What did I do? Reader's Digest typesetting.
going to bed now, I'll figure it out tomorrow.

Frankly the piloting establishment do themselves far more favours than we do ourselves. Look at the numbers

- To become a technician, about 5 years
- To become a CEng, minimum 8 years (I got in on the old rules with 7 years), usually nearer 10-12
- To become a frozen ATPL, can be done in a year, usually nearer 3 admittedly. Another 18 months of right hand seat flying will give the full ticket.

What the pilots did (and quite right) is make their tickets licenses to practice. Reach the required standard, or leave - very simple. Why the hell don't we do the same in Engineering (yes I know that there are CAA licenses etc. but hangars and design offices are full of people without them, using somebody elses qualifications and signature - you'd never stand for that in a cockpit would you!).

G

And from the BA vs RAF thread on the Military Forum, our correspondent YakYak shows their opinion of civvy engineers............

From a wannabe, who I guess has obviously never had any dealings with aircraft engineering staff (civil or mil), those sorts of comments are a little rich.

I have several good friends in engineering, some civil, some military, and they're all dedicated professionals. Unlike our poster in the Mil Forum http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

------------------
10 West
UK ATC'er
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by 10W (edited 18 September 2000).]

Part of the problem lies in defining "engineer" Genghis is a C.Eng so he obviously qualifies. The LAE still earning his reputation at the sharp end, and with whom most pilots are familiar, is in all honesty a technician. To compare salaries with pilots it is necessary to compare like with like. The ATPL holding "Heavy" Captain is at the top end of the profession, having put his time in. His equivalent in engineering is the high time, high qualification engineer, usually in the "back-room" or perhaps the hangar foreman with his team of fifty or more technicians and responsibility for everything that happens on his watch. I am an LAE, most of us are, that's how we usually start out. I've been at the sharp end on the Line and in the Hangars, but the license is the least of my qualifications. I rate my degree and thirty plus years of experience a bit higher up the scale. In pay and conditions I come a long way behind even the ordinary First Officer, (possibly because there is no trade representation for people like myself? Also, if we withdraw our labour no-one notices for a couple of months :))

Do I or my fellows contribute as much as a Captain? I don't know, there is no way to measure such equivalence. What I do know is that we are getting fewer and fewer all the time. I love meddling with aeroplanes, that's why I do my job, its not just the money. However it gets harder to resist the offer of a non-aviation job with share scheme participation, company BMW and much nicer salary and conditions. In the not too distant future there may be yet another hole in the list of old-timers. Certainly my place will be taken by another, the indispensable man doesn't exist. The thing that ought to be of concern to pilots and public alike is that there are fewer and fewer people entering aviation engineering and thus fewer people on the ladder. The safety record isn't getting any worse, the accident rate is more or less static. Does this mean there is no problem? I don't think so. If there was no problem the accident rate would be contiually reducing towards the ideal of zero. Engineering compensation is at least part of the problem and as the pilots continue to grab more than their fair share of the revenue the day when they will really earn their inflated salaries gets ever closer.

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

I agree absolutely with both 10W and Blacksheep, the question is what do we do about it?

I try hard as a company Chief Engineer to only employ properly qualified people, and keep them properly trained, up to date, and as well rewarded as I can (which isn't very). But the cards are stacked against me - what do you do if you advertise for a CEng job and none apply?, you get a mix of self-taught and just graduated and have to get somebody to do the work. (Answer, employ the best of the bunch on probation and make becoming properly qualified both a condition and right of employment.)

I think the only answer is for the whole Engineering profession to unite and agree ground rules. Last year it became illegal to call yourself an osteopath in the UK without all the proper qualifications, why the hell is this not yet the case with Engineering? As a profession we have existed for several centuries without solving this, which is not very impressive.

Who to blame? I'd start with the EngC, who really should be doing something about this but isn't. Every year I see the EngC council elections, and I've yet to see a candidate whose policy is to make Eng.Tech / CEng / IEng a license to practice - as it is in France or Germany!

G

Sounds to me like we're all pretty much in agreement here.
For 10W - I think your conclusion that the post in MIL forum was a "little rich" is probably very acurate and fair. It's easy to get defensive behind having to justify yourself as both someone who can turn a wrench and also possess a mind. I'm guilty of getting doing that myself when people get too cavalier about what it takes to be a decent mechanic. I don't know how it came to pass that people would see the tools come out and automatically assume that any monkey could do the work; shame on them, and I guess, shame on me too for getting rattled when they clearly just don't understand.
I have pretty good mechanical insticts and skills, but I also know that I can work on aircraft everyday for the next thirty years and I'm still going to be learning something new.
If pilots are able to over-inflate their salaries, that will eventually find it's way back to the mean - but it clearly illustrates what can be achieved with savvy respresentation and formidable solidairity. I envy them - and wish we had more of the same.

If only our unions had a good public relations department like the pilots have...

Seriously, the pilot's unions sell a professional product, and work very hard on their image. We should follow their example, even if it means recurrent testing and culling some deadwood.

http://www.lae.mcmail.com
Associations are, by definition, a body of persons joined together for a common purpose. The ALAE is an Association registered as an Independent Trade Union. As such we may negotiate the terms and conditions for members where the ALAE is recognised by the Company.

Licensed Aircraft Engineers formed the ALAE when the United Kingdom Civil Aviation Authority were looking to abolish the License that many Engineers held with pride - especially as it had been earned through personal effort, experience and knowledge.

Aircraft are increasingly becoming more sophisticated and, again, efforts have been made to remove the Engineers Licence. The ALAE has had to apply pressure to both the United Kingdom Civil Aviation Authority and the European Joint Aviation Authority.

Engineers are the lifeblood of any Industrial organisation. The Aviation Industry is no exception. Its Engineers - many of whom are members of the ALAE - help to ensure the smooth, safe, low profile operation of that Industry.




Registered office:

Bourn House

8, Park Street

Bagshot

Surrey GU19 5AQ



Tel. ++44 (0)1276 474888




[This message has been edited by spannersatcx (edited 19 September 2000).]