies in Europe and the US with small to very small engineering departments and got roped into testing what I designed, since it is always cheaper to have someone on staff do this than hiring a consultant. I'm mostly self-taught on the job, and have learned a lot from flying with other test pilots.
I'll start. I'm probably one of the rarer examples of someone who did not start out wanting to be a test pilot but ended up as one after all. I started out as an aeronautical engineer who likes to fly. I have only worked for small airplane companies in Europe and the US with small to very small engineering departments and got roped into testing what I designed, since it is always cheaper to have someone on staff do this than hiring a consultant. I'm mostly self-taught on the job, and have learned a lot from flying with other test pilots.
Considerably Bemused Wannabe
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SCaro, thanks for (hopefully) starting the ball rolling here. I must say, it seems strange to me that so few are willing to share their experiences with aspiring FTE's/TP's. It's quite the opposite over in wannabe forums - commercial pilots are only too eager to tell how they made it to where they are 
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After getting my BSc in aero eng, I wrote to Scruggs aerospace at a well known aircraft manufacturing facility near Panshanger saying Gisajob. Got one as an FTE. Still an FTE only moved to a place that used to build the worlds only 4 jet engine regional airliner and now the worlds only 4 jet engine maritime patrol aircraft.
No formal FTE training apart the usual safety training; dinghy drills, hypoxia demos etc. Managed to accumulate 1600hour FTEing.
JT
No formal FTE training apart the usual safety training; dinghy drills, hypoxia demos etc. Managed to accumulate 1600hour FTEing.
JT
It took a while, and I'm still progressing. But...
- Aero-eng apprenticeship at RAE
- Aero-eng degree, joined UAS, various jobs in summer, including a brief spell in FT at Westlands, which turned my head
- Graduated, first job not very interesting, second as a very junior FTE at a certain establishment
- Got a PPL in own time and money, built up experience
- Built up experience, attended (with variable success) ETPS FTE course
- Next job, running a ground test section at the same establishment
- Left for a job in GA certification and testing, on the back of civil licences and military FT experience, started to slide into LH seat.
- Did a PhD in flight test technique development in my own time, with a reputable university aero-department.
- Picked up bits of aero-eng consultancy, including a certain British manufacturer of light twins, on whose books I'm still an FTE.
- Gravitated to a more general role, best described as "Boffin" although still with a high FT content. Currently spending a lot of my spare (ha!) time upgrading civil licences, working on basic FT technique development, and at last count have flown about 160 sorties as FTE, 150 sorties as TP, another 50 or so sorties doing routine airworthiness renewal tests, and a total of 96 types, about 2/3 of them in FT; also currently working on evaluation of reconfigurable simulators in various forms. You'll notice that the actual FT sortie rate is pretty low (and I'm considered moderately experienced), that's normal - the ratio of writing to flying has always been poor, and the ratio of general flying to FT flying not that much better for most flight testers.
All damned hard work, very satisfying, wouldn't have changed much except possibly the money which has never been poor, but never been particularly good either. (Okay, and a couple of particular incidents, but everybody has those.)
There's a story in William Thompson's book "Aerospace Flight Test Engineer" (a brilliant read by the way), about a boy who ran away from home to the circus. His dad followed him and eventually found him in the next town, shovel in hand, shovelling and knee-deep in elephant doings. "Son", said the dad "please come home": "what", said his son, looking around him "and miss all this glamour of showbusiness". Welcome to flight test!
G
- Aero-eng apprenticeship at RAE
- Aero-eng degree, joined UAS, various jobs in summer, including a brief spell in FT at Westlands, which turned my head
- Graduated, first job not very interesting, second as a very junior FTE at a certain establishment
- Got a PPL in own time and money, built up experience
- Built up experience, attended (with variable success) ETPS FTE course
- Next job, running a ground test section at the same establishment
- Left for a job in GA certification and testing, on the back of civil licences and military FT experience, started to slide into LH seat.
- Did a PhD in flight test technique development in my own time, with a reputable university aero-department.
- Picked up bits of aero-eng consultancy, including a certain British manufacturer of light twins, on whose books I'm still an FTE.
- Gravitated to a more general role, best described as "Boffin" although still with a high FT content. Currently spending a lot of my spare (ha!) time upgrading civil licences, working on basic FT technique development, and at last count have flown about 160 sorties as FTE, 150 sorties as TP, another 50 or so sorties doing routine airworthiness renewal tests, and a total of 96 types, about 2/3 of them in FT; also currently working on evaluation of reconfigurable simulators in various forms. You'll notice that the actual FT sortie rate is pretty low (and I'm considered moderately experienced), that's normal - the ratio of writing to flying has always been poor, and the ratio of general flying to FT flying not that much better for most flight testers.
All damned hard work, very satisfying, wouldn't have changed much except possibly the money which has never been poor, but never been particularly good either. (Okay, and a couple of particular incidents, but everybody has those.)
There's a story in William Thompson's book "Aerospace Flight Test Engineer" (a brilliant read by the way), about a boy who ran away from home to the circus. His dad followed him and eventually found him in the next town, shovel in hand, shovelling and knee-deep in elephant doings. "Son", said the dad "please come home": "what", said his son, looking around him "and miss all this glamour of showbusiness". Welcome to flight test!
G
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easyPilot
The easiest way into FT/TP world is to declare yourself the 'ultimate font of all knowledge' and present yourself to everybody you meet, and on PPrune, as a fully qualified TP/FTE. There is no formal accreditation for this job and as such, spread as much propaganda about yourself as you can, and eventually somebody will take you seriously. As such, think carefully before starting/finishing any course.
Make sure you NEVER enter into any sort of banter, especially on this solemn website.
Take measures to censor anybody who says anything you don't like.
Whilst the above sounds flippant, if you do it you'll be a CTP within a year.
Just a thought.
Affirmatron, standing by to be deleted, OUT.
The easiest way into FT/TP world is to declare yourself the 'ultimate font of all knowledge' and present yourself to everybody you meet, and on PPrune, as a fully qualified TP/FTE. There is no formal accreditation for this job and as such, spread as much propaganda about yourself as you can, and eventually somebody will take you seriously. As such, think carefully before starting/finishing any course.
Make sure you NEVER enter into any sort of banter, especially on this solemn website.
Take measures to censor anybody who says anything you don't like.
Whilst the above sounds flippant, if you do it you'll be a CTP within a year.
Just a thought.
Affirmatron, standing by to be deleted, OUT.
Considerably Bemused Wannabe
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Mate,
I'm up for a laugh and joke as much as anyone - I support West Bromwich Albion and have a Brummie accent for god sake!
But to be fair, I started this thread to obtain genuine information on how TP’s and FTE’s made their way into this very niche area of aviation. So I’d appreciate it if this particular thread could be kept on track. By all means, start a separate thread in this forum and air your views, jokes and opinions. It’s up to GtE whether the thread remains or not. But please, don’t hi-jack this potentially useful thread.
Many thanks
eP.
I'm up for a laugh and joke as much as anyone - I support West Bromwich Albion and have a Brummie accent for god sake!
But to be fair, I started this thread to obtain genuine information on how TP’s and FTE’s made their way into this very niche area of aviation. So I’d appreciate it if this particular thread could be kept on track. By all means, start a separate thread in this forum and air your views, jokes and opinions. It’s up to GtE whether the thread remains or not. But please, don’t hi-jack this potentially useful thread.
Many thanks
eP.
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easyPilot
I don't see why what I said was incorrect, everything in it is TRUE. Trust me, some people have done it this way. Getting into a niche area, is largely bull$hit and bluster, and anybody that tells you otherwise is lying.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, my Nan could call herself an FTE or TP if she wanted to. I thought people might want to know that there are many people working in the industry without formal qualifications/accreditation, which might alter the way you think about spending your own money and time getting qualifications that aren't needed; perhaps the MOST useful information.
I don't see why what I said was incorrect, everything in it is TRUE. Trust me, some people have done it this way. Getting into a niche area, is largely bull$hit and bluster, and anybody that tells you otherwise is lying.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, my Nan could call herself an FTE or TP if she wanted to. I thought people might want to know that there are many people working in the industry without formal qualifications/accreditation, which might alter the way you think about spending your own money and time getting qualifications that aren't needed; perhaps the MOST useful information.
Considerably Bemused Wannabe
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Granted, I appreciate that the above route you describe may have been your particular route in to Flight Testing – if that indeed is the area you are working in. But perhaps I should be a little more specific about what information I was hoping for.
Posts by GtE, JimmyTAP and SCaro are what I was after. A brief industrial/educational background if you will. Describing their general route from leaving education, through industrial experience, to their present position in Flight Testing.
Your comment “And if people can't filter the chaff of humour from the evidence of facts, maybe they shouldn't be in Flight Test in the first place”. If that was aimed at me, I question your reasoning as it appears your initial MOT joke was aimed at a particular member on this forum, and thus the context of the joke will only be understood by the parties involved. If the comment was aimed at a particular member, be it myself or anyone else, perhaps a PM might be the best way to do it. If it was a personal attack, I fail to see why you do it publicly.
I’m not a moderator, so all I can do is kindly request that you don’t post more posts of the above ilk in this particular thread, and in turn I won’t have to write any more replies of this nature. It was my intention to start this thread and then leave it to the FTE’s and TP’s to continue it. This is the direction I’d prefer this post to go from here on in.
Cheers,
eP.
Posts by GtE, JimmyTAP and SCaro are what I was after. A brief industrial/educational background if you will. Describing their general route from leaving education, through industrial experience, to their present position in Flight Testing.
Your comment “And if people can't filter the chaff of humour from the evidence of facts, maybe they shouldn't be in Flight Test in the first place”. If that was aimed at me, I question your reasoning as it appears your initial MOT joke was aimed at a particular member on this forum, and thus the context of the joke will only be understood by the parties involved. If the comment was aimed at a particular member, be it myself or anyone else, perhaps a PM might be the best way to do it. If it was a personal attack, I fail to see why you do it publicly.
I’m not a moderator, so all I can do is kindly request that you don’t post more posts of the above ilk in this particular thread, and in turn I won’t have to write any more replies of this nature. It was my intention to start this thread and then leave it to the FTE’s and TP’s to continue it. This is the direction I’d prefer this post to go from here on in.
Cheers,
eP.
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EP,
good topic choice, but no reason why we can't give serious answers whilst having some banter. If it wasn't for banter, we would all go mad!
I did some on the job training, went to one of the 4 and now work as an FTE.
Affirmatron, I hope your car passes it's MOT soon.
FTEP
good topic choice, but no reason why we can't give serious answers whilst having some banter. If it wasn't for banter, we would all go mad!
I did some on the job training, went to one of the 4 and now work as an FTE.
Affirmatron, I hope your car passes it's MOT soon.
FTEP
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Originally Posted by Affirmatron
easyPilot
I don't see why what I said was incorrect, everything in it is TRUE. Trust me, some people have done it this way. Getting into a niche area, is largely bull$hit and bluster, and anybody that tells you otherwise is lying.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, my Nan could call herself an FTE or TP if she wanted to. I thought people might want to know that there are many people working in the industry without formal qualifications/accreditation, which might alter the way you think about spending your own money and time getting qualifications that aren't needed; perhaps the MOST useful information.
And if people can't filter the chaff of humour from the evidence of facts, maybe they shouldn't be in Flight Test in the first place.
There's a story in Enid Blighton's book "Five go mad in Flight Test Engineering" (a brilliant read by the way), about a boy who ran away from home to a Flight Test School. He was chopped but later went on to become CTP of the inner galactic quadrant. And a moderator. An over zealous one.
I don't see why what I said was incorrect, everything in it is TRUE. Trust me, some people have done it this way. Getting into a niche area, is largely bull$hit and bluster, and anybody that tells you otherwise is lying.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, my Nan could call herself an FTE or TP if she wanted to. I thought people might want to know that there are many people working in the industry without formal qualifications/accreditation, which might alter the way you think about spending your own money and time getting qualifications that aren't needed; perhaps the MOST useful information.
And if people can't filter the chaff of humour from the evidence of facts, maybe they shouldn't be in Flight Test in the first place.
There's a story in Enid Blighton's book "Five go mad in Flight Test Engineering" (a brilliant read by the way), about a boy who ran away from home to a Flight Test School. He was chopped but later went on to become CTP of the inner galactic quadrant. And a moderator. An over zealous one.
I definitely think there is room for banter here - it happens at work with colleagues, anyone who is genuinely involved in flight test experiences it (to some degree or other) - it's what helps us keep our sanity.
As to the original question, I took a similar route to Matthew Parsons.
Ray :-)
And 'big picture' wise - remember that this is not the 'Test Community', it's a website where anyone can claim to be anything - there is some good gen, but be weary of 'empty vessels........". Affirmatron is closer to the truth than some would care to face up to.
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I agree, banter is great – when it’s not personally offensive. Obviously I don’t know the story behind the MOT comment, but GtE seemed to dislike the comment.
As long as this thread stays on topic – and nobody gets offended – I’m all for banter! Just don’t slate my football team, it’s a sore subject
.
As long as this thread stays on topic – and nobody gets offended – I’m all for banter! Just don’t slate my football team, it’s a sore subject
.
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GtE,
Ok, I have to ask (been trying to figure it out all day!) - what do you mean by "(with variable success)"? Surely you either graduate or fail to? Am I woofing up the wrong tree?!
Cheers,
GC
Ok, I have to ask (been trying to figure it out all day!) - what do you mean by "(with variable success)"? Surely you either graduate or fail to? Am I woofing up the wrong tree?!
Cheers,
GC
Originally Posted by Genghis Couldn't
GtE,
Ok, I have to ask (been trying to figure it out all day!) - what do you mean by "(with variable success)"? Surely you either graduate or fail to? Am I woofing up the wrong tree?!
Cheers,
GC
Ok, I have to ask (been trying to figure it out all day!) - what do you mean by "(with variable success)"? Surely you either graduate or fail to? Am I woofing up the wrong tree?!
Cheers,
GC
Incidentally in the organisation where I am authorised as a TP, the CTP is Wyvern, an occasional on this forum and a far more experienced pilot (test or otherwise) than I ever expect to be.
Now, if you gents will excuse my bluntness, EasyPilot asked a reasonable question, and anybody diverting this thread further with personal comments about anybody but themselves, will also be banned from the forum.
Incidentally, it was me some years ago who persuaded Danny Fyne to create an FT forum on PPrune. He did so only on the condition that I became forum moderator - something that I hope I've done reasonably well whilst continuing to post my own views. I did not appoint myself moderator, or even ask to be so, I just hope I do a reasonable job. If I don't, please as I asked Affirmatron, give me your views privately please. If you feel I don't treat your private criticisms seriously enough, the site owner is Danny.
G
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Good Thread! Always wanted to be TP. Did the USAF route after BS and MS in Aerospace Engr. After nine years as a Fighter Pilot finally got enough on resume to get into USAF TPS. Hardest. most interesting school ever attended! Over next 16 years spent 3 tours at Edwards AFB (truly a meca of aviation). After selection to wing commander, jumped ship to Southwest Airlines. While airline pay and quality of life beat anything I experience in 26 years of USAF flying, no job is or was better than a squadron Test Pilot in the F-16!
Cheers,
stump
Cheers,
stump
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My way in....
1. Engineering degree
2. I applied for a job with a large multi-national defence manufacturer
3. I was given a job in the flight test department
4. I slowly learned enough to think about calling myself a flight test engineer.
Not too complicated really!
My advice for what it's worth....
Try and get a job in a large and established flight test department. These organsiations are the ones who can afford to spend money on training.
Try not to bullsh1t too much.
Integrity and the respect of your peers are important in a small specialism. If you BS, you have neither.
1. Engineering degree
2. I applied for a job with a large multi-national defence manufacturer
3. I was given a job in the flight test department
4. I slowly learned enough to think about calling myself a flight test engineer.
Not too complicated really!
My advice for what it's worth....
Try and get a job in a large and established flight test department. These organsiations are the ones who can afford to spend money on training.
Try not to bullsh1t too much.
Integrity and the respect of your peers are important in a small specialism. If you BS, you have neither.
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And mine:
Degree in physics, Masters that 'morphed' into a PhD in Aero Eng (might sound impressive, but for those in the know, a PhD is not that special!).
Job with a major defence contractor (again, not that difficult to get).
Listened, learnt, listened some more, learnt more, made mistakes, learnt from them (etc, etc).
Overall, for me, it more or less 'happened' - of course I had to put the work in, but you have to for most things :-)
Octo
Degree in physics, Masters that 'morphed' into a PhD in Aero Eng (might sound impressive, but for those in the know, a PhD is not that special!).
Job with a major defence contractor (again, not that difficult to get).
Listened, learnt, listened some more, learnt more, made mistakes, learnt from them (etc, etc).
Overall, for me, it more or less 'happened' - of course I had to put the work in, but you have to for most things :-)
Octo
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Technically, mine isn't a "route to being an FTE/TP" - since I'm neither - but I have spent too many hours "flight testing" to not want to comment.
Basically, if what you want is to be "involved" in flight testing it doesn't necessarily mean you're flying; if getting airborne isn't the goal, then there are FAR more people involved in a test team firmly anchored to the ground, which means that for someone looking to get involved, it might be a bit easier to start off as an engineer (design/development type) and then develop (regress!
) into an FTE type role. Many companies second staff from the 'pure' engineering departments to flight test teams, and it would be possible to drift into a more permanent role there if you played your crads right. It's probably not a plausible role to TP - since you need to make two career changes, which is going to eat up time - but its very plausible for FTE, we've had guys do it. If you went that route I'd be tempted to advise going for a systems engineering role at first, because structural guys have very few reasons to do flight testing, their stuff is invariable rig tested, and because the basic FTE training will probably be weaker on systems than on aero, so if the company is looking to "fill a spot" its more likely to be for someone to specialise in the systems stuff. But that's just an opinion ...
Any, FWIW, my career path was:
* Maths degree followed by 1 year MSc
* 9 years at 'Scruggs Aerospace' as an aerodynamicist - where we didn't get involved much directly in testing, since the Flight Test group were very self-sufficient (or 'insular', depending on your POV!)
* 9 years and counting in Canada, again as an aerodynamicist (which they call 'flight scientist' here of course) but this time far more involved in flight testing, spending 3 of those 9 years in close proximity to ICT_SLB and a few others. I never actually went airborne, but several of my colleagues did (when, say, testing for ice and suchlike) and I've been on production test flights for troubleshooting since.
If I were to pick a single trait that will bring you success...be flexible. The chances of the 'ideal' opening being available at any given time is small; for my own case, I've never worked in the discipline for which my MSc was ostensible preparation; my first company reassigned me to a different job to the one they had planned for me before I showed up. My company change was actually to a subtly different discipline; I got involved in the flight test teams by accident, or circumstance, twice. If I'd ever said "no, my career plan says I want to do X" I'd never have got where I am - though thats not to say having a plan is bad.
Basically, if what you want is to be "involved" in flight testing it doesn't necessarily mean you're flying; if getting airborne isn't the goal, then there are FAR more people involved in a test team firmly anchored to the ground, which means that for someone looking to get involved, it might be a bit easier to start off as an engineer (design/development type) and then develop (regress!
) into an FTE type role. Many companies second staff from the 'pure' engineering departments to flight test teams, and it would be possible to drift into a more permanent role there if you played your crads right. It's probably not a plausible role to TP - since you need to make two career changes, which is going to eat up time - but its very plausible for FTE, we've had guys do it. If you went that route I'd be tempted to advise going for a systems engineering role at first, because structural guys have very few reasons to do flight testing, their stuff is invariable rig tested, and because the basic FTE training will probably be weaker on systems than on aero, so if the company is looking to "fill a spot" its more likely to be for someone to specialise in the systems stuff. But that's just an opinion ...Any, FWIW, my career path was:
* Maths degree followed by 1 year MSc
* 9 years at 'Scruggs Aerospace' as an aerodynamicist - where we didn't get involved much directly in testing, since the Flight Test group were very self-sufficient (or 'insular', depending on your POV!)
* 9 years and counting in Canada, again as an aerodynamicist (which they call 'flight scientist' here of course) but this time far more involved in flight testing, spending 3 of those 9 years in close proximity to ICT_SLB and a few others. I never actually went airborne, but several of my colleagues did (when, say, testing for ice and suchlike) and I've been on production test flights for troubleshooting since.
If I were to pick a single trait that will bring you success...be flexible. The chances of the 'ideal' opening being available at any given time is small; for my own case, I've never worked in the discipline for which my MSc was ostensible preparation; my first company reassigned me to a different job to the one they had planned for me before I showed up. My company change was actually to a subtly different discipline; I got involved in the flight test teams by accident, or circumstance, twice. If I'd ever said "no, my career plan says I want to do X" I'd never have got where I am - though thats not to say having a plan is bad.
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Like M(F)S, I'm also "in Flight Test" but not a TP or FTE. I have, however, been known to contribute to the overall Weight & Balance of an Experimental aircraft (as Self-Loading Ballast). This includes seeing parts of the Mid-West from some very extreme angles (never go along with an ex-F18 driver & an ex-Tornado jockey when they're trying to outdo each other in clearing a civil HUD for "Unusual Attitudes").
I started out doing a Student Apprenticeship in the Civilian Division of Scrugg's and was in the Avionics/Electrical Design office until it became VERY apparent that the UK Civil market was on its last legs. This led to 5 years at the Lazy B as a shopper where I found I was one of the few not to have worked for Scrugg's Military Division. Keeping this side of the pond, I joined Canabeer in their Avionics group (then smaller than most mod. shops). After they were given to Bombardair, I was in the RJ design group that, like all the older programmes, morphed over to the Flight Test group ("We're doing the Flight Test in Wichita, do you want to join us?"). Been doing FT in the Air Capital just about ever since - with timeouts for Learjet report writing, RJ Autopilot & HGS Certifications.
As I've said before, modern FT is a team sport with contributions from people in the air and on the ground - even more so with the growing importance of simulation & system integration before, during and after flight test.
I started out doing a Student Apprenticeship in the Civilian Division of Scrugg's and was in the Avionics/Electrical Design office until it became VERY apparent that the UK Civil market was on its last legs. This led to 5 years at the Lazy B as a shopper where I found I was one of the few not to have worked for Scrugg's Military Division. Keeping this side of the pond, I joined Canabeer in their Avionics group (then smaller than most mod. shops). After they were given to Bombardair, I was in the RJ design group that, like all the older programmes, morphed over to the Flight Test group ("We're doing the Flight Test in Wichita, do you want to join us?"). Been doing FT in the Air Capital just about ever since - with timeouts for Learjet report writing, RJ Autopilot & HGS Certifications.
As I've said before, modern FT is a team sport with contributions from people in the air and on the ground - even more so with the growing importance of simulation & system integration before, during and after flight test.