doing what you love is great but it doesn't give you a standard of living,when you mates are driving new cars every few years and you show up to work in your 15 yr old car,you will think back to this topic and think !!!! what have i done.
I too loved aircraft and now i earn 3 times as much as i did as a LAME,but it's in retail:p

Good luck Ljones. If your lucky enough to still have a job out of your time you will probably end up adjusting meal trays for the rest of your life. 10 years ago I might have recommended this job, but not today. Theres more money in building or plumbing. Best of luck anyhow.

Agree,
I had a top apprentice, who instead of getting an offer at Avionics, where he should be, was offered a position at QDS, Richmond or a position on a Cabin Interior Crew, despite my complaints to Management. He now adjusts meal trays instead of fixing Avionic defects (did many months in Mods and knows more up to date stuff than I do). What a waste of talent. Did Management ask the Seniors LAME’s on the floor about his knowledge and ability, NOT ON YOUR LIFE, just some d!ck non trade interviewer who would know nothing about his history, knowledge and ability. It is just another disgrace from ACS….

W.T.F.Is.Going.On.:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:
D!ckheads ?????:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

just great!
 

hey guys,

I recently applied for the Qantas Engineering Apprenticeship, and I got a phone call last Friday about the the Aptitude Test that commences on Saturday 17th November 2007 at 09:00 in Sydney. I googled 'QANTAS Engineering Apprenticeship' with hope to find some more information about it, but after reading this topic I’m totally confused and disappointed somehow.
I live in Tasmania and career options here are limited, but that's not the point. I really would like to become an Aircraft Maintenance Engineer and prefer to work on the Helicopters, but as a newie don't know where to go and look for an apprenticeship. If I'd like to go to school and do a course, than I would still need a job provider to get enrolled. Qantas was one of the providers that gave me a reply. NOw I have no ideas should I stay or should I go !!!:ugh::ugh:
but I just don't want to waste another year doing :mad: grocery, hospitality or whatever...
I'd finally like to get on track and do my trade.

did you guys apply somewhere else besides qantas?

When it come to make your life time decisions and choose the right options without screwing the rest of your short life, :mad:happens.

here's the lowdown
 

OK all....
It is true that QF management are idiots. That's what happens when people get performance bonuses...they will do anything to get it, because they know they won't be there in a few years to sort out the mess they create...
The biggest single issue with QF is the number of people in it for themselves who can and do hide behind the HUGE bureaucracy...meaning, there are so many people with an inflated opinion of their own importance, but when the !!!! hits the fan, trying to find the people responsible is impossible....
QF train apprentices very well, the bonus is it's a company that has a good reputation, despite the truth from the workforce...
You will hear all sorts of doom and gloom...at the end of your time you may be lucky and be one of the chosen few, but any other employer in the industry will look favourably on your training...
As an apprentice, you should do your basics whilst doing your apprenticeship, the company will reimburse you, and it puts you in great stead with the outside world of aviation.
You can go anywhere in the industry with the training.
The days of earning double the average wage are long gone though.
The rest of the world has caught up and in many cases surpassed the QF engineer.
But one day all the old buggers at the top have to retire.....
PS Consider Queensland Aviation School and read Friday's Australian newspaper Aviation section....and ring people in the ads....asks questions and most people are decent and will give answers
There is a whole world out there...QF is just a small part of it:ok:

what rubbish,you will not be held in any regard you will be like the rest of the aviation industry engineers,screwed,i to was a lame in Heavy maint and the best i could get after the lay offs last year was an AME position earing 35k per ye base,and thats with 20 yrs industry experience,don't waste your life look to a career with a future,and it's not aircraft maintenance.

G'day marek s. tas,

If you are that way inclined with helicopters, why not try an apprenticeship with the Australian Defence Force (ADF), particularly the Army or the Navy. The Defence Force would be an excellent training opportunity, particularly with the new hardware that is coming online in the next few years, combined with working on cutting edge miltary technology, job security and travel. :ok: The Navy in particular are crying out for aircraft and avionics technicians (all rotary wing), to a point where the entrance standards are substantially lower than their Army and Air Force counterparts. And the big $$$$$ in the Navy while at sea:O, not for everyone though.

However, over the Tasman in Victoria there is also a newly established John Holland Aviation Services (JHAS) -www.jhas.com.au, at Melbourne Airport. JHAS have the capacity to maintain both civilian and military aircraft as well, so that should prove interesting.

Best of luck, but on a final note, QANTAS apprentice "administration":rolleyes: are depressingly useless so I would give them the big flick. Once again, try either the ADF or some Commercial/GA companies over on the mainland.


P.S.> Have you tried the Yellow Pages under Aviation?

Cheers,

Has anyone had response for 2008 Qantas apprenticeship opportunity
 

Hey, just wondering has anyone heard any response from Qantas for 2008 apprenticeship intake? I sent my application form two weeks ago

UNDERGROUND FLAVA your 16 and already showing signs of intelligent life,you should take instruction very well with this attitude and really propel yourself in this carer of aircraft maintenance,your attitude should determine your altitude ,d!ckhead

IMHO
I would not advocate applying for any position in engineering in aviation.
Management see engineering as an expensive nuisance and is treated as such. (Pilots in Oz also in the accountants gun sights)
Grassmere Avenue's post is true for when I did my apprenticeship but sadly no longer the case. You end up jack of all trades master of none and you are not accredited or qualified to do anything else.
Once you have completed your training you have a life of 24 hour 7 day shift work ahead of you. Which is Not as glamorous as it sounds.

James russell. I have known at least 6 apprentices with same career aspirations as your self. All keen to learn which is refreshing but all bar 1 were not keen to do. The thing about maintenance engineering is learning the system, how to fix it and how to do it more efficiently next time. The would be pilots in my experience were not interested in rounding this part of their skill set as they thought they would not need it. Wasted my time.Please don't be one of them.

If I wanted to fly and was willing to do a trade, pick electrician or plumber. You will be well paid plus you can do cash jobs to pay for your flying. Do a diploma in business aviation and go from there.
If you end up in the sticks doing flying work to get your hours, there is always work for building trades in rural areas and not so much for an inexperienced aircraft engineer especially in GA. Where your big plane experience is worth nothing until you can prove otherwise. And you will probably have to prove it for no wages.
(not sure but I think the current QF apprenticeship is big plane only and has GA stuff removed from curriculum)

Last but not least QF have a terrible reputation for how it treats its apprentices. In 95 they sacked a whole year of 4th year end apprentices and have not been able fill apprentice vacancies since. As someone mentioned above they are looking for many apprentices, but they can't get enough applications to fill the numbers. eg Back when I applied 20 something years ago they had over 2000 aplicants for 60 jobs without advertising.
Now with advertising they cant fill the positions open.

ACS recently told all their AMEs that there was no hope of progression to becoming licensed, so their career is now stifled subsequently many AMEs and some LAMEs are leaving at a rate never seen before at 1 per week.
For mine. I am in and wish I could get out, but the road for any new starters is completely different to the one I travelled which I believe will be much less rewarding in job satisfaction and monetarily.
Look before leap
:ok:

Not QF please.
 

I agree with Bolty, do it but not at QF anymore. No chance of progression, just slave labor with no respect. Go anywhere else, it is a good job but you need management that recognises your value.

S_cct

James Russell and marek s. tas,

Sorry boys - but Bolty speaks the truth. Please don't waste a good proportion of your early working careers by starting at Qantas. You both sound young and keen and you won't be well served by being at Qantas. The training is a distant faded shadow of what I received when I started in the late 80's. The jet base in Sydney is a rickety old skeleton of what was once a grand mini city of aircraft and component/engine maintenance. What's left now (after the accountants were allowed to take over the world) is barely enough for those of us left to keep the current fleet in the air. Some areas that I spent time in and learning during my apprenticeship were an engine shop that stripped and rebuilt up to 6 types of high bypass fan engines, 2 types of turbo prop engines, a turbo prop test-cell, a workshop that overhauled all the major engine components - yes, i got to strip and rebuild starters, fuel control units, generators, pumps, valves, motors etc. there was a propellor overhaul section, a chair maintenance 'Bay', a complete fibreglass workshop, 4 sheetmetal shops, a 'survival' section where escape slide/rafts & lifejackets were overhauled, a wheel & brake overhaul section, major maintenance on 767, 747, 747-400, RAAF Hercules C130, RAAF 707..........the list goes on. NONE of this will be available to you!
The training was unavoidable and relentless. It was a system of training that was fantastic at turning out engineers who had a great base for going on and are now the ones keeping the aircraft and the line stations running. Then accountants and globalisation arrived one day and now all this stuff has been "relocated" "downsized" "rationalised" "outsourced" "re-directed" and "put out to tender". As I said, with our newfound lack of resources, we're hard pressed to maintain our fleet to any sort of decent standard let alone have any resources or time/facilities to provide new people a decent shot at training. As with everywhere else in " the current climate" , the almighty dollar rules and it's all about "minimal" cost and minimum everything else.

As an example, for the introduction of the Airbus A380, Qantas will be training approx 18-24 people on the aircraft. If this is the level of engineering input that Qantas believe is adequate for their "Pride of the Fleet" where do you think that will leave you?

There have also been persistent rumours for years of "Qantas, the airline" spinning/selling off engineering and/or making it a subsiduary. Very soon you may find yourself not working for Qantas, but 'Red Rat Low Cost Maintenance Services."

Yep, when I want to replace a titanium duct because it's damaged, I "cost" the airline money. There is pretty much nothing I do that "makes" money for Qantas so the numbercounters just want to get rid of engineering altogether.

Please listen to blokes like me and Bolty who have been very well trained in this industry and have seen the gradual (and lately, steep) decline in the engineering arm of Qantas. People such as yourselves who are young and keen, in fact keen enough to seek out web chatrooms to find out about a potential career should direct your energies toward a skill/trade that will serve you better in making some progression through life.

Obviously aviation is an interest, if not a passion for you, so try to find a way to incorporate it in your life as a hobby/sidelight rather than "a job" as an aircraft engineer - you will only be dissapointed.

Trust me - (hundreds of people do each day with their lives) I'm not trying to burst your bubble or be negative - MY job is good and the pay is still adequate - unfortunately for you, at Qantas currently, there is a snowflakes chance in hell of you coming close to achieving the same level of training/pay under the current system.

You must have another passion or interest, why not try Formula 1 Driver or rockstar?

im an avionics apprentice and go to school with the qantas apprentices, and would have to say that im getting a better apprenticeship than they are, just because its a big airline, it doesnt mean its all the goods.

Another person in my class is working as an avionics apprentace for an oil company and is earing around the $800 mark a week (1st year BTW).

I echo the sentiments of Bolty and Spanner Turner.

What I would recommend is apply and take the apprenticeship if its offered(in lieu of any better offer) but don't stop looking for other options.

Your opportunities are very limited in QF (for the forseeable future anyway). This MAY change but don't hold your breath. If you get the job you should be prepared to ditch them if you find a better option (they won't hesitate to ditch you).

Personally, I have a had great training and opportunities at QF over the last 20 years but I took the option of leaving for precisly that reason. Limited future career prospects within Qantas.

PS its not too late to leave Bolty- I love not working nighshift and weekends anymore. If your out of work for longer than a few weeks I will be very surprised.

Show me the money numbskull, You know i have a very expensive beer habit to support.


This sounds interesting.. Is this person working on helicopters
Thinking of venturing down this road myself unless numbskull get me a high paying gig at his place...

The only problem with what I'm doing now is that I drive keyboard 90% of the time these days.

Its not very exciting but it pays well and you don't get the "Operational stress" that LAMES have trying to fix broken planes with minimal spares, downtime, manpower etc.

Bolty with your experience you should be able to pick up either contract or full time work in the Defence industry around the $75 -$90k mark for Mon-Fri work. (I know 1 guy is on $57 p/hour and he's not particularly special)It depends on how good a deal you can negotiate for yourself. Plenty of QF people have found work at Garden Is.

PM me next time your in town and we'll catch up for a beer

So, has anyone been contacted by Qantas yet? James Russell, how have things worked out?

yes, helicopters!

2008 QANTAS apprenticeships
 

Hey guys,
just wondering if anyone who visits this forum has made it to the medical/police check stage of their QANTAS AME apprenticeship application. I have! fingers crossed for myself and everyone else. Although, if the the comments of others that suggest QANTAS should not be cosidered as a choice of employer for their given reasons are true, then perhaps I should terminate my application now and let some other poor bastard have the chance/position?! ;) just a thought.

big mistake
 

18 and making a big mistake. Remember when your mother told you to do something and you never listen, then years later you think back and she was right the whole time. thats whats happening here.

he's some more info. After doing your time and completing basics, and 2 years service

Trade + 8 Basics and your 6 years service then you are
QF AME level 10 = $25.12 p/h

Trade + ALL basics + Type course + SOE + 6-8 years sevice then you are
QF LAME Level 3 = $26.94 p/h if you get a course or pay for one and they recognise it.

Do yourselves a favour and ask your mates dads and their mates what hourly rate they are on, i bet it's higher. Passion for aircraft only last a while, then you need a house!

Aus01
 

Sorry mate QF anit the only bad boy in aus aviation. other airlines are no better when it comes to pay or any of the other issues you've been warned about. its all the same today . 7 years ago i made a bad mistake buy takeing an apprentiship, now a LAME on $25.00/hr i kick myself everytime time i sign to think i am certifing for A/C maintenace for $25.00/hr i can throw bricks or concret for $30/hr


DONT DO IT

RAAF !
 

My God Ronnie RAAF ! ! !
Fun Job but no money there either ! ! !

Reply to QF22.
 

Mate, I know the Air-Force doesn't pay that well. It does, however, offer a huge range of allowances/benefits on top of an airman's normal salary. i.e. The Defence Credit Union offers full-time and part-time members of the Australian Defence Force low interest rates on Home Loans, lower than bank and other Home Loan lenders. Not to mention the amount of allowances you get when on operations and exercises.

Most of all though, i reckon i'll get job satisfaction and career progression in the Air-Force, aswell as the ability to work with people my own age, which is something that members of this forum say that QANTAS doesn't offer.

Eshlon,

I wish you the best of luck to your endeavours with QANTAS Engineering. However, in light of the previous replies, you might want to look somewhere else with better career prospects and progression.

The Australian Defence Force would be a good move I would think. The Navy, Army and Air Force offer apprenticeships in Avionics, Mechanical and Structures. The equivalent of an Avionics streamed AME, is known as an Avionics Technician across the three services. The main difference is that the RAAF is all fixed wing, while the Navy (pays more) and Army operate all the rotary wing assets.

With the pay side of things, I don’t know many other occupations that you could walk straight into earning $49,000+ p.a., along with your training paid for, free health and dental care, subsidised accommodation and a few of the other perks that Eshlon mentioned before. Consequently, this drives your wage further when compared to living in civvy world as you don’t have many of the usual expenses. Not to mention that your pay keeps going up in healthy increments, and as a technician your pay can go up to $100,000 p.a. based on rank and posting. It’s the bigger picture that people haven’t seen here, maybe it’s because people only see $$$$$$$$$ signs.:rolleyes:

Not to steer away from the aircraft trades, but the RAAF also has a mustering called a Communication and Electronics Technician, that might better reflect some of the work you have done in your apprenticeship and have a better chance at gaining RPL from already completed/related modules.

I wouldn't mind the Rarely Active After Four lifestyle on base, no hope of that though in the Navy or the Army!;)

Regards,

Just got offered an aprenticship with Qantas as an AME avionics. Wonder why it took so long for them to make a decision.
A few questions...
Is a pathway to Uni to do like Aerospace enginneering? I know technically that there is but how probable is it that you would be accepted into a Uni course after doing an apprenticeship.
I havent finished school yet, i am about half way through Yr 12, is it worth finishing or doing the apprentcieship now?

I you want to go to Uni, finish year 12 and got to uni. Don't do an apprenticeship which takes 4 years.

I your smart enough to get into aeronautical engineering then I would advise you to go down that path. Not into a fairly dead end trade with little earning capacity and even less training available to get a licence. Sure, the training by major airlines might change in the future (or it may not) but either way you'll be earning well less than the average wage for the first 10 years of your career.

Go to uni if you can, you'll earn more money and be earning well above the average wage probably straight after you finish.

Plus Aeronautical Engineers are highly sought after by Formula 1,Indy and other car racing teams for their design abilities.And there are loads of other interesting industries that require those types of engineering skills.

If you really want to be a LAE after doing university,then you can always go back(or is it backwards) as you will still be young enough.

I thought I would add my experiences with QF into the mix. I did a Mechanical apprenticeship starting in 96 and finishing in 00. Bear in mind that much may have changed since then.

Don't get too worried if you receive papers from QF where the application date has already past. This is just how things work there. Fill in the forms and send them off. Do tick the AME box, as it is generally easier to get onto better things than ticking the AM box.

The initial testing for the apprenticeship consist of a set of aptitude tests. From memory, there is a mechanical aptitude test (i.e. you are given a drawing of a gear train and you must figure out which way the various gears turn / drawings of various shapes and you must decide which two items are identical etc), a English grammar test, a mental arithmetic test, and one more that escapes my memory (may be a short written test on your motivations for working with QF / why you would be a good engineer etc.)

The interview is the next stage if you pass. This used to be conducted by engineering personel, so there was none of the usual nonsence you get with job interviews. If you were going for avionics, you are given a circuit board where you have to identify various components. Mechanical guys are asked to describe the workings of 2 and 4 stroke engines with the aid of a sectioned engine.

If you get the apprenticeship, you then start your training. This used to be a combination of the first nine months at the QF apprentice training school (don't think it exists anymore). You go to your fist section in the last three months of the first year. Second and third years alternates between rotations at the jetbase, and block release at TAFE. Fourth year consists of rotations at the jetbase.

You can get a degree through QF (cadetship), but you will have to finish your apprenticeship first. Bear in mind, that the cadetship is another eight year commitment. You spent the fist two years at uni, and the alternate between a year at QF, and a year of uni. At the end of this, you have to give another two years to QF. You can apply for Mechanical and Aero engineering, and another degree, which is basically a management / business type degree. Bear in mind that the final choice as to the degree you get is decided by QF.

On a personal note, if you want a aircraft maintenance engineering trade, with experience on the big jets, then go for QANTAS, as it is the only employer offering this in OZ. If you do like planes, it is very interesting, but bear in mind that there is lots of tedious crap as well.

Also bear in mind what the old hands have said. Training was always a contentious issue at QF. It is certaily a case of "it's not what you know, it's who you know". Also be prepared for shift work and the restriction it places on your life. It certainly gave me the !!!!s when my mates were out and about and I was working.

The best way to possibly see it, is gaining an apprenticeship and some experience that you use to get into other areas. Of the 5 blokes that started with me as mechanical AME's, 5 have gone back to uni (3 thru QF cadetship, 2 including me off our own backs) with only one left still at QF.

My colleagues still at QF genrally reflect the sentiments of some of the older hands who have written here. That is, things are not what they used to be, and going down hill.

In summary, go for the apprenticeship if you want to, as not many people ever get to play with jet engines and 747's, but keep an eye out for other opportunities as other have said. Think of your QF apprenticehip as a stepping stone to stuff outside of QF.

Regards, JetMech

Forget QF, BAE Systems is looking for apprentices in all trades at all sites, basic AME wage when finished is $26.40 hr, or about $55K. and that only working a 4 day shift, every weekend is 3 days long! work hrs are 6 am to 4 pm, mon to thurs.
you will be working on Millitary aircraft, so market forces are not a factor in wage yearly increases, in the 4 yrs i have been here, it has average 4% PA. not to mention performance bonuses of about $4000 PA. and with life of type contracts at most sites, work wont be drying up any time soon..

im ex QF, QF is a sheltered workshop, unless you get on your hands and knees under a desk, you will NOT get anywhere.

PM me if you want any more info....

sites are Pearce with the Hawk 127, Williamtown with the F18 Hornet and Hawk 127, Townsville, Holsworthy, Nowra working on sea Hawk, sea King and squirrel, blackhawk Brisbane working on Hercs and F111 occasionally.

apply to the air new zealand engineering school, sure its across the tasman n such, but its a really good setup here in christchurch and there are good prospects at the end, not to mention if you get your licence then you can go anywhere in the world pretty much. better than any building jobs cos you get to mess with aircraft :8

except that you have to pay air nz for your servicess.. ???:confused:

A bit off topic but does anyone have a contact for Qantas HR or the engineering dept at melbourne. I am a LAME looking for work.

Thanks

I did my apprenticeship there, and got bugger all out of it apart from part filled SOE's I now work elsewhere and after being there for a year they are offering Licence courses to AME's. Also on your days off go work in GA like I did through your apprenticeship and get your Group 1 at least and try and get group 5, 6, and 10 which will give you a reduction on group 20/21. There are plenty of GA places which would welcome your cheap labour and at the same time you are setting up yourself for endless opportunities. People employ LAME's more than AME's. Also the experience you get in GA is so much more than what you will ever get at Qantas, aka fitters engineers as thats what really goes on when you think about it. Just watch out for management and don't piss anyone off, as that will be it for your career.

hey engineer aus can you tell me who at casa told you they would give a group 20/21 redustion for ga? all i have been told by them is NO CHANCE IN HELL..... lol.:ugh:

Group 1,5,6,10 will give you a 20% reduction in your group 20/21 Airframe.
Then if you have a Group 20/21 you have to do some work in Sked maintenance on your group 1, and you get given 5,6,10

qantas dont want lame's
 

qantas wont you to stay a ame after your apprenticeship. no training given anymore. i am 2 yrs out of the apprenticeship and now have to look for something else as they do not offer a career other than ame. it has all changed in the last 5-6 yrs

stay away is my best advice.

low moral at the sydney jet base and heaps of engineers leaving.

sorry all

2 Perth AME's are going to get a course. About time.

It is worth doing a QF Apprenticship!!!

I moved to Perth after completing an apprenticeship with QF and I have had no problems finding well paid work for an AME with good career progression towards getting licensed. The work isn't to stressful and the shift suits me.
As there is a shortage of engineers, there are many companies who are looking for licensed and unlicensed engineers. If you work hard, fill in your SOE and have you basics you will be given a course. If you don't mind working on Metros or other group 1 aircraft, after about a year of filling out your 1,5,6 and 10 SOE with a good company, you can earn about 75000 on shift with no course required!
There are opportunities to earn around 100K once you get a group 20 license.
With the average age of LAMEs being so high, more aircraft operating in Australia and not enough engineers being trained, there will be no shortage of jobs for engineers in the future.
I suggest that most of the people who tell you not do a QF apprenticeship are the ones who want everything handed to them on a plate and are too damn lazy to get off there arse and work for it.
It beats me how unblocking someones drain or installing someones oven could a better job than working on multi million dollar aircraft, you may get the big dollars a year or 2 quicker in other trades but in the long run, you can get pad just as well if not better fixing aircraft. Sure there are the mundane jobs but if you score a line job like I have then most of the work is pretty good!
The opportunities are out there, you just have to ask questions and find them!

For those of you who failed in your ambitions to be a rich QF LAME, please do not try to discourage others to justify your own choices!!!

If you really want to work on aircraft for a living then go for it. You will be a lot happier doing that than doing something you don't like for the sake of 10-20K a year. And if you do need the money then just hunt around for it cause its there!!!!

follow your dreams
 

AME and LAME is an awesome career. Get you Cert IV in aeroskills and complete an apprenticship and work hard. Too may Y gen people out there want everything haned to them on a platter and they want it now. And too there are too many old school LAME with their head in the sand that keep telling everyone that all our conditions are being erroded away. Once you are a qualified AME try contracting instead of working for an MRO. And work on getting your SOE on Group 20 to get a licence asap. Contractors are paid 20% more than permies, just remember you get not holiday or sick leave.

im an ame and i recommend to do another trade unless you really love the jet, its bad money, very low moral, boring, training is very unorganised, no job security, just to name a few. even if you do your basics and type courses you will join the Que of many ame's with self funded licenses not getting reconised by the company