Opening turbine oil cans properly?
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Opening turbine oil cans properly?
Hi everyone, hope no-one minds a quick (sort-of aviation related) question.
I've got a number of gas turbines I run as a hobby (M701C-500, WR27-1 and GTD-350), and I'm not sure if I'm opening the metal 1 quart oil cans the correct way.
I've just been popping a very sharp flat-head screwdriver through the lids so far, but yesterday somebody pointed out "won't you get flakes of metal in the oil?"...hmmm, didn't think of that!
So, what's the normal method that's used? Should I move to using a can-opener or might that make even more chance of generating swarf?
I've got a number of gas turbines I run as a hobby (M701C-500, WR27-1 and GTD-350), and I'm not sure if I'm opening the metal 1 quart oil cans the correct way.
I've just been popping a very sharp flat-head screwdriver through the lids so far, but yesterday somebody pointed out "won't you get flakes of metal in the oil?"...hmmm, didn't think of that!
So, what's the normal method that's used? Should I move to using a can-opener or might that make even more chance of generating swarf?
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I punched the tops of millions of cans of Mobil Jet 2 for Pratt and Whitneys finest products using a regular can opener or a Nr 3 flat blade screwdriver. Don't forget your engine is generating microscopic bits of metal as it wears, which is why they have oil filters.
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Hold the edge of your GS (Screw driver) with your left hand onto the lid of the can right by the edge of the lid. Then administer a sharp blow to the top of the GS with your right hand. Works every time, been doing it that way for thirty years. The person who showed me the way had been doing it that way for years previously. Never had a problem with metal flakes.
I don't think that any metal particals that you might introduce into the oil will be anything to worry about. The filters will catch them anyway.
Some of the guys I work with hold the can with the left hand and then stab the can lid with the screw driver
Rgds Dr I
I don't think that any metal particals that you might introduce into the oil will be anything to worry about. The filters will catch them anyway.
Some of the guys I work with hold the can with the left hand and then stab the can lid with the screw driver
Rgds Dr I
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Thanks a lot for the tips. Thanks for the link as well spannersatcx, I did use the search but didn't get any results for some reason.
Glad I'm not doing something that will contaminate the oil as it's damn expensive to fill the two big engines up.
Glad I'm not doing something that will contaminate the oil as it's damn expensive to fill the two big engines up.
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Opening Turbine Oil Cans Properly?
Jon, There's more to opening a can of oil than is mentioned here. First and foremost, you must remember that modern aviation oils, both mineral and synthetic, have a number of additives in them that settle to the bottom during storage (just like a can of paint). Therefore, before attempting to open the can it's very important to turn it upside-down and shake it a few times to properly mix these additives. Then wipe the bottom of the can to ensure it's clean and take your opener and open the bottom end. Pour into the oil tank and the outgoing flow from the can will carry any remaining additives with the oil.
Metal slivers from improperly opened oil cans are regularly found in oil systems during strip-down and have some have been known to be the 'cause-for-removal'.
So what is the best way to open a can? Everyone has their own method but the best is to get hold of an old beer can opener, the lever type with a triangular head having a very sharp point. One of these was included in every case of canned beer before the advent of rip-tops and, with the beer logo on them, were collectors items. I still have a couple of 'Tiger' openers in my tool box. These are very effective, after all who wants metal slivers in their beer?
Whatever method you use, please ensure that the initial puncture is made with a single sharp point to minimise the possibility of slivers. An interesting hobby you have there!
Metal slivers from improperly opened oil cans are regularly found in oil systems during strip-down and have some have been known to be the 'cause-for-removal'.
So what is the best way to open a can? Everyone has their own method but the best is to get hold of an old beer can opener, the lever type with a triangular head having a very sharp point. One of these was included in every case of canned beer before the advent of rip-tops and, with the beer logo on them, were collectors items. I still have a couple of 'Tiger' openers in my tool box. These are very effective, after all who wants metal slivers in their beer?
Whatever method you use, please ensure that the initial puncture is made with a single sharp point to minimise the possibility of slivers. An interesting hobby you have there!
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St Jack thanks for an interesting contribution but I wonder if you aren't being a touch over cautious here. Firstly I have some doubts that modern oils need to be shaken to mix up the additives. The whole point of additives is they are in solution in the oil not a sludge at the bottom surely? Can you substantiate your view?
I'm also surprised at the assertion that engine failure have been traced to oil can debris. Debris perhaps, but specific to oil cans? Really? Oil cans are made from rolled sheet which is in a heat treated state to be soft rather than brittle. The action of piercing it tears the metal rather than splintering it, and provided it is done with a single action there should be nothing to generate swarf.
Your suggestion for using a purpose designed can opener is a good one, we can certainly agree on that. And something that avoids the situation of not being able to open a beer bottle/can if normal methods fail as well!
I'm also surprised at the assertion that engine failure have been traced to oil can debris. Debris perhaps, but specific to oil cans? Really? Oil cans are made from rolled sheet which is in a heat treated state to be soft rather than brittle. The action of piercing it tears the metal rather than splintering it, and provided it is done with a single action there should be nothing to generate swarf.
Your suggestion for using a purpose designed can opener is a good one, we can certainly agree on that. And something that avoids the situation of not being able to open a beer bottle/can if normal methods fail as well!
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Opening Turbine Oil Cans Properly?
'oil additive' - Probably not, but it does seem that we attended the same school.
'dodo56' - My practice of shaking a can of oil before opening it goes back some 40 years to the time I got a smack on the back of the head from my first Chief Engineer (in commercial aviation) for not doing so when doing an oil change. He explained the bit about additives settling in the bottom of the can and it made perfect sense to me. I've been doing and teaching it ever since. Perhaps back then the oil we were using did require this procedure and perhaps modern oils don't - but old habits die hard don't they.
Actually, I have seen it written somewhere (shaking the can) but can't quite put my finger on it at the moment. If I come across it I'll come back to this thread. Can anyone help with this?
"...I'm also surprised at the assertion that engine failure have been traced to oil can debris". Please read my second paragragh again - carefully. The remark (not really an 'assertion') referred to oil systems - not engines. When I wrote this I had helicopter drive-trains in mind, apologies for the confusion. I am aware of a number of occasions where a helicopter transmission, gearbox etc. has been rejected for metal contamination traced to oil can material - you're going to have to believe me on this one. Neverthelees, I suppose this has occurred with an engine sometime, somewhere.
This 'metal can' material contamination is substantiated by my memory of a Technical Memo issued by Bristow Helicopters many, many years ago highlighting that 'metal can' debris had been found in oil systems and cautioning engineers about improper can opening. It was this same Technical Memo that recommended the use of beer can opener. For those not sure what a 'beer can opener' is, they're the second and third items from the left in Dodo56's picture.
'Dr Illitout' - "....I don't think that any metal particals that you might introduce into the oil will be anything to worry about. The filters will catch them anyway." No comment, but please don't ever come to me asking for a job.
'BigJoeRice' - ".... which is why they have oil filters". Ditto.
'dodo56' - My practice of shaking a can of oil before opening it goes back some 40 years to the time I got a smack on the back of the head from my first Chief Engineer (in commercial aviation) for not doing so when doing an oil change. He explained the bit about additives settling in the bottom of the can and it made perfect sense to me. I've been doing and teaching it ever since. Perhaps back then the oil we were using did require this procedure and perhaps modern oils don't - but old habits die hard don't they.
Actually, I have seen it written somewhere (shaking the can) but can't quite put my finger on it at the moment. If I come across it I'll come back to this thread. Can anyone help with this?
"...I'm also surprised at the assertion that engine failure have been traced to oil can debris". Please read my second paragragh again - carefully. The remark (not really an 'assertion') referred to oil systems - not engines. When I wrote this I had helicopter drive-trains in mind, apologies for the confusion. I am aware of a number of occasions where a helicopter transmission, gearbox etc. has been rejected for metal contamination traced to oil can material - you're going to have to believe me on this one. Neverthelees, I suppose this has occurred with an engine sometime, somewhere.
This 'metal can' material contamination is substantiated by my memory of a Technical Memo issued by Bristow Helicopters many, many years ago highlighting that 'metal can' debris had been found in oil systems and cautioning engineers about improper can opening. It was this same Technical Memo that recommended the use of beer can opener. For those not sure what a 'beer can opener' is, they're the second and third items from the left in Dodo56's picture.
'Dr Illitout' - "....I don't think that any metal particals that you might introduce into the oil will be anything to worry about. The filters will catch them anyway." No comment, but please don't ever come to me asking for a job.
'BigJoeRice' - ".... which is why they have oil filters". Ditto.
The comments on engine rejection are in my view fairly accurate. If I find a lump of metal on a chip plug or in an engine filter which is beyond the laid down limits in size I cannot assume it comes from an oil can!!!!
Today there would be 2 options. Getting the metal analysed resulting in loss of use for a few days, expensive, or rejecting the engine even more expensive.
Some engines e.g the Allison 250 have the oil pump before the filter so the metal will have possibly damaged the pump and been distorted so to be no longer recognisable as a can sliver.
Engine failure probably would not result from a can sliver, but the costs of a maintenance rejection could be nearly as high.
A number of years ago an American company supplied a can sized cap which had an opener built in. It opened the can, sealed it and had a strainer built into the spout. The spout had a cap to keep dirt out once the can was opened. I wish I could get a few of these.
Today there would be 2 options. Getting the metal analysed resulting in loss of use for a few days, expensive, or rejecting the engine even more expensive.
Some engines e.g the Allison 250 have the oil pump before the filter so the metal will have possibly damaged the pump and been distorted so to be no longer recognisable as a can sliver.
Engine failure probably would not result from a can sliver, but the costs of a maintenance rejection could be nearly as high.
A number of years ago an American company supplied a can sized cap which had an opener built in. It opened the can, sealed it and had a strainer built into the spout. The spout had a cap to keep dirt out once the can was opened. I wish I could get a few of these.
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Ahh HogWash!! Any way you can, I say. I have known guys to cut and drill a conventional can opener to fit on a keychain. Known a guy who had a self piercing spout which was probably the offical way as it was provided by the oil manufacturer. I myself have allways been partial to the quick violent puncture of a leatherman stabbing 2 holes, one to pour and one to vent into the can.
This nonsence about one method over another better in preventing metal flakes is just that, nonsence. There is no way to prevent it from happening and if it was a big deal there would be a mandated procedure out there that would be well known world-wide. The best way to prevent engine contamination is to keep your cans covered at all times. I believe we enter far more contamination pouring out of a can that has a layer of dirt on top that has been sitting exposed to the elements for weeks on hand...
Maybe we need oil cans to evolve in the manner that beer cans did, hey we get all worked up about the oil can in the engine, what about eating a can of veggies. I would be more concerned about eating metal slivers than pouring them into a engine.
This nonsence about one method over another better in preventing metal flakes is just that, nonsence. There is no way to prevent it from happening and if it was a big deal there would be a mandated procedure out there that would be well known world-wide. The best way to prevent engine contamination is to keep your cans covered at all times. I believe we enter far more contamination pouring out of a can that has a layer of dirt on top that has been sitting exposed to the elements for weeks on hand...
Maybe we need oil cans to evolve in the manner that beer cans did, hey we get all worked up about the oil can in the engine, what about eating a can of veggies. I would be more concerned about eating metal slivers than pouring them into a engine.
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oil cans
all good info here and i have used all of these methods in the last 40 years....but i do remember P&W putting out a line maint news letter[in the days of hard copy info]telling all about the dangers of using screw drivers to open oil cans,as they cause slivers of metal,P&W advised all to use sharp pointed can openers or the self opening spouts that mobil used to give away with cartons of oil...most guys will remember the spout pourers used to wear after about opening a dozen cans and oil would pour out the sides and we would try to repair them,and the rubber seal would swell and not seal.....aahhhh them were the days MJ2 all over the place
And don't forget that the anti-wear additive in turbine oil is often Tricesyl Phosphate, an organophosphate whch is very very toxic. Don't open the can with your teeth!
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Chrome flakes
Metal slivers from improperly opened oil cans are regularly found in oil systems during strip-down and have some have been known to be the 'cause-for-removal'.
Synthetic oils are agitated prior to using to ensure the anti foaming agent is mixed.
Not having enough agent causes the oil to "froth", especially in gearboxes and transmissions, with the resultant fluctuations in oil pressure.
I find it intriguing that an argument is taking place because some believe that St Jack is doing "too much" - for f sake it takes less than a second to invert the can and shake it.
Cheers
BH
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Well said Blackhand
I've witnessed an oil change on a PT6 where the apprentice wasn't briefed in time about shaking the tins before pouring the oil in... result was when you looked through the contents sight glass after engine shutdown it was extremely frothy (resembling a milk shake).
I learned about shaking oil tins 25 years ago from an old air-force sumpy with lots of years of experience and like blackhand said, it takes less than a second to invert a can and shake it.
Oh, unlike Tricesyl Phosphate this Oil Additive is not very very toxic... I'm quite lovable really
I learned about shaking oil tins 25 years ago from an old air-force sumpy with lots of years of experience and like blackhand said, it takes less than a second to invert a can and shake it.
Oh, unlike Tricesyl Phosphate this Oil Additive is not very very toxic... I'm quite lovable really
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Wow, thank you everyone for all the great info.
I've sent TheCanKey people a request for a place to buy it in the UK, failing that I'll just buy 10 off them directly and hand them out to friends.
I'm very interested in what's being said about shaking the can to ensure the anti-foam agent is dispersed. I have had foaming issues in my WR27-1 (as oil additive said it looked like milkshake behind the sight glass after shutdown) and put it down to the modern BP 2380 I was using being not quite right for the engine. I have just bought a load of AeroShell 500 for it and the GTD-350 so will make damn sure to shake the hell out of the cans this time in case that was the real problem.
I've sent TheCanKey people a request for a place to buy it in the UK, failing that I'll just buy 10 off them directly and hand them out to friends.
I'm very interested in what's being said about shaking the can to ensure the anti-foam agent is dispersed. I have had foaming issues in my WR27-1 (as oil additive said it looked like milkshake behind the sight glass after shutdown) and put it down to the modern BP 2380 I was using being not quite right for the engine. I have just bought a load of AeroShell 500 for it and the GTD-350 so will make damn sure to shake the hell out of the cans this time in case that was the real problem.
ASFKAP......The tool in your picture may have been modified in the last year or so, but we found them useless!
Any trace of oil on the tool caused it to slip and the piercing edge quickly became blunt!
Any trace of oil on the tool caused it to slip and the piercing edge quickly became blunt!
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When I was filling up the IDG oil on a CFM56, I was told to pierce three holes next to each other then one hole on the opposite side.
I was told this was to help the oil flow out of the can
I was told this was to help the oil flow out of the can
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Mixing turbine oil
Jon
Changing oil from BP2380 to Aeroshell 500
Refer to the applicable engine maintenance manual for procedure for changing engine oil type.
May cause issues with oil seals, and can dislodge carbon already formed thus blocking oil nozzles.
Not recommended for high time engines.
Cheers
BH
Changing oil from BP2380 to Aeroshell 500
Refer to the applicable engine maintenance manual for procedure for changing engine oil type.
May cause issues with oil seals, and can dislodge carbon already formed thus blocking oil nozzles.
Not recommended for high time engines.
Cheers
BH
