Pilotless Commercial Aircraft
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Canada
Age: 53
Posts: 215
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
grounded27:
I almost thought you were a CC alter-ego, but you are far too reasoned and civil. I apologize.
The attacks on his arguments are often taking the same tone as his arguments. His allusions that all accidents would stop if there were no 'pilot error' is an example.
I too agree that all complex systems (aviation is but one) are moving toward increased automation. This will continue until an incident or another paradigm shift happens.
I am normally thick-skinned, but the constant references to 911 from CC are, IMHO, offensive. Bad guys exploited the weaknesses they saw in a complex system, at many levels. Unfortunately, the uniqueness of the plan, in many respects, allowed it to succeed. Manned a/c was not the one fatal flaw. Automate the a/c and the attack would be electronic vice physical, and the attackers wouldn't even need to put themselves at personal risk.
I too am an AIRMAN, as you say. I have been making a living as a pilot since '90 and have some (I want more) experience on the floor as an apprentice AME. I imagine I too will eventually make the transition to UAV support, as it fits my general interests, but still see a role for crew in large commercial a/c for some time.
As for references to AF447, they are equally specious. One crew that made very poor decisions does not mean that an entire profession is at fault. Unfortunately, the current aviation business model does not reward people to strive to be the best. A CEO of a leading offshore helicopter provider has been quoted as saying: "we don't need a few great pilots, we need a bunch of mediocre pilots". The attitude is pervasive.
As for CC and his thread. Enough.
First off the topic is not automated maintenance but fully automated flight. This is getting foolish, the last 3 posts though targeted at CC are extremely immature.
No one has argued my factual statements to the eventual commercial UAV.
Jseward if you wish to persist in this nonsense I am sure I could double down on pilot error failures with enough google time.
Can anyone (since you pick a bone) show a modern form of automated maintenance? Thought not! Not to say it is impossible in the future HAHE EG: the Q9001 fictional device.
I view this as a VALID possible, probably inevitable future.
Please stop the foolish banter and place your input based on fact... Do not disgrace me. I am an AIRMAN. I am PRO Aviation. I miss the days of being the flight mech that looked back at the ENG panel as he set thrust to make sure all else was in working order. I am now focused on avionics and see the possibilities.
Please speak with the professional regard I have for all Airmen.
No one has argued my factual statements to the eventual commercial UAV.
Jseward if you wish to persist in this nonsense I am sure I could double down on pilot error failures with enough google time.
Can anyone (since you pick a bone) show a modern form of automated maintenance? Thought not! Not to say it is impossible in the future HAHE EG: the Q9001 fictional device.
I view this as a VALID possible, probably inevitable future.
Please stop the foolish banter and place your input based on fact... Do not disgrace me. I am an AIRMAN. I am PRO Aviation. I miss the days of being the flight mech that looked back at the ENG panel as he set thrust to make sure all else was in working order. I am now focused on avionics and see the possibilities.
Please speak with the professional regard I have for all Airmen.
The attacks on his arguments are often taking the same tone as his arguments. His allusions that all accidents would stop if there were no 'pilot error' is an example.
I too agree that all complex systems (aviation is but one) are moving toward increased automation. This will continue until an incident or another paradigm shift happens.
I am normally thick-skinned, but the constant references to 911 from CC are, IMHO, offensive. Bad guys exploited the weaknesses they saw in a complex system, at many levels. Unfortunately, the uniqueness of the plan, in many respects, allowed it to succeed. Manned a/c was not the one fatal flaw. Automate the a/c and the attack would be electronic vice physical, and the attackers wouldn't even need to put themselves at personal risk.
I too am an AIRMAN, as you say. I have been making a living as a pilot since '90 and have some (I want more) experience on the floor as an apprentice AME. I imagine I too will eventually make the transition to UAV support, as it fits my general interests, but still see a role for crew in large commercial a/c for some time.
As for references to AF447, they are equally specious. One crew that made very poor decisions does not mean that an entire profession is at fault. Unfortunately, the current aviation business model does not reward people to strive to be the best. A CEO of a leading offshore helicopter provider has been quoted as saying: "we don't need a few great pilots, we need a bunch of mediocre pilots". The attitude is pervasive.
As for CC and his thread. Enough.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: earth
Posts: 1,341
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the response P&A
I really wanted to guide this thread in a positive direction because there is a lot to say about it. I was happy when it almost died and had no interest in "feeding the trolls". Any fool who calls this thread comedy is simply not far from being a troll themselves. Anyways, thanks for the thoughtful response. It would be good to revisit this topic in another few years or when some significant technological step is taken.
Grounded
Grounded
Thought police antagonist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 1,371
Received 110 Likes
on
77 Posts
" I must say this has been the best thread on Eng. & Techs for years"
Erm, not strictly true......
We had a rather, ahem, extended " debate" as to the differences between a dust cap and a primary seal...
Then we had the fabled Senior Security pillock about whom I was never quite sure as to whether he was the complete troll, or, far more disturbingly, was actually for real.
All we need now is a debate on the pen vs tool kit as the best maintenance tool....:
Erm, not strictly true......
We had a rather, ahem, extended " debate" as to the differences between a dust cap and a primary seal...
Then we had the fabled Senior Security pillock about whom I was never quite sure as to whether he was the complete troll, or, far more disturbingly, was actually for real.
All we need now is a debate on the pen vs tool kit as the best maintenance tool....:
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Away from home Rat
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No pikey maintenance company is going to fork out for a robot.. Getting a dust cap for a wheel is hard enough!
Pen by day, toolkit for the nightshift guys to fix it when the time is right.. Price is right.. I'll get my coat..
Pen by day, toolkit for the nightshift guys to fix it when the time is right.. Price is right.. I'll get my coat..
Last edited by Alber Ratman; 7th May 2013 at 22:30.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: UK
Age: 69
Posts: 475
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the fact that so many have responded to somebody claiming to have based their thoughts on watching the jetsons as a kid highlights that automation is urgently needed. How gullible are you people?
A LAME calling theirself chock chucker says it all.
A LAME calling theirself chock chucker says it all.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Uk
Age: 59
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An interesting debate , apart from the name calling ....
The technology is available to make it safe in 90% of flights but that isn't enough for the passengers or the insurers .....
Imagine an A380 going down because a situation similar to Sullys river landing , the airline and aircraft manufacturer would have no-one to point fingers at .. They would have to pay up , instead of having a Captain to thank for saving everyone ....
I've been an LAE for over 30 years and I believe it will happen , but only when the accountants allow it . I will always be happier with a man in the cockpit , wether he's brilliant or mediocre , because he can THINK, something computers can't do YET !!!!!
The technology is available to make it safe in 90% of flights but that isn't enough for the passengers or the insurers .....
Imagine an A380 going down because a situation similar to Sullys river landing , the airline and aircraft manufacturer would have no-one to point fingers at .. They would have to pay up , instead of having a Captain to thank for saving everyone ....
I've been an LAE for over 30 years and I believe it will happen , but only when the accountants allow it . I will always be happier with a man in the cockpit , wether he's brilliant or mediocre , because he can THINK, something computers can't do YET !!!!!
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: earth
Posts: 1,341
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Imagine an A380 going down because a situation similar to Sullys river landing , the airline and aircraft manufacturer would have no-one to point fingers at ..
I can though give you dozens of examples of pilot error that resulted in death. I shal provide 2 good examples that would have not occured if they unmanned.
The largest crash in history 583 dead being a result of KLM 4805, TCAS would have prevented this. It was though the captain's fault as he took off w/o clearance.
The crew on Flying Tiger Flight 66 should have recieved a darwin award.
The largest crash in history 583 dead being a result of KLM 4805, TCAS would have prevented this. It was though the captain's fault as he took off w/o clearance.
If you're going to argue the tech case, at least learn the tech first.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: earth
Posts: 1,341
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tarq57
I stand corrected, I said that before I reasearched the accident and should have removed it, I was under the impression KLM was on approach. None the less it was human error, the Captain took off w/o clearance. This would have not been as likely to happen today let alone just about impossible in the not so distant future.
Thought police antagonist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 1,371
Received 110 Likes
on
77 Posts
Tenerife.
Just how would TCAS have prevented this tragedy?
Please remind us all again, just what do the initials TCAS stand for ?
You may want to read this article first...and then review your comment.
http://www.ou.edu/cls/online/lstd5683b/pdfs/weick.pdf
Just how would TCAS have prevented this tragedy?
Please remind us all again, just what do the initials TCAS stand for ?
You may want to read this article first...and then review your comment.
http://www.ou.edu/cls/online/lstd5683b/pdfs/weick.pdf
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Away from home Rat
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anyone that knows how TCAS works, know that all TCAS commands are advisory not control functions and require the crew to react to the TA or RA commands. Aircraft with TCAS have collided because one of the crews did exactly the opposite of what their TCAS RA call demanded, but that was due to them obeying a conflicting call by the ATC airspace controller. As reports said, if the crew had gone with the TCAS call (that they would have every right to do over the ATC one), the collision would have been virtually impossible to happen.
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: worldwide
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilotless Trial in UK Airspace May 2013
www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-22511408
By David Coates
Published on 11/05/2013 08:45
The first unmanned flight over British skies has taken place over Lancashire, it has been revealed.
Defence giant BAE Systems has said the Jetstream research aircraft flew 500 miles from its base at Warton, near Preston to Inverness in Scotland being piloted from a base on the ground.
The aircraft - dubbed ‘the flying test bed’ - is fitted with technology to allow it to fly without a pilot in the cockpit.
Lambert Dopping-Hepenstal, programme director of the £62m ASTRAEA project behind the technology, said the trials showed unmanned aircraft could be flown.
He said: “The work being done here today and hopefully continued into the next phase of the ASTRAEA programme, will likely impact all of us in the next five, ten, 20 years as unmanned aircraft and associated technology develop and become a part of everyday life.
“These latest trials help prove the technology we need to routinely operate unmanned aircraft in our airspace and also help the regulators develop the framework in which the aircraft can operate in.
“Simply put, I believe we are writing a new chapter in aviation history.”
Andrew Chapman, an unmanned flight expert at the National Air Traffic Control Services, said the test flight was evidence such forays could take place without impacting other aircraft.
He added: “There is still work to be done but it would seem that, on the basis of this flight, an unmanned air vehicle could operate in different classes of airspace.”
The ASTRAEA (Autonomous Systems Technology Related Airborne Evaluation and Assessment) programme is an industry-backed programme aimed at developing pilotless technology.
By David Coates
Published on 11/05/2013 08:45
The first unmanned flight over British skies has taken place over Lancashire, it has been revealed.
Defence giant BAE Systems has said the Jetstream research aircraft flew 500 miles from its base at Warton, near Preston to Inverness in Scotland being piloted from a base on the ground.
The aircraft - dubbed ‘the flying test bed’ - is fitted with technology to allow it to fly without a pilot in the cockpit.
Lambert Dopping-Hepenstal, programme director of the £62m ASTRAEA project behind the technology, said the trials showed unmanned aircraft could be flown.
He said: “The work being done here today and hopefully continued into the next phase of the ASTRAEA programme, will likely impact all of us in the next five, ten, 20 years as unmanned aircraft and associated technology develop and become a part of everyday life.
“These latest trials help prove the technology we need to routinely operate unmanned aircraft in our airspace and also help the regulators develop the framework in which the aircraft can operate in.
“Simply put, I believe we are writing a new chapter in aviation history.”
Andrew Chapman, an unmanned flight expert at the National Air Traffic Control Services, said the test flight was evidence such forays could take place without impacting other aircraft.
He added: “There is still work to be done but it would seem that, on the basis of this flight, an unmanned air vehicle could operate in different classes of airspace.”
The ASTRAEA (Autonomous Systems Technology Related Airborne Evaluation and Assessment) programme is an industry-backed programme aimed at developing pilotless technology.
Last edited by Bornfreee; 13th May 2013 at 19:44.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: earth
Posts: 1,341
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lockheed Martin Corporation and Kaman Aerospace Corporation have successfully transformed Kaman’s proven K-MAX® power lift helicopter into an unmanned aircraft system (UAS) capable of autonomous or remote controlled cargo delivery. Its mission: battlefield cargo resupply for the U.S. military.
The K-MAX UAS is a transformational technology for a fast-moving battlefield that will enable Marines to deliver supplies either day or night to precise locations without risk of losing life in the process. The aircraft can fly at higher altitudes with a larger payload than any other rotary wing UAS. With its four hook carousel, the K-MAX UAS can also deliver more cargo to more locations in one flight
The team has flown the K-MAX UAS more than 750 hours in autonomous mode since joining forces in 2007. The rugged system can lift and deliver a full 6,000 lbs of cargo at sea level and more than 4,000 pounds at 15,000 ft density altitude.
The K-MAX continues to exceed expectations as an unmanned platform. The aircraft has met all unmanned milestones to date and continues to excel in the commercial logging and firefighting industries. The aircraft will remain optionally piloted for ease of National Airspace Operations, occasional manned mission flexibility, ferry flights, rapid integration of new mission equipment, and allow rapid return-to-service activities.
The manned version of the K-MAX is used for repetitive lift operations by commercial operators for the construction and logging industries. To date, the fleet has accumulated more than 255,000 flight hours since 1994.
The K-MAX UAS is a transformational technology for a fast-moving battlefield that will enable Marines to deliver supplies either day or night to precise locations without risk of losing life in the process. The aircraft can fly at higher altitudes with a larger payload than any other rotary wing UAS. With its four hook carousel, the K-MAX UAS can also deliver more cargo to more locations in one flight
The team has flown the K-MAX UAS more than 750 hours in autonomous mode since joining forces in 2007. The rugged system can lift and deliver a full 6,000 lbs of cargo at sea level and more than 4,000 pounds at 15,000 ft density altitude.
The K-MAX continues to exceed expectations as an unmanned platform. The aircraft has met all unmanned milestones to date and continues to excel in the commercial logging and firefighting industries. The aircraft will remain optionally piloted for ease of National Airspace Operations, occasional manned mission flexibility, ferry flights, rapid integration of new mission equipment, and allow rapid return-to-service activities.
The manned version of the K-MAX is used for repetitive lift operations by commercial operators for the construction and logging industries. To date, the fleet has accumulated more than 255,000 flight hours since 1994.
The two K-MAX unmanned helicopters being tested in Afghanistan have accumulated 525 flight hours during 485 sorties, while handling as much as 4,500 pounds of cargo per mission.
Last edited by grounded27; 14th May 2013 at 09:50.
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: UK
Age: 43
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilotless Trial in UK Airspace May 2013
BBC News - Pilotless flight trialled in UK shared airspace
By David Coates
Published on 11/05/2013 08:45
BBC News - Pilotless flight trialled in UK shared airspace
By David Coates
Published on 11/05/2013 08:45
UAS have been dreamed of and written about for many years but it is emerging technology and in the current climate of heavy regulation for safety reasons coupled with the desire to move away from a "fly, crash, fix" methodology mean that it will be decades before they are ever certified to carry pax or freight on a routine basis.
I don't deny it will happen I'm just a little more realistic of when
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: worldwide
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rome wasn't built in a day!
"Yes agreed, I was very surprised when i read this (and other articles on it) alas there were crew in the cockpit for safety reasons who conducted take off and landing with the remainder being flown remotely".
That's why it's called Trials!
That's why it's called Trials!
Last edited by Bornfreee; 16th May 2013 at 15:03.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: In transit
Age: 70
Posts: 3,052
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unmanned Flight: The Drones Come Home - Pictures, More From National Geographic Magazine
Article in March NG about drones. I think we're a long way from pilotless commercial flights, if ever, but the article makes interesting reading.
Article in March NG about drones. I think we're a long way from pilotless commercial flights, if ever, but the article makes interesting reading.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: earth
Posts: 1,341
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wolfman
I don't deny it will happen I'm just a little more realistic of when
Military aviation have completed the most extreme UAV ops.
Civil aviation have completed UAV flights with a single pilot performing only T/O and landing during the mission.
Our current civil aircraft are designed and by many SOP's land in automation (after simple configuration) autonomously.
The rate that we are moving at is exponential towards civil UAV flight.
How can anyone make a "realistic" judgment of when?
The only thing certain in life is change.
The words GLOBAL, CORPERATE, FINANCIAL, LIABILITY etc.. Are the power words we should be thinking of on this matter when you wish to think of what is realistic.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 524
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All this thread proves is how little engineers know about airline piloting.
We had remote control planes decades ago. And you could have programmed them to fly an ILS back then with less technology than a pocket calculator. It doesn't mean there'll be pilotless passenger aircraft anytime this side of 2050. Flying normal takeoffs and normal landings are the simplest/easiest/smallest parts of the job.
50 years minimum. By then we'll probably have robotic engineers, with robot engineer engineers and so on
We had remote control planes decades ago. And you could have programmed them to fly an ILS back then with less technology than a pocket calculator. It doesn't mean there'll be pilotless passenger aircraft anytime this side of 2050. Flying normal takeoffs and normal landings are the simplest/easiest/smallest parts of the job.
50 years minimum. By then we'll probably have robotic engineers, with robot engineer engineers and so on
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 310
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An interesting thread. Personally I think we will one day see pilot-less commercial flights, but it's a long long way off. Look at the airliners being made/designed now (A350,787, Neo, Max). They will be in operation for the next 20+ years and they haven't even considered not having 2 pilots.
The next logical step would be to introduce UAVs for non-passenger roles (crop-spraying, aerial surveying etc). Then I think we might move to 1 pilot cockpit designs, where the plane all but flies itself and the pilot is purely a back-up. Then eventually we could have pilot-less airliners, but it's a long way off.
The next logical step would be to introduce UAVs for non-passenger roles (crop-spraying, aerial surveying etc). Then I think we might move to 1 pilot cockpit designs, where the plane all but flies itself and the pilot is purely a back-up. Then eventually we could have pilot-less airliners, but it's a long way off.