BA cancels all flights at LHR until 1700 but others operating
Thread Starter
BA cancels all flights at LHR until 1700 but others operating
I see that BA have cancelled all their flights at LHR until 1700 today (Sat 18th Dec) but that other operators, which includes other LHR resident operators VS & BD, were operating around 90% of their schedule this morning. (I understand that the runways are now closed for de-icing so no longer the case.) Anyone with any inside information on why BA feels it necessary to cancel all their programme but not other airlines/ I would have thought that it would put them at a competitive disadvantage (although if the blizzard holds up may be smart I'm not trying to be judgemental).
Anyone with any inside information on why BA feels it necessary to cancel all their programme
I'm not saying I agree with the tactic, and hats off to VS and BD for having a go, but following the runway closures this PM it might have been a smart move for BA though not great for their customers.
Last edited by wiggy; 18th Dec 2010 at 17:24.
Thread Starter
I should say that I wasn't aware that things would get as bad as they did when I wrote my first post!
Edited at 08:00 on Sunday 19th - I certainly wasn't anticipating that the airport will still be closed on sunday morning when I wrote my original post. Or that a Virgin would get stuck in the snow!
Edited at 08:00 on Sunday 19th - I certainly wasn't anticipating that the airport will still be closed on sunday morning when I wrote my original post. Or that a Virgin would get stuck in the snow!
Last edited by Peter47; 19th Dec 2010 at 07:06.
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Yes with hindsight this looks like an intelligent call, given that all four London airports were closed by 14.00 local and diverts were mostly going to continental Europe.
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I'd heard that BA ran out of deicing fluid and were very stretched in terms of deicing rigs as well. Can't confirm either, but with an operation the size of theirs, they may have been caught short.....
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I suspect that a lot of LHR's woes have to do with a lack of investment in snow clearing equipment - 'the world's warming up, right?' - and other necessary infrastructure. Apparently LGW have more ploughs than LHR. BAA seem more concerned with having a shopping mall with aircraft parked outside. Until their mindset changes, or the government shows some balls to kick some 
, BAA will tough it out. I reckon they couldn't give a toss about the UK's reputation; retail rules.
I've been stuck at airports in the US and Europe because of snow but the delays were measured in hours rather than days and the affected airports seemed to have the equipment - and the will - to get things moving. The UK makes merit out of muddling through and 'succeeding when our backs are to the wall'. There is no merit in this whatsoever; invariably the muddle is just that and despite 'lessons-learned' (what a hackneyed expression), nobody appears to have learned any lessons.
, BAA will tough it out. I reckon they couldn't give a toss about the UK's reputation; retail rules.I've been stuck at airports in the US and Europe because of snow but the delays were measured in hours rather than days and the affected airports seemed to have the equipment - and the will - to get things moving. The UK makes merit out of muddling through and 'succeeding when our backs are to the wall'. There is no merit in this whatsoever; invariably the muddle is just that and despite 'lessons-learned' (what a hackneyed expression), nobody appears to have learned any lessons.
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There is no lessons-learned approach in BAA management. After more then 20 years of flying in and out BAA airports on daily basis I can say that every coming year operations was worst then previous.
They can not and they will not learn until they put first efficiency of operations above profit.
Four trucks cleared Runway yesterday. BAA money saved.
Hundreds flights cancelled, insurance companies will pay for. BAA money saved.
Passangers stranded? Who? What? Where?
They can not and they will not learn until they put first efficiency of operations above profit.
Four trucks cleared Runway yesterday. BAA money saved.
Hundreds flights cancelled, insurance companies will pay for. BAA money saved.
Passangers stranded? Who? What? Where?
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'Twas ever thus!
Or perhaps not quite 'ever thus!' From 'Horizon' - The Magazine of BOAC Flight Operations January/February 1968:
SICK SICK SNOW
In the icy winter of 1963 it used to be said from time to time that all snow-clearance on London Airport had to stop because someone had busted the shovel, but since those primitive days scores of thousands of quid have been spent on snow-clearing equipment and things have changed completely. Er - hang on a minute, we'll try that over again:- since those primitive days scores of thousands of quid have been spent on snow-clearing equipment, and it hasn't made the smallest perceptible difference.
On the night of 8th-9th January a few hours' snow fell. It had been plainly forecast, and cars coming this way from the west bore clear evidence of its impending arrival. Nevertheless, on Tuesday morning London Airport was O-U-T out. However, came the dawn, and the British Airports Authority got cracking when they saw the white blanket, and got runway 10L/28R clear. This was a pity because it's the shorter of the two main runways, so with takeoffs limited by noise abatement procedures four aircraft had to make additional technical calls for fuel. This wasn't cheap.
Taxiway clearance was very slow and by 11:00 hrs. on the 9th January BOAC had only one clear parking spot in the Central Area. But we'd heeded the the snow warning, and with commendable foresight had put five aeroplanes to bed in the hangars, so we were able to bring the passengers over and launch the services from there the next morning.
We had six diversions to Prestwick and two to Manchester, and one VC10 was held on the ground at Rome until the crew ran out of time. Very expensive!
The taxiways didn't get clear for towing until a warm breeze came in during the small hours of Sunday, 14th January and melted all the snow, and during all that time we had to have crews standing by twenty-four hours a day for taxying the aircraft from the hangars to the apron.
At 11:00 on Wednesday, 10th January 10R/28L was at last declared serviceable for takeoffs only, and it was cleared for landings in the afternoon of 12th (about 80 hours after the snow fell), but with a warning of 7mm ice ridges and only medium braking.
The BAA bloke was interviewed on TV on Wednesday night and asked why on earth they didn't get stuck into the snow clearance right away? He explained blandly that they'd had a forecast of warm rain coming through so they decided to let the rain do the job for them.
And what was the magnitude of the mighty blizzard that wrought all this havoc? Ah, we thought you'd ask that so we checked, and the answer is that there fell on London Airport on the 8th/9th January exactly 9 cms of snow; which being freely translated comes out at three and three quarter inches!
Melancholy footnote: on Friday night another couple of inches fell, and the airport went out again - twice - on the Saturday.
Editor.
As you can see, the said 'Editor' - the late SEO Oscar Ingham of the VC10 fleet had a pithy way with words!
I can also add that, working in BOAC flight ops over those days, I stood in the VC10 roster office and watched from above as the bemused but delighted passengers were brought into the cavernous surroundings of the TBA South Pen to board the aircraft. They were then towed outside for engine start. Of course it would be impossible to do this nowadays.
SICK SICK SNOW
In the icy winter of 1963 it used to be said from time to time that all snow-clearance on London Airport had to stop because someone had busted the shovel, but since those primitive days scores of thousands of quid have been spent on snow-clearing equipment and things have changed completely. Er - hang on a minute, we'll try that over again:- since those primitive days scores of thousands of quid have been spent on snow-clearing equipment, and it hasn't made the smallest perceptible difference.
On the night of 8th-9th January a few hours' snow fell. It had been plainly forecast, and cars coming this way from the west bore clear evidence of its impending arrival. Nevertheless, on Tuesday morning London Airport was O-U-T out. However, came the dawn, and the British Airports Authority got cracking when they saw the white blanket, and got runway 10L/28R clear. This was a pity because it's the shorter of the two main runways, so with takeoffs limited by noise abatement procedures four aircraft had to make additional technical calls for fuel. This wasn't cheap.
Taxiway clearance was very slow and by 11:00 hrs. on the 9th January BOAC had only one clear parking spot in the Central Area. But we'd heeded the the snow warning, and with commendable foresight had put five aeroplanes to bed in the hangars, so we were able to bring the passengers over and launch the services from there the next morning.
We had six diversions to Prestwick and two to Manchester, and one VC10 was held on the ground at Rome until the crew ran out of time. Very expensive!
The taxiways didn't get clear for towing until a warm breeze came in during the small hours of Sunday, 14th January and melted all the snow, and during all that time we had to have crews standing by twenty-four hours a day for taxying the aircraft from the hangars to the apron.
At 11:00 on Wednesday, 10th January 10R/28L was at last declared serviceable for takeoffs only, and it was cleared for landings in the afternoon of 12th (about 80 hours after the snow fell), but with a warning of 7mm ice ridges and only medium braking.
The BAA bloke was interviewed on TV on Wednesday night and asked why on earth they didn't get stuck into the snow clearance right away? He explained blandly that they'd had a forecast of warm rain coming through so they decided to let the rain do the job for them.
And what was the magnitude of the mighty blizzard that wrought all this havoc? Ah, we thought you'd ask that so we checked, and the answer is that there fell on London Airport on the 8th/9th January exactly 9 cms of snow; which being freely translated comes out at three and three quarter inches!
Melancholy footnote: on Friday night another couple of inches fell, and the airport went out again - twice - on the Saturday.
Editor.
As you can see, the said 'Editor' - the late SEO Oscar Ingham of the VC10 fleet had a pithy way with words!
I can also add that, working in BOAC flight ops over those days, I stood in the VC10 roster office and watched from above as the bemused but delighted passengers were brought into the cavernous surroundings of the TBA South Pen to board the aircraft. They were then towed outside for engine start. Of course it would be impossible to do this nowadays.
Last edited by Georgeablelovehowindia; 19th Dec 2010 at 12:54.
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Looking acros the pond we just cant belive that we are having to scrub flights to the UK given the paltry amount of snow thats on the ground. Do tell, what hapened to the Sicard snow equipment that BAA purchased with much fanfare a few years back? It looks like BAA are banking on the "WTS" snow removal system again this year {Wait till Spring system that is}
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And not just BAA in the dark ages
A points failure at Hounslow central on the Picadilly line yesterday gave the advice that you would be better getting off at Hounslow east to catch the 111 bus to Heathrow. Unfortunately the said bus was not a special put on to transport the displaced passengers but a normal scheduled bus that quickly got totally overwhelmed by numbers and basically left everyone to fend for themselves in snowy conditions. I suppose the only saving grace was that because all the flights were cancelled no-one missed their flights. No thanks to tfl though. Makes you proud to be British doesn't it..
A points failure at Hounslow central on the Picadilly line yesterday gave the advice that you would be better getting off at Hounslow east to catch the 111 bus to Heathrow. Unfortunately the said bus was not a special put on to transport the displaced passengers but a normal scheduled bus that quickly got totally overwhelmed by numbers and basically left everyone to fend for themselves in snowy conditions. I suppose the only saving grace was that because all the flights were cancelled no-one missed their flights. No thanks to tfl though. Makes you proud to be British doesn't it..
Last edited by rightbank; 20th Dec 2010 at 06:51.
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Just got back from 2 days holidaying at gate B32, Geneva. Pretty pied off on friday to be told LHR closed and thus our BA flt cancelled, only to watch BMI/Swiss successfully depart from B33 (and arrive) at LHR.
ed off on friday to be told LHR closed and thus our BA flt cancelled, only to watch BMI/Swiss successfully depart from B33 (and arrive) at LHR.
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Amazing !!
I will suggest BAA to arrange a trip to Sweden or Norway so they can learn how to do it !! They can sweep a runway with the same amount of snow in few hours with 5 - 10 of the modern trucks running simultanously down the runway 24/7 and then keep it clean both by sweeping and with the use of chemicals (Urea).
It is amazing why they don't invest in the right equipment, the loss from this winter could buy more trucks than needed, but it seems that it has worked out well for decades with those agriculture tractors so why should they change anything, even the smallest polish airport in the middle of the woods have better and more efficient equipment than the BAA (At least in Stansted.)
It is amazing why they don't invest in the right equipment, the loss from this winter could buy more trucks than needed, but it seems that it has worked out well for decades with those agriculture tractors so why should they change anything, even the smallest polish airport in the middle of the woods have better and more efficient equipment than the BAA (At least in Stansted.)
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Huge praise should be heaped onto Manchester Airport for not only remaining open but for also handling all of those extra flights. Praise for all Ground Ops people. Well done 
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De-icing Holdover times
Given the location of T5 are some of the problems with the BA program due to the holdover times with the De-icing? It’s ok if you are on the 09's but the 27's must be a problem in precipitation
Well can only talk for Stansted and a few years ago when I used to be on the snow team. Equipment was up to the task (Although some did let us down but seeing as it sits there all year not being used then used constantly I don't think it done badly) and the people were well briefed.
I do remember getting the runway cleared early one morning then moving onto the taxiways with an MD-11 following us. Tractors are used for the stands and some of the cul-de-sacs, the big stuff is used for runways and taxiways.
Some good times had on the team, trust me, they are working hard to clear everything and it is long and tedious.
Guys, keep up the good work and let the plough bashers moans wash off you.
If anyone would like more info on this PM me!
OB
I do remember getting the runway cleared early one morning then moving onto the taxiways with an MD-11 following us. Tractors are used for the stands and some of the cul-de-sacs, the big stuff is used for runways and taxiways.
Some good times had on the team, trust me, they are working hard to clear everything and it is long and tedious.
Guys, keep up the good work and let the plough bashers moans wash off you.
If anyone would like more info on this PM me!
OB
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Press Release - Removed from BAA Website
All Points North | Heathrow’s army of snow ploughs stretch their wings as snow bites
This was a press release on the Heathrow Airport website, now removed.
Original WAS located here BAA Heathrow: Content unavailable
Can be see on Google Cache here BAA Heathrow: Heathrow's army of snow ploughs stretch their wings as snow bites
Heathrow’s army of snow ploughs stretch their wings as snow bites
This was a press release on the Heathrow Airport website, now removed.
Original WAS located here BAA Heathrow: Content unavailable
Can be see on Google Cache here BAA Heathrow: Heathrow's army of snow ploughs stretch their wings as snow bites
Heathrow’s army of snow ploughs stretch their wings as snow bites
29 November 2010
The cold snap may have only just bitten but Heathrow’s snow team has been working for months to ensure the UK’s hub airport will once again be prepared for the onset of winter.
With an extra half a million pounds invested in equipment this year, Heathrow’s airside department run constant checks of runway and taxiway areas, applying de-icing and of course clearing any snow and debris away.
Heathrow’s specialist teams – which includes 50 highly trained staff and more than 60 hi-tech vehicles – have been preparing since the end of last winter to do everything they can to minimise delays in the face of wintry conditions.
The airport employs a fleet of snow ploughs and de-icing vehicles to clear and prepare runways and taxiways at the airport’s specialist snow base which sits in between the two runways. Heathrow’s airside operations teams have spent the summer refreshing their training with plans being discussed with airlines, baggage handlers and air traffic control to ensure a coordinated response.
While London may have run out of grit last winter, Heathrow is determined that it doesn’t run out of the highly concentrated de-icing fluid it uses on the runways (grit is not used as this could get into engines). That’s why the airport now has an innovative computer system that remotely measures how much de-icer is left – to ensure restocking can take place when required. To minimise the impact on the surrounding greenery, the chemical bi-product – glycol – is also recovered by a host of new recovery vehicles, ensuring more waste de- icing liquid can be removed effectively from the airport.
To ensure it has the most up-to-date weather predictions, Heathrow uses the Met Office’s OpenRunway system which offers 24 hour access to measurements including air and runway temperatures, wind and visibility, all vital in determining the right time to apply anti or de-icer.
Key Heathrow snow facts:
Heathrow was the only major airport in the UK to not close last winter
There are over 60 vehicles and 50 staff keeping the runways clear
An extra £500,000 has been invested this year in snow-fighting technology
Heathrow has storage for 500,000 litres of de-icing fluid
Each de-icing vehicle can hold a massive 60,000 litres and it takes around 25 mins to de-ice each runway
Liquid de-icer used on the runway and taxiways is effective for longer and ensures that grit doesn’t cause damage to engines.
Colin Wood, Director of Airside, said: “As the world’s busiest international airport it’s absolutely vital we are well prepared and our team do an excellent job often in quite severe conditions. While we stayed open last winter, we won’t rest on our laurels and promise that we’ll be ready, waiting and doing everything we can to make every journey better for our passengers.”
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Opsbeatch
Not sure what department you work in....not out side i expect...but on the ramp there is a severe shortage of shovels......There is no gargen shed to go to and its not one of the items that a ground handling company has lined up with the tugs,steps and buggys ect......if the people that run the airports cant cope, we stand no chance........any way company rules......Only do jobs you are trained to do!!!