New UK Flight Operations Officer / Flight Dispatcher Training Course
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Bristol, England
Age: 65
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Hi,
The course is still under development, the more pressing requirement of updating the ATPL material to match EASA's requirements got in the way. It is going to be a distance learning course to cover the theory requirements of the syllabus (met theory, Air law etc.) followed by a one or two week course at SITA to cover the more practical application of the theory. I would estimate it will be ready for launch in about 9 months.
The course is still under development, the more pressing requirement of updating the ATPL material to match EASA's requirements got in the way. It is going to be a distance learning course to cover the theory requirements of the syllabus (met theory, Air law etc.) followed by a one or two week course at SITA to cover the more practical application of the theory. I would estimate it will be ready for launch in about 9 months.
Join Date: May 1999
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Not this time - mea culpa, SITA keep pushing me! I am on the case, there's definitely a market for a JAR-OPS/EU-OPS orientated course that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. I was told that, at one stage, EasyJet were sending their Operations staff to the US to complete an FAA flight dispatchers ticket. I don't know if they still are, but that doesn't make sense for an EU operator. The rules are different and the operating philosophy is different.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: God's Country - Scotland
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Hi nosig,
All this goes back into last century when we all thought that it would come to fruition sometime.
I suppose the slow turning of the wheels eventually gets there. It's long overdue but for some of us it's maybe too late.
I see your spelling hasn't improved over the years.
You back in UK now?
Give me a bell sometime.
DL
All this goes back into last century when we all thought that it would come to fruition sometime.
I suppose the slow turning of the wheels eventually gets there. It's long overdue but for some of us it's maybe too late.
I see your spelling hasn't improved over the years.
You back in UK now?
Give me a bell sometime.
DL
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Formal Training for Ground Operations Personnel
Alex,
Its been sometime since we last met in Bedfordshire and I am extremely pleased to hear that the 7192 D3 course is still alive.
I have been banging on about the need to get a formal European certificate or even license for Ground Ops people for as long as I can remember. I hold a current FAA (Part 65) Dispatcher license which is a good thing to have but has no relevance to EU-OPS 1. The ICAO syllabus doc 7192 D3 , which is basically the ATPL course is very relevant and all European G-Ops people should undertake this course before they are allowed to act in any supervisory capacity in a flight/network control or flight dispatch office of any UK airline holding an AOC.
The problem with this is the CAA and all the super prima donnas of the SRG who have absolutely no understanding of the contribution to air safety and operational control and supervision that should be provided by ground operations personnel that hold formal recognised qualifications that should be compliant with EU legislation and administered by the authority. It would appear that the myopic doyens of the SRG think that a ground ops department is there to order a taxi or book a room in a hotel for a pilot. The technical stuff is for the drivers only? How unrealistic is this and is a perfect illustration of the puffed up pilot in the role of regulation.
The FAA could teach them a lesson on how it should be done and they would be well advised to re think the role of ground operations in AOC operations perhaps this incident would sharpen their resolve Air Accidents Investigation: Airbus A330-243, G-OJMC in which ground operations personnel were directly involved.
Many airlines in the UK and Europe recognise that adequately trained and technically competent staff working in ground operations are a vital ingredient to air safety and are the orchestrator's of business continuity. The CAA needs to get a grip and recognise this too.
Alex can you arrange for an alternative to SITA? SITA always charge too much and usually cock things up as well. I do not believe that allowing them to have a monopoly would serve your interests or the interests of the industry well.
Debate:
Ground Operations - what's all that about and what does it mean? There's no definition in EU-OPS, perhaps we should get it banned?
Its been sometime since we last met in Bedfordshire and I am extremely pleased to hear that the 7192 D3 course is still alive.
I have been banging on about the need to get a formal European certificate or even license for Ground Ops people for as long as I can remember. I hold a current FAA (Part 65) Dispatcher license which is a good thing to have but has no relevance to EU-OPS 1. The ICAO syllabus doc 7192 D3 , which is basically the ATPL course is very relevant and all European G-Ops people should undertake this course before they are allowed to act in any supervisory capacity in a flight/network control or flight dispatch office of any UK airline holding an AOC.
The problem with this is the CAA and all the super prima donnas of the SRG who have absolutely no understanding of the contribution to air safety and operational control and supervision that should be provided by ground operations personnel that hold formal recognised qualifications that should be compliant with EU legislation and administered by the authority. It would appear that the myopic doyens of the SRG think that a ground ops department is there to order a taxi or book a room in a hotel for a pilot. The technical stuff is for the drivers only? How unrealistic is this and is a perfect illustration of the puffed up pilot in the role of regulation.
The FAA could teach them a lesson on how it should be done and they would be well advised to re think the role of ground operations in AOC operations perhaps this incident would sharpen their resolve Air Accidents Investigation: Airbus A330-243, G-OJMC in which ground operations personnel were directly involved.
Many airlines in the UK and Europe recognise that adequately trained and technically competent staff working in ground operations are a vital ingredient to air safety and are the orchestrator's of business continuity. The CAA needs to get a grip and recognise this too.
Alex can you arrange for an alternative to SITA? SITA always charge too much and usually cock things up as well. I do not believe that allowing them to have a monopoly would serve your interests or the interests of the industry well.
Debate:
Ground Operations - what's all that about and what does it mean? There's no definition in EU-OPS, perhaps we should get it banned?
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Epsilon minus,
Since SITA initiated this joint venture with Bristol Ground School your comments are ill-informed and inappropriate. Also as no charges have yet been published you are not in a position to make any comment on them. SITA has been asked for a long time by many of its customer airlines as well as individuals to host a dispatcher training course. It is not looking for or claiming a monopoly in this field.
Since SITA initiated this joint venture with Bristol Ground School your comments are ill-informed and inappropriate. Also as no charges have yet been published you are not in a position to make any comment on them. SITA has been asked for a long time by many of its customer airlines as well as individuals to host a dispatcher training course. It is not looking for or claiming a monopoly in this field.
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Right - couple of points here.
Sorry that you are so easily bruised but SITA have a long history of being very expensive. As for being ill informed I think this comment inappropriate.
My experience of business relationships with SITA has not been one that would incline me towards future business dealings, your comments have served to reinforce my belief. This does not imply that SITA customer support has been poor, on the contrary.
Apart from Bristol GS (and they are no longer providers) I know of no other training organisation offering a distance learning course for the ICAO 7192 D3 syllabus, therefore if SITA goes ahead you will enjoy a monopoly. I believe this to be unhealthy and as a potential customer I would prefer that there be a competitor or competitors to SITA.
This is not intended to cause you any offence but is merely an observation of my past experiences. I hope that, in the future, you can allay my reticence and I wish you all well.
Regards.
EM
Sorry that you are so easily bruised but SITA have a long history of being very expensive. As for being ill informed I think this comment inappropriate.
My experience of business relationships with SITA has not been one that would incline me towards future business dealings, your comments have served to reinforce my belief. This does not imply that SITA customer support has been poor, on the contrary.
Apart from Bristol GS (and they are no longer providers) I know of no other training organisation offering a distance learning course for the ICAO 7192 D3 syllabus, therefore if SITA goes ahead you will enjoy a monopoly. I believe this to be unhealthy and as a potential customer I would prefer that there be a competitor or competitors to SITA.
This is not intended to cause you any offence but is merely an observation of my past experiences. I hope that, in the future, you can allay my reticence and I wish you all well.
Regards.
EM
Join Date: May 1999
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Grief chaps! A bit of history here... we did try to set up an FD course with Silverjet. As we looked at how we could do it I became aware that, although we could provide the background theory, we at BGS have no direct experience of the Operations Officer's job. The solution with Silverjet was for them to provide on the job training and to help us develop -or more likely cut down - the basic ATPL course, which exceeds the Doc 7192 requirements, to match their Operations department's needs.
The course we produced could not be 'approved' because there is no requirement to do so in JAR OPS or EU OPS. I tried to get the course 'recognised' instead as being compliant with Doc 7192. The CAA were no help, Flight Crew Licensing refused because FDs aren't flight crew (like to help you old chap but not our bailiwick, try Flight Ops) and, when I asked the Flight Ops department to recognise the course, their refusal was blunt to the point of rudeness, in fact it was rude.
Unfortunately this first version of the course didn't really get started before Silverjet's unfortunate demise but they do deserve credit for trying to set up a decent system.
I had quite a bit of e-mail encouragement at this time from some senior and experienced Flight Ops staff who thought the idea should be kept alive. I'd like to thank them for that. A year or so later SITA approached me with a similar idea, but to produce a generic course this time, not company specific. In this iteration the ATPL course is cut down from the start and modified to match the Doc 7192 requirements. SITA convinced me that they could run the classroom phase quite successfully - this depends more on the competence and drive of the instructors than anything else - and we have talked about a pricing structure which doesn't see unreasonable to me.
I'm sure that SITA will monitor what we deliver as we will watch what they do because its in both our best interests to deliver a good course.
Why don't you give us a chance to do it right? If we mess up, then attack us.
Edited to add: I haven't spoken to SITA about this but I don't think there is any monopoly in our agreement. If an airline, for instance, wanted to run their own version of the course I can't see any reason why we shouldn't provide the Doc 7192 theory course and they provide the on-the-job training to their own company specific procedures, or maybe SITA could run a cut down version of their classroom phase with the airline bolting company specific procedures on the end?
The course we produced could not be 'approved' because there is no requirement to do so in JAR OPS or EU OPS. I tried to get the course 'recognised' instead as being compliant with Doc 7192. The CAA were no help, Flight Crew Licensing refused because FDs aren't flight crew (like to help you old chap but not our bailiwick, try Flight Ops) and, when I asked the Flight Ops department to recognise the course, their refusal was blunt to the point of rudeness, in fact it was rude.
Unfortunately this first version of the course didn't really get started before Silverjet's unfortunate demise but they do deserve credit for trying to set up a decent system.
I had quite a bit of e-mail encouragement at this time from some senior and experienced Flight Ops staff who thought the idea should be kept alive. I'd like to thank them for that. A year or so later SITA approached me with a similar idea, but to produce a generic course this time, not company specific. In this iteration the ATPL course is cut down from the start and modified to match the Doc 7192 requirements. SITA convinced me that they could run the classroom phase quite successfully - this depends more on the competence and drive of the instructors than anything else - and we have talked about a pricing structure which doesn't see unreasonable to me.
I'm sure that SITA will monitor what we deliver as we will watch what they do because its in both our best interests to deliver a good course.
Why don't you give us a chance to do it right? If we mess up, then attack us.
Edited to add: I haven't spoken to SITA about this but I don't think there is any monopoly in our agreement. If an airline, for instance, wanted to run their own version of the course I can't see any reason why we shouldn't provide the Doc 7192 theory course and they provide the on-the-job training to their own company specific procedures, or maybe SITA could run a cut down version of their classroom phase with the airline bolting company specific procedures on the end?
Last edited by Alex Whittingham; 8th Aug 2010 at 18:27.
