Aviation mechanic shortage
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I thought we became technicians when we became part of EASA.
Just looked at my licence & it just says Aircraft Maintenance Licence.
WTF so long as the beer chits go in!
Just looked at my licence & it just says Aircraft Maintenance Licence.
WTF so long as the beer chits go in!
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I have seen the standard of workmanship in mro`s in the USA and around the world as a tech rep...........
I wouldnt let 99% of usa "A&P MECHANICS" repair my bike....
common sense seemed to be missing!!
Perhaps thats why the money in USA is ****e...?
I wouldnt let 99% of usa "A&P MECHANICS" repair my bike....
common sense seemed to be missing!!
Perhaps thats why the money in USA is ****e...?
In the US we have ten of thousand of commercial flights everyday and thousand of privately own aircrafts, more than anywhere in world, and yet enjoy one of the safest aviation system, in the world. Guess what, all these aircrafts are maintained by dedicated mechanics like me, and we do it with pride and dedication beside the low pay, long hour and lack of respect. So please, the topic here is mechanic shortage not who is better between A/P and B1/B2.
Btw I also worked for a British MRO in the past in Essex.....
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There is definately a shortage of engineers, technicians and mechanics coming up. It has been on the cards and talked about for years. The airlines know this. This is why they have pressured the CAA/JAR/EASA into the A and B licenses. Work that was previously carried out by mechs/tech and signed for by A,C ad X licensed engineers, which added another level of safety as an "independant" inspection was carried out before certifying, is now completed by A, B1 or B2 people mostly working alone (on the line at least). This reduces the numbers of staff considerably but also in some ways removes another level of safety.
As mentioned earlier the average age of maintenance staff in the UK is relatively higher than say 10/20 years ago with most airlines not running apprenticeships so the youngsters don't get a chance to join the industry even if they really want to.
As for the argument of A&P versus B1/B2, i hold both A&P and part 66 B1/B2. There are pros and cons to both. The practical exam for the A and P is an excellent idea and not as easy as most people think. The part 66 theory exams on the other hand go completely over the top (in fact my module 5 digital techniques was more in depth on fibre optics than what BT engineers go through!) and could do with being updated to real world aircraft and maintenance techniques. The A and P theory exams on the other hand are relatively easier compared with part66 modules (helped by the answers being published) and not going into anywhere near the depth of part 66, but then a lot of what's in part66 which is irrelevant to day to day maintenance... when was the last time someone opened up a VHF transceiver to check the superhet IF on the line??
The problem with the A and P is that you are a "jack of all trades and master of none" as there's no differentiation between electrics/avionics/engines and structures There are very few people who feel comfortable with all these disciplines, myself included, as there's always a natural tendency to drift towards either the mechanical or electrical trades. Unfortuately the FAA don't address this problem and it seems EASA are drifting towards this way of certifying, again under the pressure of airlines to help fire fight the lack of trained mechs/techs/engineers.
Having worked with many A and P engineers over the years in the US they could seemlessly certify to EASA part66 standards but obviously but that is only my experience!
The days of 100's of apprentices being trained are long gone.
As mentioned earlier the average age of maintenance staff in the UK is relatively higher than say 10/20 years ago with most airlines not running apprenticeships so the youngsters don't get a chance to join the industry even if they really want to.
As for the argument of A&P versus B1/B2, i hold both A&P and part 66 B1/B2. There are pros and cons to both. The practical exam for the A and P is an excellent idea and not as easy as most people think. The part 66 theory exams on the other hand go completely over the top (in fact my module 5 digital techniques was more in depth on fibre optics than what BT engineers go through!) and could do with being updated to real world aircraft and maintenance techniques. The A and P theory exams on the other hand are relatively easier compared with part66 modules (helped by the answers being published) and not going into anywhere near the depth of part 66, but then a lot of what's in part66 which is irrelevant to day to day maintenance... when was the last time someone opened up a VHF transceiver to check the superhet IF on the line??
The problem with the A and P is that you are a "jack of all trades and master of none" as there's no differentiation between electrics/avionics/engines and structures There are very few people who feel comfortable with all these disciplines, myself included, as there's always a natural tendency to drift towards either the mechanical or electrical trades. Unfortuately the FAA don't address this problem and it seems EASA are drifting towards this way of certifying, again under the pressure of airlines to help fire fight the lack of trained mechs/techs/engineers.
Having worked with many A and P engineers over the years in the US they could seemlessly certify to EASA part66 standards but obviously but that is only my experience!
The days of 100's of apprentices being trained are long gone.
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I was told by a senior BA Engineering rep, that the average age of engineering staff at LGW is 45 and at LHR, it is 55. Not a good state to be in, but moving 50 more engineers from LGW to LHR may bring the average down to 54.5!
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I've been looking seriously at becoming a licenced engineer, but the length of time needed and the things to complete training are so complicated and time consuming that I've elected to join the RAF as an engineer, with the chance to go into avionics aswell. Seems a good choice, with excellent training and good career prospects, the civilian world seems very bizarre in a way with EASA stamping its authority wherever it can and causing people problems!
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I've been looking seriously at becoming a licenced engineer, but the length of time needed and the things to complete training are so complicated and time consuming that I've elected to join the RAF as an engineer, with the chance to go into avionics aswell. Seems a good choice, with excellent training and good career prospects, the civilian world seems very bizarre in a way with EASA stamping its authority wherever it can and causing people problems!
The length of time, training and examinations required are there for a reason - to ensure only the very best become Licensed Aircraft Engineers. Well that's how it used to be but with the advent of EASA and the inconsistencies in the various National Aviation Authorities ability to interpret and implement rules and regulations, it seems anybody can get a licence nowadays.
I wish you a long and successful career in the RAF but do not fool yourself into thinking the training and career progression is good. To put things into perspective, I work alongside a civilian apprentice trained LAE who has enough type ratings on his licence to see him through to retirement. He is pulling in over £50k basic for his troubles and is just 25 years of age. I'm ex RAF and I can tell you that you have to stay in for an entire career and reach the dizzy heights of FS or WO to get anywhere near the level of responsibility/authority he holds or the pay he commands. If you are switched on and have a strong desire to succeed, you will be forever held back in the forces.
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EGT redline.
The bad thing about the 25 year old that you know, who is earning (well, being paid!) £50K is that he has reached his salary cap, unless he makes Senior Manager level. OK, contracting gives more potential to have ready cash, but then full time has the other benefits too. Sideways moves into tech services etc, get rid of shift work, but the pay does not go up. Where I am, two promotions equate to £4K and then it is behind a desk and that £2K is definitely not worth it! Market rate has removed incremental scales, as you have to treat everybody the same, to be able to attract people with the right qualifications. No other qualifications count towards pay because you do not need them to do your job.
There are big problems within our industry because it is hard work to pass the exams but you will never be a millionaire fixing aeroplanes. I am not halfway through my career yet, but I will be probably working Christmas Day nights for most of the rest of it!
The bad thing about the 25 year old that you know, who is earning (well, being paid!) £50K is that he has reached his salary cap, unless he makes Senior Manager level. OK, contracting gives more potential to have ready cash, but then full time has the other benefits too. Sideways moves into tech services etc, get rid of shift work, but the pay does not go up. Where I am, two promotions equate to £4K and then it is behind a desk and that £2K is definitely not worth it! Market rate has removed incremental scales, as you have to treat everybody the same, to be able to attract people with the right qualifications. No other qualifications count towards pay because you do not need them to do your job.
There are big problems within our industry because it is hard work to pass the exams but you will never be a millionaire fixing aeroplanes. I am not halfway through my career yet, but I will be probably working Christmas Day nights for most of the rest of it!
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what it says,thats my point.
Draw your own conclusions and chill out.
This is a place to say your views....and if you dont like it,dont use it.
Draw your own conclusions and chill out.
This is a place to say your views....and if you dont like it,dont use it.
Well since you are much more knowledgeable than me, would please explain to me what the alaska and american airlines story has to do with this topic.
Please, do say your views. However, It will be nice to know what your views are about this thread.
Cunning Artificer
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...its a massive investment, and in comparision not as rewarding as other careers given the responsibility.
In my own case, had I invested exactly the same amount of time and effort in another career I would by now be a doctor, dentist, chartered accountant or a partner in a law firm and would consider a salary of £50k to be laughable.
The problem in getting enough people with the right ability and dedication is that the job doesn't pay enough to justify the investment. As long as mechanics, technicians or licensed engineers - whatever we choose to call ourselves - are regarded in the same light as the man who fixes our boiler or rips us off after tinkering with our car, we'll remain at the bottom of the chain.
Perhaps we should travel to work in suits, wear white dustcoats instead of overalls at work, then call ourselves Independent Technical Advisors?
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The industry has been predicting a shortage of Engineers for the past 12 years, but for a variety of reasons it just has not happened - yet. The reasons for this are numurous but one of the main factors is the maintenance programmes for new aircraft i.e. A&C Checks need less manhours (MSG3 Maintenance Programmes and aircraft built with maintenance in mind = less manhours), plus the frequency/periodicity of the Checks are required less often compared to "Classic" types. This has masked the impending cliff edge and has probably lulled the industry into thinking "what shortage" (Crying Wolf too often). But it is heading our way very fast now.
Bizdev
Bizdev
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BOEINGCHAP. forgot..or what ever your name is... nasty attitude you have! maybe if you had not had such attitude your missus wouldnt have left you...eh?? yes old son........I know you.
BOEINGCHAP, Stop wasting people's time with your pointless drivel. You've got nothing to contribute here.
(Could it be that WellDung, Wisenwel Shrivelled and BOEINGCHAP are all one.
)PS. I checked with 'missus' of 40 years as she was having breakfast. 'No complaints'.
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Biz, Totally agree.
It's ok for the airlines that can afford to replace their fleets every few years but for users of 20+ year old A320's there's a lot of work involved.
We always used to say that the 'A320 will be the Tristar of the future' and the from what i've seen that's coming true. (and we all remember them don't we??)
I remember the 747's coming out of London Airways hangar TBJ in nearly new condition after Major checks. I now see A330's coming out after C checks with next to nothing being done to them and normally in far worse condition than before they went in.
Not sure what the A330 and 777 will be like in 20+ years after half a dozen C checks but at least it should hopefully keep us all employed....
It's ok for the airlines that can afford to replace their fleets every few years but for users of 20+ year old A320's there's a lot of work involved.
We always used to say that the 'A320 will be the Tristar of the future' and the from what i've seen that's coming true. (and we all remember them don't we??)
I remember the 747's coming out of London Airways hangar TBJ in nearly new condition after Major checks. I now see A330's coming out after C checks with next to nothing being done to them and normally in far worse condition than before they went in.
Not sure what the A330 and 777 will be like in 20+ years after half a dozen C checks but at least it should hopefully keep us all employed....
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Blacksheep Quote:
...its a massive investment, and in comparision not as rewarding as other careers given the responsibility.
Given the time and effort needed to acquire the licence, endorsed with enough significant type ratings to command the £50k that one poster has mentioned, any basic Cost-Benefit Analysis would reject aircraft maintenance as a career.
In my own case, had I invested exactly the same amount of time and effort in another career I would by now be a doctor, dentist, chartered accountant or a partner in a law firm and would consider a salary of £50k to be laughable.
...its a massive investment, and in comparision not as rewarding as other careers given the responsibility.
Given the time and effort needed to acquire the licence, endorsed with enough significant type ratings to command the £50k that one poster has mentioned, any basic Cost-Benefit Analysis would reject aircraft maintenance as a career.
In my own case, had I invested exactly the same amount of time and effort in another career I would by now be a doctor, dentist, chartered accountant or a partner in a law firm and would consider a salary of £50k to be laughable.
Look at it this way, you are almost a qualified gynecologist,
only the holes you have to try to work in are often smaller and further away from the task in hand, and 99% of the time it probably smells better.
On a serious note, yes there is a shortage and one thing driving it is the reduction in the size of the RAF etc..... when I left the RAF and did my licences in the early 80's it still had engineering capabilities of a decent size, with that getting smaller and smaller there is a lack of suitable engineers coming onto the market from those sources and the Civil sector has never done anything to redress the problem, far from it they have gone the opposite direction... and it will only get worse.