Brexit and Engineers
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By the way, Kuchan; here is some CAA advice;
If you wish to continue to release EU-registered aircraft to service you would need to transfer your licence to the National Aviation Authority of another EASA member state before exit day. You are advised to have a discussion with the relevant NAA as soon as possible about their process and timetable for transfers.
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" I have heard old skool BCARs tell me they blagged ****e. And got away with it. Time will tell what happens and we will find out were we are with out people's bull**** and views of the past will be the same as the furture. "
With all due respect Albert, I feel some of those who made this boast may have been just a shade prone to exaggeration shall we say.
Did mine many years ago under the BCAR regs and I can assure you, that, trying to blag your way through a decidedly detailed interview with questions selected at random, plus more in depth questions about any errors made on the written paper would not have gone well to put it mildly. True, there are plenty of anecdotal tales of CAA Surveyors and their own "pet areas "......I had the misfortune to meet one who was obsessed with aerodynamics for example, but, with hindsight, he was genuinely interested to learn from his questions how much I really knew.
With all due respect Albert, I feel some of those who made this boast may have been just a shade prone to exaggeration shall we say.
Did mine many years ago under the BCAR regs and I can assure you, that, trying to blag your way through a decidedly detailed interview with questions selected at random, plus more in depth questions about any errors made on the written paper would not have gone well to put it mildly. True, there are plenty of anecdotal tales of CAA Surveyors and their own "pet areas "......I had the misfortune to meet one who was obsessed with aerodynamics for example, but, with hindsight, he was genuinely interested to learn from his questions how much I really knew.
" I have heard old skool BCARs tell me they blagged ****e. And got away with it. Time will tell what happens and we will find out were we are with out people's bull**** and views of the past will be the same as the furture. "
With all due respect Albert, I feel some of those who made this boast may have been just a shade prone to exaggeration shall we say.
Did mine many years ago under the BCAR regs and I can assure you, that, trying to blag your way through a decidedly detailed interview with questions selected at random, plus more in depth questions about any errors made on the written paper would not have gone well to put it mildly. True, there are plenty of anecdotal tales of CAA Surveyors and their own "pet areas "......I had the misfortune to meet one who was obsessed with aerodynamics for example, but, with hindsight, he was genuinely interested to learn from his questions how much I really knew.
With all due respect Albert, I feel some of those who made this boast may have been just a shade prone to exaggeration shall we say.
Did mine many years ago under the BCAR regs and I can assure you, that, trying to blag your way through a decidedly detailed interview with questions selected at random, plus more in depth questions about any errors made on the written paper would not have gone well to put it mildly. True, there are plenty of anecdotal tales of CAA Surveyors and their own "pet areas "......I had the misfortune to meet one who was obsessed with aerodynamics for example, but, with hindsight, he was genuinely interested to learn from his questions how much I really knew.
My 1st BCAR oral exam lasted 4 hours, sitting in a bare cellar room of the long-gone Heathrow CAA office. My second interview was quite a bit shorter and my third was 20 minutes including a coffee. "Bullsh!t" was quickly dismissed - as was the person trying it on!
Yes, ONB, the FAA has its role in the world too, hence the word 'almost' appeared in the sentence
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I know that Alber doesn't have a BCAR Section L and I doubt he has spent a week going through all the BCARS studying how they work for his view of them.
My 1st BCAR oral exam lasted 4 hours, sitting in a bare cellar room of the long-gone Heathrow CAA office. My second interview was quite a bit shorter and my third was 20 minutes including a coffee. "Bullsh!t" was quickly dismissed - as was the person trying it on!
Yes, ONB, the FAA has its role in the world too, hence the word 'almost' appeared in the sentence
My 1st BCAR oral exam lasted 4 hours, sitting in a bare cellar room of the long-gone Heathrow CAA office. My second interview was quite a bit shorter and my third was 20 minutes including a coffee. "Bullsh!t" was quickly dismissed - as was the person trying it on!
Yes, ONB, the FAA has its role in the world too, hence the word 'almost' appeared in the sentence
Last edited by Alber Ratman; 9th Nov 2018 at 13:37.
Thought police antagonist
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I know that Alber doesn't have a BCAR Section L and I doubt he has spent a week going through all the BCARS studying how they work for his view of them.
My 1st BCAR oral exam lasted 4 hours, sitting in a bare cellar room of the long-gone Heathrow CAA office. My second interview was quite a bit shorter and my third was 20 minutes including a coffee. "Bullsh!t" was quickly dismissed - as was the person trying it on!
Yes, ONB, the FAA has its role in the world too, hence the word 'almost' appeared in the sentence
My 1st BCAR oral exam lasted 4 hours, sitting in a bare cellar room of the long-gone Heathrow CAA office. My second interview was quite a bit shorter and my third was 20 minutes including a coffee. "Bullsh!t" was quickly dismissed - as was the person trying it on!
Yes, ONB, the FAA has its role in the world too, hence the word 'almost' appeared in the sentence
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With hindsight, I think that was a UK wide policy, official or otherwise, regarding the initial issue of a Licence in that the Surveyor needed to establish your depth of knowledge and credibility. Thereafter, as you say, those delightful little meetings became progressively shorter.
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Transferring to another NAA works in the short term , but only for 2 years , after that who knows ?
I worked damn hard for my license and having seen how some European EASA licenses are viewed in some parts of the world , I am not about o convert it until I know ALL the consequences !
How easy will it be to get a CAA license after the 2 year period if you converted ?
What will happen on 01 Apr 2019 if any aircraft needs a CRS and the only engineer is UK licensed ?
These and many more questions will be answered at some point , not sure when though !
I worked damn hard for my license and having seen how some European EASA licenses are viewed in some parts of the world , I am not about o convert it until I know ALL the consequences !
How easy will it be to get a CAA license after the 2 year period if you converted ?
What will happen on 01 Apr 2019 if any aircraft needs a CRS and the only engineer is UK licensed ?
These and many more questions will be answered at some point , not sure when though !
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I had the unfortunate error of having my Section L oral in the afternoon, someone I knew had his in the morning and the surveyor afterwards unbeknown to me picked his brains about the types I was doing and asked me those questions in the afternoon.
I worked on the principal that they only have so long to ask you questions so went for a simple engine type, airframe type and and my A and C together, that way when he was questioning me my logic dictated he would have to work his A and C questions to my type specific ratings, which he did.
So I got my licences with type ratings on from day one, though had to study 4 subjects at once.
I worked on the principal that they only have so long to ask you questions so went for a simple engine type, airframe type and and my A and C together, that way when he was questioning me my logic dictated he would have to work his A and C questions to my type specific ratings, which he did.
So I got my licences with type ratings on from day one, though had to study 4 subjects at once.
Transferring to another NAA works in the short term , but only for 2 years , after that who knows ?
I worked damn hard for my license and having seen how some European EASA licenses are viewed in some parts of the world , I am not about o convert it until I know ALL the consequences !
How easy will it be to get a CAA license after the 2 year period if you converted ?
What will happen on 01 Apr 2019 if any aircraft needs a CRS and the only engineer is UK licensed ?
These and many more questions will be answered at some point , not sure when though !
I worked damn hard for my license and having seen how some European EASA licenses are viewed in some parts of the world , I am not about o convert it until I know ALL the consequences !
How easy will it be to get a CAA license after the 2 year period if you converted ?
What will happen on 01 Apr 2019 if any aircraft needs a CRS and the only engineer is UK licensed ?
These and many more questions will be answered at some point , not sure when though !
What fun.
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In which case there will need to be an agreement in place, or air travel will just about cease overnight, in which case I think it will be rectified if not before, definately shortly afterwards.
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It will be sorted, because as you say, both sides will suffer. But you can bet our equal standing will no longer exist in regards to the rights, certainly of British companies operating European to European routes. Bring on the hard Brexit I say. Let us see Democracy AKA Mob thinking damage the economy of this country big time. Let the lesson be learned the hard way.
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The way I read the CAA memo issued on 24thSeptember, it looks like a UK CAA Licence will be about as much use as a chocolate fireguard. Except of course if you only work on G reg aircraft. Fair enough, the vast majority of the UK certifiers will be ok. However, those handling EU reg aircraft will need an EASA Licence, not after two years but on 29th March 2019.
What fun.
What fun.
Also, during my discussions with QA about my licence, the company are having to look at their maintenance provisions in a few places around Europe where we handled by UK operators come April as their EASA Pt145 approval could be null and void. They will have to make the decisions soon due to SGHA notice period clauses (and maybe before the hard/soft exit questions have been answered) to ensure continuity of cover, which I guess will see UK companies potentially losing revenue and job loses happening at stations as contracts are moved over to EASA approval holders that are still going to be (confirmed) part of EASA come April.
Now isn't the time for the assumption that all will be OK and a resolution will be found to ensure operations continue.....the realities are happening now and plans are being made.
Last edited by Tom Sawyer; 18th Nov 2018 at 06:14.
To clarify why (I think) there won't be a cliff-edge for aviation...
1. EASA AML Cancellations: As you all say, there's too many of us GB mob all about the EU to do without, suddenly.
2. Forms 1 becoming invalid:
4. Most part 21 design orgs are in the UK for interiors, repairs, mods etc....
5. too many EASA employees are UK based persons...
I have confidence, however seemingly misplaced, that a fudge will be found...we can only wait and see.
1. EASA AML Cancellations: As you all say, there's too many of us GB mob all about the EU to do without, suddenly.
2. Forms 1 becoming invalid:
far too expensive for all airlines to suffer re-cert costs...
Airbus will suffer wing production costs
RR costs will also go up
Dowty, etc, etc.
3. Closure of airports to UK traffic: All North Atlantic routes for the EU are controlled by UK ATC..!Airbus will suffer wing production costs
RR costs will also go up
Dowty, etc, etc.
4. Most part 21 design orgs are in the UK for interiors, repairs, mods etc....
5. too many EASA employees are UK based persons...
I have confidence, however seemingly misplaced, that a fudge will be found...we can only wait and see.
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Rigga, I am with you on this one to a point but still feels like one hell of a gamble with our futures. I have suggested concerns I have with the points you have made. I welcome further thoughts on this;
1. EASA AML Cancellations: As you all say, there's too many of us GB mob all about the EU to do without, suddenly.
A.UK airlines/MRO's that only work on UK reg aircraft will not bother but organisations that maintain EU registered aircraft have plans in place to convert their engineers licences in the event of a no-deal. Some airlines have also been actively re-registering their aircraft from UK to other EU states.
2. Forms 1 becoming invalid: far too expensive for all airlines to suffer re-cert costs...
I suggest this could be resolved by a CAA/EU bilateral agreement similar to the FAA. I'm sure this could be done without any bearing on AMEL licences if necessary.
3. Closure of airports to UK traffic: All North Atlantic routes for the EU are controlled by UK ATC..!
I don't know enough about this subject but I would be rubbing my hands together if I was in their boots! What an opportunity to take business from the UK.
4. Most part 21 design orgs are in the UK for interiors, repairs, mods etc....
Can't comment because I don't know enough about this subject.
5. too many EASA employees are UK based persons...
In the event of a no-deal, operators having fleets registered in UK won't care because they can continue to use EASA licenced engineers for at least another two years with full agreement of the CAA. Worryingly, this could play into their hands by making it easier to do away with licences all together by only having company approvals, something that we have been fighting against for years.
1. EASA AML Cancellations: As you all say, there's too many of us GB mob all about the EU to do without, suddenly.
A.UK airlines/MRO's that only work on UK reg aircraft will not bother but organisations that maintain EU registered aircraft have plans in place to convert their engineers licences in the event of a no-deal. Some airlines have also been actively re-registering their aircraft from UK to other EU states.
2. Forms 1 becoming invalid: far too expensive for all airlines to suffer re-cert costs...
I suggest this could be resolved by a CAA/EU bilateral agreement similar to the FAA. I'm sure this could be done without any bearing on AMEL licences if necessary.
3. Closure of airports to UK traffic: All North Atlantic routes for the EU are controlled by UK ATC..!
I don't know enough about this subject but I would be rubbing my hands together if I was in their boots! What an opportunity to take business from the UK.
4. Most part 21 design orgs are in the UK for interiors, repairs, mods etc....
Can't comment because I don't know enough about this subject.
5. too many EASA employees are UK based persons...
In the event of a no-deal, operators having fleets registered in UK won't care because they can continue to use EASA licenced engineers for at least another two years with full agreement of the CAA. Worryingly, this could play into their hands by making it easier to do away with licences all together by only having company approvals, something that we have been fighting against for years.
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Unfortunately I do not have permission to post a URL yet - please see interesting post today from airsound about EU contingency plan for a no-deal - page 10.
Go To Rumours & News > EC Notice & Brexit
Perhaps the fudge is being manufactured as we speak!
Go To Rumours & News > EC Notice & Brexit
Perhaps the fudge is being manufactured as we speak!
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Hawkeye63;
I do not disagree. I work for a G reg only outfit. I see the damage being done by the uncertainly. Brexit is affecting their thinking massively of course. The MRO I know of has a cunning plan. OK for some. Is it a dogs dinner as Mr Lewis mentioning.. yes.
I do not disagree. I work for a G reg only outfit. I see the damage being done by the uncertainly. Brexit is affecting their thinking massively of course. The MRO I know of has a cunning plan. OK for some. Is it a dogs dinner as Mr Lewis mentioning.. yes.
I work for an international maintenance company and I'm not (too) worried... we too, have a cunning plan, Mr Blackadder.
Hawkeye - I've read Airsound's points and they sort of agree with mine. A handover of major ATC control to another centre would possibly take weeks to say the least (but just installing capable RADAR might take years to develop). We can allow aircraft to overfly our borders, but aiding them further is a moot point.
If there is a real threat of a no deal - you will see planes leaving UK like flocks of Geese.
Hawkeye - I've read Airsound's points and they sort of agree with mine. A handover of major ATC control to another centre would possibly take weeks to say the least (but just installing capable RADAR might take years to develop). We can allow aircraft to overfly our borders, but aiding them further is a moot point.
If there is a real threat of a no deal - you will see planes leaving UK like flocks of Geese.
For any UK AME who did not see it, this landed in my Inbox today, from the UK CAA...
I have to say that I trawled the microsite mentioned to find this update, including "EU Member State transfer of an EASA Part 66 AML" which I would have guessed is the relevant page, but I can't find the update. But maybe I'm just looking in the wrong place.
PS; By the way, while trawling I got diverted into the CAA's Code of Practice. It was news to me that they have one, but I can now tell you that this imaginative but fictional work will provide a good laugh to anyone who has experienced at first hand the dreadful, shocking reality of dealing on a routine basis with the SRG.
"We have updated the information on our microsite concerning licensed engineers in the event of a non-negotiated EU exit. To enable the CAA time to complete its part in the licence transfer process, the CAA advises that application forms for licence transfers to another EU Member State need to be submitted to the CAA by January 1, 2019.
SW2018/247"
SW2018/247"
PS; By the way, while trawling I got diverted into the CAA's Code of Practice. It was news to me that they have one, but I can now tell you that this imaginative but fictional work will provide a good laugh to anyone who has experienced at first hand the dreadful, shocking reality of dealing on a routine basis with the SRG.
Last edited by old,not bold; 26th Nov 2018 at 11:29.
