Opening turbine oil cans properly?
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Hi Blackhand, thanks for the warning. AeroShell 500 is the manufacturers recommended oil for the GTD-350, so it should be entirely suitable with any luck.
For the Williams WR27-1 the Navy only specified that the oil must meet MIL-PRF-23699 which both AeroShell 500 and BPTO 2380 do, so again hopefully everything should be ok.
It would be nice if I knew what the actual oil the Navy used in the WR27-1 was and could get hold of that I agree. All I know is that the original oil smelt like a farmyard and gave me a cracking headache.
For the Williams WR27-1 the Navy only specified that the oil must meet MIL-PRF-23699 which both AeroShell 500 and BPTO 2380 do, so again hopefully everything should be ok.
It would be nice if I knew what the actual oil the Navy used in the WR27-1 was and could get hold of that I agree. All I know is that the original oil smelt like a farmyard and gave me a cracking headache.
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Jon, to echo and hopefully clarify Blackhand's good warning, the issue isn't whether this oil or that is the right spec, but I've had first-hand experience of changing from one oil to another (both the right/same specification) during a period of service, and it's a very real possibility that the second oil may dislodge carbon which was deposited with the first oil. This subsequently blocks small oilways and bang goes the donk 
If you're paying for your own repairs, I'd strongly recommend staying with the oil the engine is running on, and if you're determined to change brands OR specs (even within what's approved for the engine), ONLY put the different oil in immediately after strip/rebuild has guaranteed all the old residues have been cleaned out - not usually possible to be certain of this until full overhaul strip.
You might be lucky and get away with it, but I wouldn't risk my own hard-earned....
If you're paying for your own repairs, I'd strongly recommend staying with the oil the engine is running on, and if you're determined to change brands OR specs (even within what's approved for the engine), ONLY put the different oil in immediately after strip/rebuild has guaranteed all the old residues have been cleaned out - not usually possible to be certain of this until full overhaul strip.
You might be lucky and get away with it, but I wouldn't risk my own hard-earned....
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Ah, I see what you guys mean. So should I have really used the older AeroShell 500 in the Williams to begin with then? Or is it not so much that the newer formulations have more of a detergent action just that they are slightly different and any difference at all can cause problems?
Edit: To clarify what I mean, when I buy an engine they are usualy in need of a lot of TLC and all have the oil systems drained. So would it be best (if the manual doesn't make a clear recommendation so you can be fairly sure what had been used) to find the oldest generation oil that meets the specification in the manual, or instead find the newest. Or are you simply inviting problems whatever you choose
I'll guess I'll stick with the BPTO 2380 in the Williams as that's what it's been using since I got it, hopefully as it seems to be performing well there was no damage to the oil system. It will be interesting to see if it foams still after properly shaking the cans.
I'm a little bit worried about the GTD-350 now, I got the engine fully drained of oil with no paperwork so have no idea what was in it. The manual clearly states that AeroShell 500 is the manufacturers recomended oil so hopefully that's what they were using.
Edit: To clarify what I mean, when I buy an engine they are usualy in need of a lot of TLC and all have the oil systems drained. So would it be best (if the manual doesn't make a clear recommendation so you can be fairly sure what had been used) to find the oldest generation oil that meets the specification in the manual, or instead find the newest. Or are you simply inviting problems whatever you choose
I'll guess I'll stick with the BPTO 2380 in the Williams as that's what it's been using since I got it, hopefully as it seems to be performing well there was no damage to the oil system. It will be interesting to see if it foams still after properly shaking the cans.
I'm a little bit worried about the GTD-350 now, I got the engine fully drained of oil with no paperwork so have no idea what was in it. The manual clearly states that AeroShell 500 is the manufacturers recomended oil so hopefully that's what they were using.
Last edited by Jon Starr; 11th Mar 2010 at 22:38.
I'd suggest that if the oil was supposed to be shaken before pouring, it would say so on the side of the tin. Let's see some hard evidence about this, not unsubstantiated passed-on advice.
Puts me in mind of the adage about not turning a piston engine over backwards by hand because it will destroy the vacuum pump vanes. Absolute nonsense - I've got it in writing from Parker Hannefin, who make the things...
Puts me in mind of the adage about not turning a piston engine over backwards by hand because it will destroy the vacuum pump vanes. Absolute nonsense - I've got it in writing from Parker Hannefin, who make the things...
Right. I am now thoroughly depressed. I, and every line mech/tech/eng I have ever met always opens a can with a GS or Leatherman type tool. Never seen anyone give it a good shake either, or witnessed 'frothing' in the sight glass, whether it be RR, GE, PW, IAE or CFM. (Not saying it doesn't happen).
For nearly 30 years I have been doing it wrong!
Apparently.
If anyone has documented reference material that can be used to back up some of the above statements I promise to change my 'practice'. In the meantime I won't be applying for a job on helicopters run by one of ex-Bristows finest.
For nearly 30 years I have been doing it wrong!
Apparently.
If anyone has documented reference material that can be used to back up some of the above statements I promise to change my 'practice'. In the meantime I won't be applying for a job on helicopters run by one of ex-Bristows finest.
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TURIN, I have just rung Shell lubricants tech line (to see if they had a piece of paper on the matter) and the word from them is that as long as the oil has been stored at the correct temperature and is in-date that the additives should not separate. They did say that shaking or rotating the can before use is perfectly fine and will have no detrimental effect on the oil, so anyone that wants to can do so 
For my part as I have seen frothing I'll give it a good shake this time just to eliminate any possibility of that being the cause.
She doesn't think that they have any guidance at all on how to open the metal cans, and had never been asked that question before. Guess it may be a liability thing if they give any advice.
For my part as I have seen frothing I'll give it a good shake this time just to eliminate any possibility of that being the cause.
She doesn't think that they have any guidance at all on how to open the metal cans, and had never been asked that question before. Guess it may be a liability thing if they give any advice.
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Originally Posted by punk666
When I was filling up the IDG oil on a CFM56, I was told to pierce three holes next to each other then one hole on the opposite side.
I was told this was to help the oil flow out of the can
I was told this was to help the oil flow out of the can
Good gen on the shaking/piercing background, I agree it shouldn't be necessary to skake modern oils after proper storage, though as the man says it won't do any harm either. And the point about flakes of chrome plate from screwdrivers rings true also. Again, I just couldn't see flakes coming from the cans themselves.
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What is all this nonsense about opening oil cans correctly? Why waste your money on some fancy new tool when you can simply gather up and use the already opened half empty cans that have been left in the racks of the line vans. Failing that, you could go to the zipper and grab a couple of used tins that have been rolling around in the back. A bit of water sloshing around in them won't do no harm, it's all liquid at the end of the day.
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Changing the way Turin does stuff
If anyone has documented reference material that can be used to back up some of the above statements I promise to change my 'practice'
If the oil pressure fluctuates and oil foams,
drain the engine oil system (Paragraph 12-
15) and replace the oil with new oil.
If you use oil stored in small containers,
shake the container to mix the additives
before you pour the oil in the engine oil
tank.
drain the engine oil system (Paragraph 12-
15) and replace the oil with new oil.
If you use oil stored in small containers,
shake the container to mix the additives
before you pour the oil in the engine oil
tank.
SteveF - using an ad hominem in this argument is adds nothing.
Cheers
BH
Thanks for that blackhand. I'll have a look and see if the manuals I use concur.
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ad hominem
SteveF for your edification -
To wit - your linking of rotating a piston engine against the DOR and effect on airpump carbon rotors. to the current discussion on oil cans.
Cheers
BH
ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument toward the person" or "argument against the person"), is an argument which links the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise.
Cheers
BH
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Just to get back on the topic of opening the cans, I have 10 CanKeys in the post at the momment.
As I only need one one for myself and couple for friends there are quite a few spare.
If anyone would like one gratis then please PM me with your address and I'll stick one in the post. Or if you live near Brize Norton camp then feel free to come grab one and I can bore you with my engine collection
As I only need one one for myself and couple for friends there are quite a few spare.
If anyone would like one gratis then please PM me with your address and I'll stick one in the post. Or if you live near Brize Norton camp then feel free to come grab one and I can bore you with my engine collection
Thanks, Blackhand, I'm quite aware of the meaning of ad hominem - it was a feeble attempt at humour regarding web advertisement policy.
I stick by my earlier comment that if it was necessary to agitate the can's content, it would be endorsed on the container. Of interest, I searched the web regarding the subject and no turbine oil supplier stated that it was necessary to do so prior to replenishment.
I rather think that they're the experts on constituents in suspension.
I've no problem with being proved wrong but it's equally important to question dubious theories, hence my comment regarding vacuum pumps. So, where's the evidence from lubrication manufacturers?
I stick by my earlier comment that if it was necessary to agitate the can's content, it would be endorsed on the container. Of interest, I searched the web regarding the subject and no turbine oil supplier stated that it was necessary to do so prior to replenishment.
I rather think that they're the experts on constituents in suspension.
I've no problem with being proved wrong but it's equally important to question dubious theories, hence my comment regarding vacuum pumps. So, where's the evidence from lubrication manufacturers?
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I remember the incident as did Blackhand, We stopped using chromed screwdrivers (RAAF) Also the oil spouts were banned as they were chrome plated and it sometimes chipped off.
Thes days, I recall the tendency is to use a 1/4 " sharpened Stainless spike fitted with a nurled 2" Brass handle. Two quick pops and you are done. The Marlin spike on a good knife works well too.
Thes days, I recall the tendency is to use a 1/4 " sharpened Stainless spike fitted with a nurled 2" Brass handle. Two quick pops and you are done. The Marlin spike on a good knife works well too.
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Back in the early 60`s at the company that I worked for we opened one litre oil cans with a combination piercer and pourer. Told to stop using them as plating on the opener was getting into the oil. So we then opened them with any handy screwdriver without any adverse problems.
So we then later had about a twenty gallon oil dolly that we pulled about to use, this was refilled as needed from fourty four gallon oil drums.
One of us asked why did the pipe on the pump on the oil drum was short of the bottom of by some five gallons or so. Why not lower it so as to get all of the oil out out of the drum.
I forget what the answer was, there was some reason, the pipe was not ever lowered. But re shaking a one litre can before using, seems strange you have to shake a one litre, but we never shaked the twenty gallon oil dolly or the fourty four gallon oil drum.
A canditate for Snopes ??? Urban legend ???
So we then later had about a twenty gallon oil dolly that we pulled about to use, this was refilled as needed from fourty four gallon oil drums.
One of us asked why did the pipe on the pump on the oil drum was short of the bottom of by some five gallons or so. Why not lower it so as to get all of the oil out out of the drum.
I forget what the answer was, there was some reason, the pipe was not ever lowered. But re shaking a one litre can before using, seems strange you have to shake a one litre, but we never shaked the twenty gallon oil dolly or the fourty four gallon oil drum.
A canditate for Snopes ??? Urban legend ???
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Top up the oil...
I have read with great interest a long thread on how to open an oil can
Almost as long as a previous report on pilots pay...
40+ years was I doing it correctly??
Did I inadvertantly seize an engine ah will never know!!
Should I change my habits, too late probably
but always learning so please teach this old dog a new trick.
Why have I always used an IDG oil gun?
Simply clamping the oil can and with one central push of a striker pierced the can.
If any metal was detached from the can it would be stopped by the inbuilt filter element contained in the IDG gun.
Still wondering about pouring the oil into the IDG... how much ended on the ground me thinks...
To late for TW
Almost as long as a previous report on pilots pay...
40+ years was I doing it correctly??
Did I inadvertantly seize an engine ah will never know!!
Should I change my habits, too late probably
but always learning so please teach this old dog a new trick.
When I was filling up the IDG oil on a CFM56, I was told to pierce three holes next to each other then one hole on the opposite side.
I was told this was to help the oil flow out of the can
I was told this was to help the oil flow out of the can
Simply clamping the oil can and with one central push of a striker pierced the can.
If any metal was detached from the can it would be stopped by the inbuilt filter element contained in the IDG gun.
Still wondering about pouring the oil into the IDG... how much ended on the ground me thinks...
To late for TW
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opening oil cans
company I worked for 'penny wise pound foolish one' supplied hydraulic oil can opener which was painted yellow, and the yellow paint used to flake off nicely from opener and go into the oil
about chrome plating coming off and going into to oil, I used to get the chrome plating flaking off spanners and imbedding into my hand I think the nice black industrial spanners are better but do not shine as well.
about chrome plating coming off and going into to oil, I used to get the chrome plating flaking off spanners and imbedding into my hand I think the nice black industrial spanners are better but do not shine as well.
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I must admit to being slightly relieved at the way this thread has developed, for the last 30+ years I have never consciously shaken an oil can & have used a variety of methods to open the cans. I mainly used a screw driver until progressing to the can opener tool on a leatherman in recent years.
I have NEVER seen an idg or csd gravity filled though!
I have NEVER seen an idg or csd gravity filled though!