How to get into line maintenace
 

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone could help me here? I’ve just finished University gaining a 2:1 BEng Aeronautical Engineering honours degree, previous to that I did a BTEC national diploma in aerospace engineering.

I went off to University after 9/11 as there were little to no engineering apprenticeship schemes out there, but now I cannot see anyway into the line maintenance industry!! Any apprenticeship schemes all have age limits that I am way above being 23; and all jobs advising the positions all require you to have a licence! So my question is how would I get into the industry, where can I train for my licence and do airlines even take on people like me?

Any help or advice you can give me would be greatly received! Many thanks Martyfly

i'm in a simularish situation
 

I'm 23 but have no Degree, so really not to simular. However i am looking at enginering places, Like you say all the big airlines are gonna say your to old, however some inderpendant aircraft maintenace companies might be intrested, try Lasham, type it to google on a uk only search, good luck

Most line stations want licensed guys, usually at the very least an A License, or better with a B1/2 license.

There are mechanics positions out there, but not many. Do a search on here or on AirMech.co.uk and find out about becoming licensed, which if you want a career in line maintenance, you will really need. Two routes, an approved 147 training course, or self study module by module.

See if you can't get some work experiance with a line maintenance organisation, you'll see if you like the work, and the guys will fill you in on what you should be doing in the way of licenses.

Once upon a time, when I were a lad, you got into Line Maintenance by getting kicked out of the workshops. I managed to get on The Line by systematically failing to get a single generator to pass the armature insulation resistance test in six weeks. (For the record, when cleaning an armature with unleaded petrol you can air blast the resulting carbon sludge well into the windings then crank the drying oven up to max temp. to bake it into a solid 300 ohm crust. ;) )

Today, as PhilM says, you need at least an 'A' licence to be welcome out in the cold.

I'm intrigued about someone with an upper second wishing to work on the Line - it takes all sorts, I suppose. Its probably best not to mention the degree when trying for a job as an unlicensed mechanic. Once you've got into an airline or general aviation, do the practical experience and the theory exams to get the licence.

Yes, airlines do hire gaduate engineers, but usually in the Tech Support Services area.

how to get into line, I normally take the bus, unless I'm late then I'll get a cab.
Look around at what's going on in the area you wish to work and try and find out about the company, apply and ask questions. Also mybe an agencey may have a position going.
Look at www.airmech.co.uk as these questions being asked there all the time.

I'm in pretty similar situation as you are. See thread below :-

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=208324

I've applied to quite a few places & had no luck whatsoever. Giving serious consideration to saving up a bit of cash and starting the EASA approved course at Kingston University this September if possible. (if anyone's done this could they drop me a PM?).

To the people who are a bit bemused why graduates are wanting practical work, for me it's because i'm completely disillusioned with office based engineering work. All the petty politics, constant e-mails full of bollo*ks, Microsoft Access, Project & Excel nonsense & meetings are bringing me down. I really want a chance to work on aircraft & I think I'd be really good at it.

Dont worry you are not the only one. I did an Engineering Degree, and ended up on the line. Luckily I chose the right place to work. I was in BA and got my licences there, but now Im at work 0500 out in the cold (-14 today) doing daily checks. I moved to the line when I was 28 after 5 years in offices and don't regret it.

Thank you
 

Hi all

First of all thank you to everyone who has replied to my post, all the information has been a great help to me! Just a quick question to Swedish Steve, how did you apply for the position with BA? was it through a graduate entry scheme or did you just apply for advertised jobs?

Many thanks

Martyfly

am I the only aero degree holder to stay in the office? When I first graduated I had to earn peanuts and work my way up through maintenance checks in microfiche readers, planning jobs, tech support etc. etc etc
Now I am engineering manager for a maintenance facility and to be honest my technical skills are used for less than 50% of the job, as most of the time is logistic, HR, training, planning, international travel, sometimes not being the most popular person but university prepares you for that. In my experience university graduates are not the best working directly in the aircraft. They are not "hard" enough. The best guys worked their way up the appi route and have been "hands on" (I hope I got the message across correctly because I have probably offened somebody there, but that is not the intention)
Register with flightinternational.com automated email system for jobs and click on admin. Even if you just get you foot in the door in the records department, you become more employable and get contacts.
Much as the industry moans about not enough mechanics, the mechanics are not paid enough and treated to appalling conditions. As is often noted, car mechanics can pull more money, work in better facilities, with modern equipment and basically not have to take the rap if their workmanship is not up to scratch, but once you put your stamp against an aircraft job, its a legal responsibility. So think carefully before you set your mind on working on the line (3am Sunday morning, raining, cold and dark, being blown around on a "cherry picker" and all you got is a coat, torch and a spanner to fix a snag before the aircraft departs at 6)
but hey I am sticking to this cut throat avaition industry... I am to dumn to do anything else.

Any jobs going? ;-)

just took on three final year students from the local university two weeks ago (last two we trained up got poached, after three years with us, by another local carrier)

T'was worth a shot I suppose!

No harm in asking

If you need any trainees or tech services staff in the future, you know where to find (a potential) one!

Number one is to make sure that whatever company you want to work for considers line to be a career position.

From my experiences, signature flight support surely blew it at dulles when the line guys realized that signature does not consider it a career positon and bailed leaving unqualified guys to work a busy ramp.

There is not much incentive to grow and advance when the positions are not considered "career".

Who you work for is as important as what you choose to do.

My condolences to any 604 challenger pilot who rolls up to Signature Dulles a few times a week an never gets the same fueler twice because it's not a career position.

Not recognizing someone on the ground crew at a place you stop many times a week does not inspire confidence in the hearts of the flight crew.

Chances of a grad going into a line maintenance position are virtually zero, and so they should be. Consider this, the average guy in line maintenance has served a 3 or 4 year apprenticeship, has several years post apprenticeship experience and at least an A licence. For a certifying B licence holder, chances are he has spent about 7 years + getting to a position where he is competant to do the job. Also a "liney" is not just a liney. Many have spent time in hangars doing A checks C checks and majors etc. Compare that to your average ppruners time spent in training. Don't get me wrong the skill that most graduates have are very usefull in the industry, but not in line maintenance.

Having recently reviewed CVs for my company looking for techs and LAEs there is very little out there experience wise that could fill the role. In fact most company's now will only employ people with several years experience on wide body, 737 or whatever. The traditional route is a school/college leaver is to go the apprentice route. If this was not possible then many joined the armed forces to get the training. At 23 and a graduate you are too old to just switch to be an engineer without putting in the slog for the next 7 years.

Get real guys - do the several years hands on starting at the bottom on crap wages, when you have enough experience and hands on to know how aircraft work then take your licenses. Not the arse about face way it is done now, college - licence and then look for a job at £45K a year and bleat when no one wants you.

Call me old fashioned but keep graduates where they belong - in the offices. Most hands on engineers knew what they wanted to do when they were 10, never mind 23 !!

True. Very true!

But when you've turned fifty, the eyes can't focus on anything closer than eight feet, your back complains every time you stand up and your knees only bend 75 degrees instead of the 120 they managed easily when you were only forty, then its time to head for the office. The old degree is very handy if you can dust it off, polish the C.V. a bit and scrounge a job in a nice warm office. (or a nice cool one depending on where you live) Otherwise you might find yourself at the top of a cherry picker in a brisk sub-zero north-easterly blowing freezing rain down your neck at 2 a.m. and wondering what the f*ck you were thinking about when you went into line maintenance... :ugh:

Cheers for the handy advice, but I doubt very much that the majority of people on here knew that they wanted to become a skilled engineer by such a young age. I reckon that that was one of the only available routes back then. These days, there is so much more choice.

I always wanted to be an engineer, but it’s so hard to pinpoint EXACTLY what aspect you want to get in to when it’s time to decide whether you want to go to university (18 is quite young, you know). Today’s academic system almost forces you to go into higher education. It hardly Blair’s Britain when you can’t focus on something else after uni!

The general jist is - when you’re 17 you can do it, when you’re 6 six years older than that there’s no chance. Also, where did anyone bleat for £45K?? I’d work for peanuts for a few years to get the experience.

It all just seems a bit discriminatory against graduates in a sort of “you can’t hack the skilled life”. Which, to me, sounds like a load of pompous old balls.

No wonder the planet is crying out for skilled, certified engineers with attitudes like this! There are plenty of young engineers who would relish the chance & put 100% into it but, alas, everyone wants to keep it institutionalised.

Why should graduates stay in the office??

first....
 

First...you have to learn how to make the tea.....

Thanks for that condescending insight.

In case the message isn't clear, that's what I would you like to learn.

Tough one this...

The crux seems to be that airlines are now run by managers whose only focus is cost, and that means no-one does apprenticeships anymore because they cost money.

This has led to the ludicrous situation so aptly described by the above posts - to become an aircraft engineer you have to go to uni, but following that, the airlines don't want you because you have no hands on experience or history. Then the industry bleats on about a lack of qualified, experienced signatories..

As stated above, the most effective way in is to start at the bottom and work your way up, but that is of little comfort to someone who has just invested the last three years in a mountain of student debt and a shiny new degree certificate. It may simply be the case that you will have to start as a basic mechanic, greasing undercarriages and cleaning windows, and work through technician up to license holder.

I was lucky enough to be awarded a place on one of the last 'proper' apprenticeships run by BA in the early 90's, where one of the real advantages was that by the time I was allowed to actually do anything on an aircraft, I already had a three year long proven track record - my employer already knew me and my strengths and weaknesses. It is a bit of a risk for someone to take on an engineer with no proven experience, but that would appear to be a catch 22 situation entirely of the industries own making, and unfortunately, as a by product, you (and other new engineers) are suffering as a result.

With respect to my esteemed colleagues, I'm not sure why having a degree should preclude you from line work - it at least demonstrates that you have a brain and are willing to work towards a goal, but I will also back them wholeheartedly in the suggestion that that is only half the battle... an academic accreditation is not the same as doing real work, on a live aircraft at 3am, in the snow, without the proper equipment, with fingers so numb you can't feel what you are doing and an airline breathing down your back insisting that they want to fly the plane in 2 hours time.

However, that still doesn't mean that deep down you aren't capable of such self discipline, but in this business there is no substitute for experience and you DO have to prove yourself I'm afraid.

I think, as with most of the important jobs in aviation, (Pilot, Engineer, ATC etc...) the only route to success is sheer hard work and determination - after all, you don't get to Captain a Jumbo without slogging about in a Cessna first, degree or not.

I wish you the best of luck, I hope my post isn't too negative, and remember that if you really want to do it, with a bit of effort you probably can, assuming that on a basic level you actually have the ability... :):)

Its not just the airlines ANOTHER ton, the "cost-focus" management style is I believe a symptom of the whole aerospace industry. I was recently talking with a design engineer with a certain large manufacturer ( not Boeing there's a hint ;) ) about how many new graduates etc. they are taking. He was telling me that they are going nuts trying to find relatively young but experienced people at the moment. Because there is such a distinct lack of such people they have had to lower their requirements and have in the most case accepted that they aren't going to get anyone with experience and so have recruited a raft of graduates knowing that they'll have to get the senior engineers to hold their hands for a while before they are fully competent. Something which, he added, is starting to grate on the senior people who didn't sign up to train people day in day out. The manufacturing companies are really paying for it now on training costs because there are so few middle-level engineers with experience since they cut back on the training and recruitment for the last few years. Why can't these manager-types see that by cutting training and recruitment in the short term they are setting up a landmine for themselves further down the road? Isn't the obvious solution a relatively consistent level of training and recruitment year in year out or am i trying to be too sensible?
With regard to people going to do engineering degrees rather than apprenticeships in my experience part of the blame has to lie with school career services and the education system. Most school career services are fairly ignorant of the routes into engineering depending on the type of work you want to do and they are naturally motivated to pushing people towards the universities because of the league tables. When i was at school and said "I want to be an engineer!" the careers advsior never said "Right, lets see what different routes into that are on offer." No instead his automatic response was "Right lets look at what kind of engineering degrees you can apply for." I am sure most graduates would have similar experiences. I know several graduates who would never have started their degree if they had known that in order to get into line maintenance an apprenticeship was the way to go. I am glad to hear though from some posters that for graduates who do want to get into line maintenance the door isn't completely slammed shut but just a bit more awkward to open :)

As one of the lucky ones to have been properly trained as an engineering apprentice with a very large British airline, from the time of leaving school, working my way up to the Certifying Licensed Engineer, I for one cannot understand the mentality that training costs money. Especially since leaving the large airline for many years I have had to work with staff of varying standards of education, basic training, knowledge and abilities. Which at some places leaves a great deal to the imagination…?

I have worked with staff who wouldn’t even know how to check the engine oil level correctly, and the bottom line is even the engine oil costs.
"edited out"
How can you rely on a few of your staff carrying the rest of those who just make up the numbers, passable on every day routine tyre kicking, checking the oil and changing the odd wheel or brake unit, passing the time of day with the hostess, hoping for a cup of something warming. But what when a PFR requires something more than that, an engine problem, a flight controls problem or some idiot has just hit the side of your aeroplane and they are screaming at you that there is nothing else to use for that service, who do you turn too, tech services, the man in the MCC, are you sure, your direct line manager.
The tech services, (degree holders, many who have not been near an aeroplane, except for that brief introduction during there induction into the company, the mail boy between you and the manufacturer, or the regulatory authority) What’s the point of taking on a degree holder who has been no where near an aircraft then having to retrain them, what an aeroplane is then when they have enough of that, or the opportunity comes along, leave and move onto another position in another company in a totally unrelated subject.

Or the MCC staff, (full of office staff), many of whom have not been out on the front line for how long???
Your Line manager, the man who has been promoted over you, him, who suckered up to the right people and joined the right social clubs, who didn’t tell the boss to his face what he didn’t want to here. The leopard who has changed his spots over night.


3 to 4 years of basic, good training straight from school, can repay over the 30-40 years you will be productive and move on up the ladder, head held high.

I agree totally. I think a major problem is that too many managers are just managers, not airline people. The days of people like Juan Trippe (Pan Am / 747) who could be considered 'airline' people, people who saw through simple cost and went boldly ahead with true aviation vision are sadly over. Never again will we see a development programme like Concorde, something that was fraught with financial risk and was never really a commercial success, but, by god, what a machine!

The people making the critical decisions these days are unfortunate products of the issues at the core of this whole thread - they (by and large) have not worked their way up form the shop floor, and have no understanding of the fundamental issues involved in aircraft engineering. They have no concept of the skills sets required to make a good aircraft engineers / designers, and I have a suspicion that, in many cases, they only occupy a management position for as short a time as possible as they progress up the ladder. From their point of view, long term intiatives are not a good game plan, as they are sometimes a bitter pill to swallow in terms of short term expenditure. Far better from their seat to save a few more quid now and hope that they have moved on by the time this sort of thing happens. 'Sorry, not my problem anymore!'...very new labour... :)

In terms of money spent, on training, apprenticeships and quality staff, less is most definitely less.

This is not only a problem in engineering, but rife throughout the whole scope of the industry. Many functions and jobs these days are farmed out to the lowest bidder, and surprise surprise, the levels of quality decrease. For example, aircraft cleanliness in my company these days is shocking, most departures I have to go around and pick up the rubbish left between seats and in galleys, frequently emptying toilet bins that have been forgotten. The people who clean the aircraft now are from a cleaning company that, by definition, has the contract because they put in the lowest bid. The thing that might surprise managers in ivory towers is that they were able to put in the lowest bid because they pay the lowest wages, and the poor sods who do the actual work have, understandably, very little interest in going the extra mile. Now, if these same people were employed by the parent company, had staff travel and some semblance of a pension scheme, they would have a vested interest in doing a good job and might show some willing and initiative, and, dare I say it, they may even care!

The botom line is this - an ad goes out for technicians and Licensed guys from a reputable company. What they want is a period of formal recognised training (usually equates as forces training or aircraft apprenticeship) and for a tech say 2 years relevant experience on the types of aircraft they have. For a certifier probably 7 years + experience and at least 2-3 years certifying the company's particular type of aircraft along with supervisory experience. What do you think they get? Guys who have paid for their modules and self studied, done a bit of hands on as part of their modules (usually KLM Norwich), no supervisory experience. Or a grad fresh from Uni who wants to be a tech or engineer. I went through 150 C.Vs recently and there were about 15 from possibles out of that you may get 4 guys you need.

Facts are there are still more guys out there with experience than there are decent jobs, thats why the grads and those with little to no experience will not get a look into an airline on commercial aircraft. The difficulty for companies comes in matching their type ratings to applicants without breaking the bank on training.

So if you are in that position what do you do. First thing is get a job anywhere (and I mean anywhere) to pay for a type course, offer your services FOR FREE for the work experience and be prepared to work hard, learn and put yourself out. Thats what a guy did where I work and guess what - he is now a tech lined up for a few type courses. There is quite simply NO substitute for experience.

I remember one of our best LAEs who did that that hangar-rat. He did all his basic training at own expense, paid was ...B737 Captain. Quite a loss to Line Maintenance that was, but he's happy in his work.

Dunno why though. Flyings not all its cracked up to be... :hmm: