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Is there REALLY a shortage of LAE's?

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Is there REALLY a shortage of LAE's?

Old 18th Nov 2011, 00:06
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Is there REALLY a shortage of LAE's?

I keep hearing the rumour that there is a shortage of LAE's, and that it is a massivley ageing industry, but do you think there is any truth to it, or just the old jungle drums?

Do you think Engineers will ever be held in the same esteem that pilots are, and paid as such?

Discuss!
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 00:25
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Yes there is a shortage of LA E's who are experienced, well qualified and who can justify being paid an LAE wage.
Yes it is an aging industry, many retiring and not being replaced with like for like, experience etc wise.
Should an LAE be paid the same as a Pilot ? no - totally different skill set and whilst certifying for safe and correct maintenance, an LAE will never have the responsibility level of a Pilot.
Should an LAE have the same respect as a Pilot ? That is something both have to earn - neither receives it as a right and many in both trades/professions are simply not worthy.
Not to worry however - the "A" License will address any concerns the maintenance side of the industry may have as will the 200 hour cadet on the Piloting side.........
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 03:18
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Lack of self worth...

Should an LAE be paid the same as a Pilot ? no - totally different skill set and whilst certifying for safe and correct maintenance, an LAE will never have the responsibility level of a Pilot.
Should an LAE have the same respect as a Pilot ? That is something both have to earn - neither receives it as a right and many in both trades/professions are simply not worthy.

Pilot's have many levels of experience. I for one believe than an LAE/AMT with through systems knowledge on the same often (usually) more airframes than the equivalent pilot does holds a rite to the same pay. We often do start out at the same pay level but with 10 years experience fall short.

Our skill set becomes defined, hardened as does a pilots. We learn more and more quickly how to define and resolve a problem just as pilots do. We are challenged with new technology, just as pilots do. We are responsible for the aircraft we maintain just as pilots are that fly them responsibly.

We follow with pride the same manuals that are issued by an aircraft MFGR.

We call an aircraft airworthy, based on our skill set and experience, a pilot operates that aircraft safely based on our JUDGMENT!

Last edited by grounded27; 19th Nov 2011 at 03:03.
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 16:19
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Hi
Regarding the shortage of engineers problem: Yes I believe there is a shortage. We in the FR brigade are seeing a shortage in the winter months and once the summer schedule kicks back in there is expected to be a severe lack of engineers experienced or not.

Regarding the experience shortage: I absolutely agree. The experience pool is being severely diluted due to commercial constraints. Since the companies cannot get the better more experienced guys they are now taking anything that has the required pieces of paper just to make sure all the relevant boxes are ticked.

Regarding the responsibility of pilots and engineers: I absolutely understand that a pilot (and more specifically a captain) has a large responsibility but I would not play down the responsibilities of a certifying engineer especially when I consider that on any given night I personally will sign off up to 5 aircraft and in doing so I state that any maintenance I have carried out that night, be it routine inspection or heavy complex unscheduled work is carried out in a safe and satisfactory manner which will permit those 5 aircraft to fly about 5000 people safely through the sky for a day. That to me is no small responsibility and I would like to see engineers as a body recognized for it.
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 17:45
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There sure as hell aint a shortage in the UK, the place is awash with them which is why the hourly rate today is little more than it was in the mid nineties, i work for a recruiting company and we have never had so many engineers looking for work on our books.
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 18:07
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Originally Posted by Topspotter
There sure as hell aint a shortage in the UK, the place is awash with them which is why the hourly rate today is little more than it was in the mid nineties, i work for a recruiting company and we have never had so many engineers looking for work on our books.
Yes but how many of those engineers are actually out of work at the moment? There are 7 licenced guys at my place of employment, and 5 of those are currently actively looking elsewhere, but it's not like they are unemployed right now. It's just shifting experience - not fresh legs.
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 18:15
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Anyone who thinks certifying engineers have less responsibility than pilots or managers and directors for that matter should check out the aftermath of the Tun-inter and Helios crashes.
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 18:21
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There certainly is a shortage of capable, experienced b licenced engineers. And where I am the majority are up for retirement in 5 to 7 years.

I say competent because all too many of the people I see are not very competent. Sadly that goes in spades for B2 holders, (yes I'm a B2). With the shortage some very poor performers get a job and frankly the EASA licencing system does not help. Many of the new EASA B2 holders slavishly follow the FIM and seem incapable of independant thought. Couple this with inexperience and you do not get the level of safety I'd like to see. I don't know it all by a long chalk but I do find some of the people about now a worry.

OK politically incorrect and ' it was better in my day etc' but that's my considered view based on my everyday experiences. Anyway I should be out of it soon hopefully leaving a space for a new boy to fill.

For those of you considering it as a career, it takes effort but it's worth it. There is a drive to replace as many B licence holders with A licence holders so there will probably be fewer B positions in future. It's a worthwhile job deserving of more respect than it gets. I've had over 40 years of interest and some great fun interspersed with the odd moment of horror but I'll be glad to go. Too many idiot managers with no operational experience and who make piss poor decisions about nowadays.

Ah got that off my chest feel much better now
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 18:31
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There may be a glut of Engineers although I would be surprised if that is the case when you ask another question. That question is ' How many top notch, well qualified, experienced Engineers (Techs and Mechs) are on the market?'.
I have had just over 3500 CV from all over the world (literally)in the past year for Tech/Mech positions and have been fortunate to recruit some very good, quality people, but I have noticed that there are a large number who lack sound, solid experience in depth and/or suitable qualifications. Don't let the perceived numbers of Engineers that are on the market cloud the quality and experience issue.

Temps.
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 18:46
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One thing that sticks out to me, is that no one wants to help with your training.... I have over 12 years of large aircraft experience in the RAF a good apprenticeship & all of my B1 & B2 modules done, and recent heavy maint experience on Boeing & Airbus aircraft. I am just waiting on time now before I can apply for my licences.

But no one is interested in that, they want type rated experienced engineers NOW, not soon, but NOW! I can understand that they have a business need, but surley I must be a good bet for a company that needs to replace engineers in the future, as they get the chance to train me to their systems & build knowledge before being let loose certifying aircraft?

A colleague I recently worked with paid for his own type rating on a new licence, then a few days later was employed by an Irish airline immediatley, with no training or anything other than the basic quality checks, as he had all the right bits of paper, and the bare minimum required type experience to be granted the licence!! He even admitted he was way out of his depth, but had to muddle through as the sole B1 engineer on shift!

What I see is a reflection of the pilot situation, where no one will take responsibiliy for training, then moan that standards are dropping ...

I just hope all the efforts so far will pay off in the long term, and engineers will start getting a bit more respect for the job they do!
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 19:20
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Best thing that ever happened from our perspective is the vast number of licensed engineers being churned out by the part 147 training schools, its more like the American A and P system now , Licences are by all accounts so much easier to obtain than they were twenty years ago.
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 20:55
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As has been said many times on this forum, experience is everything in this game and to answer the original question, yes there is a shortage of well qualified and experienced LAE's .

For those starting out in the industry or making the transition from the military, expect a long but hopefully rewarding slog to attain the relevant type experience and company approvals. At the end of the day a license is nothing more than a piece of paper. Any reputable company is going to be looking very carefully at you as a person in conjunction with qualifications before allowing you to certify. The example quoted in a previous post of a newly licensed person being given an “instant” approval is a worrying example of how things can be “dumbed down” Any inexperienced LAE who is prepared to be put in this position needs to carefully remember his/her responsibilities (companies don’t give approval pay just to help you buy a flash car etc!!)

As for pay parity with pilots…..most B1/B2’s with a decent number of approvals should be earning at least what an experienced F/O earns in most UK airlines these days. Is it enough?....probably not (but unlike pilots, engineers have never managed to effectively act as group to enhance pay and conditions) This issue has never been helped by the fact that most bean-counter managers have a chip on their shoulder that most LAE’s earn more than them anyway!

Last edited by boeing_eng; 18th Nov 2011 at 22:42.
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Old 18th Nov 2011, 22:11
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boeing_eng , i agree with you and thats why , for the time being , i prefer to stay unemployed ...
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Old 19th Nov 2011, 02:57
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GWH

Many of the new EASA B2 holders slavishly follow the FIM and seem incapable of independent thought
Brother this is the largest trend I fight every day, it is almost a directive from MGT to follow the FIM despite your better knowledge. Our group is slowly folding to a "career over craft" mindset on this issue. A factory FIM assumes (the selling point to airlines) that an aircraft system will fail as they expect and are completely ignorant (especially on an older aircraft) that it can fail out of their box. Airlines sold this BS will feel the effects of the cost's of years of accumulated out of service aircraft that cost big bucks! SO frustrating but it is a hard battle for us. (see next comment)

Boeing-Eng...

As for pay parity with pilots…..most B1/B2’s with a decent number of approvals should be earning at least what an experienced F/O earns in most UK airlines these days. Is it enough?....probably not (but unlike pilots, engineers have never managed to effectively act as group to enhance pay and conditions) This issue has never been helped by the fact that most bean-counter managers have a chip on their shoulder that most LAE’s earn more than them anyway!
The bottom line is a cultural one. Aircraft maintenance is viewed as a LIABILITY, most proactive measures taken to reduce this are daft expecting after a MGT/bean counter review of some function is taken to improve reliability. Reliability in aircraft maintenance, on the ramp exists as a REACTIVE measure! Training and experience keeps the revenue flights flowing.


K-C130

What I see is a reflection of the pilot situation, where no one will take responsibly for training, then moan that standards are dropping
Our Pilots are becoming drones as they more than any of us are encouraged to follow policy and procedure with less latitude for decision based on human logic. Once again the MFGR sells airlines an aircraft where neither Pilots or the AMT/LAME should need to think for himself.
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Old 21st Nov 2011, 13:55
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Pilots and engineers are very different professions.
They are both equally indispensable members of the aviation community.
I don't know enough about the engineers or pilots shortages, so no commenst in that area.
As for the pay parity, I beleive it will always be that pilots, in particular captains get paid substantially more than engineers.
The main reasons are, the pilot is required to undergo medical check up and at a doctors's stroke, his/her carrier is in jeopardy. Annually or bi-annually the pilot has to pass an evaluation that could jeopardize the carrier if not passed succesfully. A multitude of other checks, such as line check, Dangerous goods, First aid, MNPS,etc.... have to be passed.
By nature of the job, pilots tend to spend more time away from home, while engineers even the ones working shifts tend to be more at home.
Engineers on the other hand do not have to go through such stringent evaluations after the initial qualifications, unless aquiring a new rating.
The idea that pilots have stronger unions, I am not convinced.
All airforces around the world and airlines from certain parts of the world where unions are not allowed, have similar parities betwen pilots and engineers.
It does not mean one is better than the other, it is just like a banana and an orange are both tasty and good for your health, but they are different.

Last edited by tournesol; 21st Nov 2011 at 14:37.
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Old 21st Nov 2011, 16:06
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Sorry Tournesol , i do not agree with you :
1/ the pilot is required to undergo medical check up : in France , thats the same and at the employer's discretion ... French Labour Law !
2/ pilots tend to spend more time away from home : did you hear already about Contractors and Relief Engineers ...?
Pilots are paid more because of the responsability of their job , problem is that , nowadays , when they are taking alone a decision , most of the time , they are f...ing up the stuff ...
Is it not a big responsability to sign off the release of an aircraft and this alone , whatever the temperature and climate could be , and i am not talking about some other human factors ?
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Old 21st Nov 2011, 17:09
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Priceless, MATMAX. Absolutely priceless.

No wonder you are unemployed.
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Old 21st Nov 2011, 17:48
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The idea that pilots have stronger unions, I am not convinced.
The main reasons are, the pilot is required to undergo medical check up and at a doctors's stroke, his/her carrier is in jeopardy. Annually or bi-annually the pilot has to pass an evaluation that could jeopardize the carrier if not passed succesfully. A multitude of other checks, such as line check, Dangerous goods, First aid, MNPS,etc.... have to be passed.
I respectfully disagree.. Really, "hello my name is Captain Jones, I get paid 300k a year because I am forced to eat healthy and get some excercise".

I undergo countless hours of recurrent training and testing (DG is one of them) on 7 types of aircraft!!!

The largest mistake US A&P made was not to jump on the ALPA bandwagon when it was offered to technicians in it's early stages.

By nature of the job, pilots tend to spend more time away from home, while engineers even the ones working shifts tend to be more at home.
I know I do not represent the masses but 4-5 years of my career were spent living on an aircraft, had no problem with the being away from home part, hell I loved the odd chance to stay in a fine hotel in an exotic land. The problem was when the pilots went to the hotel after an 8 hour flight I still had several 8 hour legs to go before I saw a real bed.

A pilot with experience can usually pick and choose what he wants, some love inter continental flight, it is easy for a senior guy to usually give up a few dollars and fly a few short legs a day, be home for dinner and get plenty of time off.

Last edited by grounded27; 21st Nov 2011 at 18:06.
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Old 21st Nov 2011, 17:59
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Back on topic, working on a 20 year career as an AMT I have been hearing that there is or will be a shortage of AMT's in the USA since I heard it first from my A&P school recruiter. Fact is I have never seen a shortage, quite the opposite, just layoff's.
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Old 21st Nov 2011, 19:19
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Mat Max,
I feel sad that you are offended by my opinion. What God given right do you have to disrespect other ppl opinions? The use of the f*** only shows your imaturity.
If you feel pilots have it easy, why don't you or didn't you become one? You know the answer to that. Some good LMEs have gone that way and have become very succesfull. But only the brave and confident ones made it.

I feel I have threaded on a very raw nerves with some LMEs, Technicians or Aircraft Mechanics. You are who you are because you chose to be one. You should be proud of what you do because your job is important in the aviation industry. Without you the airplanes will never become airborne.

The chips you are carying on your shoulders are only slowing you down. Grow up and smell the coffee. No where in the world an engineer/mechanic is going to be compared to a captain, no matter what the circusmstances are.
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