B777-200(PW4090 ENG) Ignition Problem
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B777-200(PW4090 ENG) Ignition Problem
Dear all.
I have sufferred from following faults.
Status MSG: ENG IGN L1,2(R1,2)
Maint MSG: 74-61491, 74-61492, 74-61501, 74-61502
The msg appear during starting engine almost 2 days a week.(my compay operate 11 airplanes)
I did this ground test on the MAT: 71-80 Left (Right) Engine, System Test, Ignition System (L (R) Eng). The audible test was always OK.
however, when the msg displayed, I purposelessly replaced components(ex. Igniter Plug, Cable, Exciter, ERU, EEC . . . ) due to fear.
Today the msg still on. What shall I do next step?
Shall I change eng type? RR or GE??
please, give me a tip...
Thanks.
I have sufferred from following faults.
Status MSG: ENG IGN L1,2(R1,2)
Maint MSG: 74-61491, 74-61492, 74-61501, 74-61502
The msg appear during starting engine almost 2 days a week.(my compay operate 11 airplanes)
I did this ground test on the MAT: 71-80 Left (Right) Engine, System Test, Ignition System (L (R) Eng). The audible test was always OK.
however, when the msg displayed, I purposelessly replaced components(ex. Igniter Plug, Cable, Exciter, ERU, EEC . . . ) due to fear.
Today the msg still on. What shall I do next step?
Shall I change eng type? RR or GE??
please, give me a tip...
Thanks.
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"TASK 74-00-00-740-801-N00
2. Ignition System - Operational Test
A. General
(1) This test makes sure the igniter and exciter operate correctly, and that there is aircraft electrical power to the ignition system. The test makes sure that the igniter relays in the engine relay unit (ERU), the igniter relay wires between the EEC and ERU, and the ignition voltage feedback circuits are OK.
As it seems that you've run this test and it always works OK, and you've replaced the major components for the system, perhaps the fault lays in the AIMS cabinet card that drives the message. Might I suggest you consider I/O card M008 LH Engine ( M009 RH Engine) in the AIMS cabinet. If you do change these cards, I'd double check the part number and software state to ensure they're compatible with the AIMS blockpoint software load.
2. Ignition System - Operational Test
A. General
(1) This test makes sure the igniter and exciter operate correctly, and that there is aircraft electrical power to the ignition system. The test makes sure that the igniter relays in the engine relay unit (ERU), the igniter relay wires between the EEC and ERU, and the ignition voltage feedback circuits are OK.
As it seems that you've run this test and it always works OK, and you've replaced the major components for the system, perhaps the fault lays in the AIMS cabinet card that drives the message. Might I suggest you consider I/O card M008 LH Engine ( M009 RH Engine) in the AIMS cabinet. If you do change these cards, I'd double check the part number and software state to ensure they're compatible with the AIMS blockpoint software load.
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I am ready to be shot down in flames here....
As a licensed engineer I would never come on here asking for help to a problem I couldn't solve, there are numbers of other more approved avenues to take i.e LMC or Boeing.
From my side of things after years of study, gaining experience and although we all try to help collegues when we can, surely by fault-finding problems on an aircraft half way round the world with god knows how many other issues we are doing ourselves an in justice by fixing the problem (degrading our licences/experience and eventually money)
As a licensed engineer I would never come on here asking for help to a problem I couldn't solve, there are numbers of other more approved avenues to take i.e LMC or Boeing.
From my side of things after years of study, gaining experience and although we all try to help collegues when we can, surely by fault-finding problems on an aircraft half way round the world with god knows how many other issues we are doing ourselves an in justice by fixing the problem (degrading our licences/experience and eventually money)
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I know all the answers arn't in the AMM or even the FIM. The point I am trying to make is that as a trade we are constantly battling the drop in standards, the fact that certain nations are gifting licences to people who have a very limited basic knowledge. I would love to see some fellow engineers try and work an aircraft without a FIM where they have to actually understand the system to trouble shoot it.
The other point I was making is that I am sure that when sungyoung returns to work he wont be saying I was on pprune and they think this is the problem......
Should we as experienced engineers really be solving problems on a/c we arnt working and knowledgable about all current defects on
As an experienced engineer seldom surely you know about covering your arse and asking for fault diagnosis on here wouldn't be part of it?
The other point I was making is that I am sure that when sungyoung returns to work he wont be saying I was on pprune and they think this is the problem......
Should we as experienced engineers really be solving problems on a/c we arnt working and knowledgable about all current defects on
As an experienced engineer seldom surely you know about covering your arse and asking for fault diagnosis on here wouldn't be part of it?
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it could be a problem with the immersion depth of the ignitors....they have special shims. The audible check will work but sometimes the engine won's light off with that ignitor. Check the AMM for depth adjustment!
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sungyoung, you are not the only one...........B777s with P & Ws have an ongoing issue with their ignition problems........our aircraft have the same problems.....replaced everything according to FIM but problem still there.........dont worry the P&W guys know about it.......wait for a mod coming up!!!! Dont ask me when??? It is intermittent isnt it??? Fault goes away for a few Start cycles then comes back again........then disappears and the comes back again........will pm you if I come across some new info!!!
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MrMagooo - I have raised the very same issue many months ago and it certainly elicited a few comments. I agree with your sentiments entirely but seems like we may not be in the majority here.Never mind, log book entry, ignitor plug replaced for the 50th time IAW. www.pprune.org
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Terry and Mrmagoo........you are right........but there is no harm in asking something which you havent come across!!!!
We all go as per AMMs and FIMs.......but we all know they dont cover all the defects......I agree its not a good practice to come on here and ask Technical questions but there is no harm in asking a general question about a genuine issue which nobody seems to know about??? There is always someone who has come across it before.........
Not everyone likes to think THEY KNOW EVERYTHING or like to carry a chip on their shoulders.....but there is no point in slagging someone off if they have asked something......
We all go as per AMMs and FIMs.......but we all know they dont cover all the defects......I agree its not a good practice to come on here and ask Technical questions but there is no harm in asking a general question about a genuine issue which nobody seems to know about??? There is always someone who has come across it before.........
Not everyone likes to think THEY KNOW EVERYTHING or like to carry a chip on their shoulders.....but there is no point in slagging someone off if they have asked something......
Last edited by MrFixer!!!; 27th Jul 2009 at 17:48.
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Sorry guys a non-technical point of view .
mrmagooo : " i am ready to be shot down in flames here ..."
It is not my style but here i am .
" the fact that certain nations are gifting licences to people who have a very limited basic knowledge."
Can you please develop ? I can feel some racism and a feeling of superiority ...
Is it because Sungyoung is in Seoul ?
Maybe he is from UK like where you are ?
FYI , i have worked with some Asians and i am quite sure that they are better than you with troubleshooting ...
The first time i was reading the beginning of this thread , like another guy , i was thinking too about a trouble of depth ... but we need to check more with the M.Msgs .
mrmagooo , have a look on the reply from MrFixer from LHR.
Interesting ...
Cheers.
Salut.
mrmagooo : " i am ready to be shot down in flames here ..."
It is not my style but here i am .
" the fact that certain nations are gifting licences to people who have a very limited basic knowledge."
Can you please develop ? I can feel some racism and a feeling of superiority ...
Is it because Sungyoung is in Seoul ?
Maybe he is from UK like where you are ?
FYI , i have worked with some Asians and i am quite sure that they are better than you with troubleshooting ...
The first time i was reading the beginning of this thread , like another guy , i was thinking too about a trouble of depth ... but we need to check more with the M.Msgs .
mrmagooo , have a look on the reply from MrFixer from LHR.
Interesting ...
Cheers.
Salut.
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MATMAX from those 2 posts you consider me to be a racist. I am most definately not, I think racism is a terrible thing.
It may be a painfull thing to accept that I and many others believe that certain nations are gifting people licenses (being in France Im sure you may know 1 or 2 people) but it is a fact.
Offering a suggestion to have you checked this or that ok, but what should I do next? Does that sound like somebody with a wealth of experience.
As an engineer I am always willing to accept I dont have the answer but asking on a forum where you dont know who is replying about the defect hardly seems correct.
Depth of ignitors checked IAW pprune forum post #
It may be a painfull thing to accept that I and many others believe that certain nations are gifting people licenses (being in France Im sure you may know 1 or 2 people) but it is a fact.
Offering a suggestion to have you checked this or that ok, but what should I do next? Does that sound like somebody with a wealth of experience.
As an engineer I am always willing to accept I dont have the answer but asking on a forum where you dont know who is replying about the defect hardly seems correct.
Depth of ignitors checked IAW pprune forum post #
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I would like to ask both of you (Mrmagoo and Terry) a very Basic question???? Do you have B777s on your License???? Do you work on B777s with Pratts????
If you have......help the guy if you know something which he doesnt ........if you dont........you know the answer to that one......
I am sure guys who work on the newer Aircraft Types come across defects which are not mentioned anywhere in the AMM or a FIM......the Maintrol doesnt have a clue.....the Tech specialist doesnt help you....the manufacturer doesnt even know which bit is playing up........and tell you what.....if I am stuck in that situation I would not hesitate to ask anyone from other side of the world who operates the same aircraft Type!!! I will not sign it as " Released to service IAW www.pprune .org"..........but tell you what....I will give it a go.......
Because its professional not to CARRY A CHIP ON THE SHOULDER or think OH I KNOW EVERYTHING.........because the people who say that or think like that.......either havent lived......or dont go out and do any work.......
I dont know which company or which airlines you 2 work for........but you guys do give the impression of " Oh I know everything because I can read it in the AMM or FIM"......I tell you something......even a unskilled tradesman or a school student can go and read the book and go work on the aircraft exactly the way its written in the book.
the skill lies in doing the troubleshooting which isnt mentioned anywhere.....I am sure I have seen so many of your types who go on Boasting to everyone yeah I am the ENGINEER, only because I can read the book........but when any problem appears which isnt mentioned anywhere......then you guys run away leaving it for the next Shift or the other guys to sort it out.........
So please if you cant help someone directly.......dont come up with useless replies and just dont try to be idealistic.......because idealists dont exist in the real world..........atleast show some professional etiquette!!!
And Sungyoung.......dont get put off with some useless people putting useless replies here........I am sure there are people who can help with some real problems!!!
If you have......help the guy if you know something which he doesnt ........if you dont........you know the answer to that one......
I am sure guys who work on the newer Aircraft Types come across defects which are not mentioned anywhere in the AMM or a FIM......the Maintrol doesnt have a clue.....the Tech specialist doesnt help you....the manufacturer doesnt even know which bit is playing up........and tell you what.....if I am stuck in that situation I would not hesitate to ask anyone from other side of the world who operates the same aircraft Type!!! I will not sign it as " Released to service IAW www.pprune .org"..........but tell you what....I will give it a go.......
Because its professional not to CARRY A CHIP ON THE SHOULDER or think OH I KNOW EVERYTHING.........because the people who say that or think like that.......either havent lived......or dont go out and do any work.......
I dont know which company or which airlines you 2 work for........but you guys do give the impression of " Oh I know everything because I can read it in the AMM or FIM"......I tell you something......even a unskilled tradesman or a school student can go and read the book and go work on the aircraft exactly the way its written in the book.
the skill lies in doing the troubleshooting which isnt mentioned anywhere.....I am sure I have seen so many of your types who go on Boasting to everyone yeah I am the ENGINEER, only because I can read the book........but when any problem appears which isnt mentioned anywhere......then you guys run away leaving it for the next Shift or the other guys to sort it out.........
So please if you cant help someone directly.......dont come up with useless replies and just dont try to be idealistic.......because idealists dont exist in the real world..........atleast show some professional etiquette!!!
And Sungyoung.......dont get put off with some useless people putting useless replies here........I am sure there are people who can help with some real problems!!!
Last edited by MrFixer!!!; 29th Jul 2009 at 00:12.
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Sungyoung, reply to the original post........
The problem lies deeper than what the EXPERTS here mentioned about the depth of igniters.....
Look into the last leg report and see which igniter fails regularly and then try to find out which EEC channel was in command at that time......problem is...as soon the engine start cycle begins and the igniter which was meant to light up fails.......other igniter gets commanded to light up......and another EEC channel takes over....
I have sent my reports and waiting for some reply.....its a manufacturing fault and more to do with the compatibility of EEC channels,ERU,ELMS and Ignition xfr Relays.
its not a quick fix so randomly changing components wont get you anywhere.....try and pinpoint the Channel in EEC which does faulty starts and then start from there!!!
The problem lies deeper than what the EXPERTS here mentioned about the depth of igniters.....
Look into the last leg report and see which igniter fails regularly and then try to find out which EEC channel was in command at that time......problem is...as soon the engine start cycle begins and the igniter which was meant to light up fails.......other igniter gets commanded to light up......and another EEC channel takes over....
I have sent my reports and waiting for some reply.....its a manufacturing fault and more to do with the compatibility of EEC channels,ERU,ELMS and Ignition xfr Relays.
its not a quick fix so randomly changing components wont get you anywhere.....try and pinpoint the Channel in EEC which does faulty starts and then start from there!!!
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MrFixer!!! - Yes I am licensed on the B777, since 1996. PM me if you wish but I'll offer little more than I would publicly. I reflected initially on my first post, that, you might recall was regarding a member who was considering removing a reverser drive gearbox to lock out a T/R on an MD11.You simply don't know who is out there and offering technical information on a public forum has to be taken with extreme caution and care. I learn something new each and every day I go to work but always present is the underlying requirement to repair and certify aircraft in accordance with approved manuals and publications. If a B777/PW operator has issues with ignition problems ( and I'm sure they have ) then the onus is on them to provide the necessary tools to fix it, not individuals fishing about in the dark hoping for a quick fix. That's my five Bob's worth anyway . . . Stay safe everyone.
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MATMAX from those 2 posts you consider me to be a racist. I am most definately not, I think racism is a terrible thing.
"I think racism is a terrible thing" , for sure !
"I am most definately not" , thats what YOU say.
It may be a painfull thing to accept that I and many others believe that certain nations are gifting people licenses (being in France Im sure you may know 1 or 2 people) but it is a fact.
Don't you think , it is more educated to say : many others and I ?
"being in France Im sure you may know 1 or 2 people but it is a fact" : for me facts are events and not personal feelings ...
Offering a suggestion to have you checked this or that ok, but what should I do next? Does that sound like somebody with a wealth of experience.
Yes , i think so , experience will tell you what to check first , by experience you will have an idea ...
What will you do if the MMs are not telling you what to do ?
What about if the MAT (Maintenance Access Terminal , for the ones who are not 777) is unserviceable or maybe not working well ...
As an engineer I am always willing to accept I dont have the answer but asking on a forum where you dont know who is replying about the defect hardly seems correct.
Why ?
Maybe somebody will have the answer to your problem ...
"you dont know who is replying" is it so important to know ...?
Depth of ignitors checked IAW PPRuNe forum post #
Did you write it down on a Tech. Log already ?
It is so well written ...
Personnaly , I will have a look also on the contact surfaces between the ignitor and what we call in France , the "cigarette" , the end of the lead.
It used to happen on some others engines ...
If you can not find a "way" to fix a defect by following the MMs , use your knowledge , and the documents as a base of thinking ...
I believe that like this , you will fix "new" defects.
Salut.
"I think racism is a terrible thing" , for sure !
"I am most definately not" , thats what YOU say.
It may be a painfull thing to accept that I and many others believe that certain nations are gifting people licenses (being in France Im sure you may know 1 or 2 people) but it is a fact.
Don't you think , it is more educated to say : many others and I ?
"being in France Im sure you may know 1 or 2 people but it is a fact" : for me facts are events and not personal feelings ...
Offering a suggestion to have you checked this or that ok, but what should I do next? Does that sound like somebody with a wealth of experience.
Yes , i think so , experience will tell you what to check first , by experience you will have an idea ...
What will you do if the MMs are not telling you what to do ?
What about if the MAT (Maintenance Access Terminal , for the ones who are not 777) is unserviceable or maybe not working well ...
As an engineer I am always willing to accept I dont have the answer but asking on a forum where you dont know who is replying about the defect hardly seems correct.
Why ?
Maybe somebody will have the answer to your problem ...
"you dont know who is replying" is it so important to know ...?
Depth of ignitors checked IAW PPRuNe forum post #
Did you write it down on a Tech. Log already ?
It is so well written ...
Personnaly , I will have a look also on the contact surfaces between the ignitor and what we call in France , the "cigarette" , the end of the lead.
It used to happen on some others engines ...
If you can not find a "way" to fix a defect by following the MMs , use your knowledge , and the documents as a base of thinking ...
I believe that like this , you will fix "new" defects.
Salut.
