Jar-Ops trick
 

Two destination alternate aerodrome:
2 dest alt aerodrome are required when the appropriate wx reports or forecast for the destination, or any combination thereof, indicate that during a period commencing 1hr before and ending 1hr after the est time of arrival, the wx conditions will be below the applicable planning minima OR no meteo info is available

Planning minima for Destination Aerodrome:
An aerodrome shall not be selected as a destination aerodrome unless the appropriate wx reports or forecast, or any combination thereof, indicate that, during a period commencing 1hr before and ending 1hr after the est time of arrival at the aerodrome, the wx conditions will be at or above the applicable planning minima as follows bla bla bla...

Now: can we indicate a destination apt when below minima or when no wx report is available just indicating two alternates, or I shall never select a dest aerodrome when wx is below minima or not available?

(I will post the question to our flying collegues as well, just to have the two side of the desk)

Ciao
Paolo

What is a forecast other than quess work? It does depend where you are heading for, but you can always telephone the tower at the destination for their actual wx, if it is not being broadcast.
As you can include the RVR acceptable to type on your flt plan, that way it allows BRU to know just what flights can be accepted at destination.
By monitoring the actual wx prior to the flight you may be able to identify a trend, and know what the best course of action is.
Don't see the problem! http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/guus/drunk.gif

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Lala,
you never planned a long haul to...let's say Maceio (Brazil) then...
The question is:

a) you have no wx or wx below minima, select the destination you want but must nominate two dest alternates.

b) you cannot select a destination when no wx available or wx below planning applicable minima.

What rule rules? Both are valid.
Ciao
Paolo

Vipero - oh but I have.
Now how long does it take to get across the pond? You have to consult the long range wx forecast. That being just it a forecast. By the time you arrive it is possible the wx bears no relation to the forecast, so what use is using that wx??
If you went entirely by the rules, as you put it, then in all likelyhood the flight would never depart! :)

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You got the point lala.
Take Maceio (MCZ/SBMO) and you have no wx at all...and if you call the tower? You might have a metar, that doesn't cover a long time planning (you must have wx valid for a period starting 1hr before ending 1hr after, remember?).
Now, the two rules cannot stay together:
one say you can always choose a destination, providing you use two dest alternates.
The other say you shall never select an apt as dest when wx is below minima or no wx available (then you must select another airport with ft available). It means, in poor words: do not plan a LGW/MCZ, even if your flight get there, but plan a LGW/SSA, then the pilots will have the fuel not for a destination without wx, but for a destination with wx...
Who wrote the Jar-Ops? I have the answer, but will keep it for me, don't want to start another war.

Ciao
Paolo

Good question vipero - and well put.

A Captains view here:

The rules are designed to prevent an aircraft running out of fuel because destination and alternate weather are out of limits. It nearly happened to me in Cyprus some years ago when two airports fogged out at the same time and it wasn't forecast.

Our (Jar)Ops manual says:

'Met reports and/or forecasts must indicate that the the weather will be at or above the applicable planning minima' for the specified time period.

'If planning minima is not fulfilled, two destination alternates must be selected.'

On that basis it would be legal to dispatch if the criteria are met. I had this recently when the the destination Met Office was shut. We carried round trip fuel which satisfied the criteria. Also we filed (at least that is what I was told) for the first alternate where the weather was OK and then diverted. Paperwork exercise really.

Now . . . To the culture and legality of the decision making process.

The legality for the flight rests fair and square with the Captain. Some of the rules deliberately have grey areas and that is where the Captain will have to make a safe judgement and decision which cannot be overuled. I have not yet read an AAIB report where Ops personnel were cited.

If Ops say you can go and the Captain says no then the matter is final. You can replace the Captain but the next geezer might say no too.

Correct me if I am wrong but in the USA Flight Dispatchers hold a license and may have some authority. That is not the case in the UK and therfore ops must be considered as an advisory service.

An airline cannot (legally) undermine the authority of a Captain to make a safe decision.

I am trying to get in. 1st time failed I hope I am successful this time.
Very interesting issues being discussed.

It seems to me that Jar-Ops just make the whole stuff a little more complicated...
FAA rules require to select a different destination aerodrome whenever below minima or no wx available...
Jar-Ops maintained this rule, but in addition they put one more (two dest altn). Unfortunately, they forget to write "when wx do not fulfill planning minima select two dest alternates"...
Just reading the official text, applying what is written there, there are no chances to select a dest when below planning minima. Period. All other company's interpretations are what they are: interpretations (and are you really sure that a judge will apply'em as you interpreteted them?)

Ciao
Paolo

[This message has been edited by vipero (edited 14 March 2001).]