Air New Zealand
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Air New Zealand
Air New Zealand must be the most despised airline in Australia. So I suggest that the reason Freedom is to operate here is to overcome this the Australian public's feeling against Air New Zealand. Average Joe Blow does not realise that Air New Zealand owns Freedom. I hope that the Australian Public soon become aware of who owns Air New Zealand and continue to vote with their feet. And walk past both Air New Zealand and Freedom.
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Qantas Australia did not "save" Qantas New Zealand... People were pissed... and yet now they fly happily on Qantas in NZ... We the redundant workers hoped that public sentiment would force them to operate with kiwis in a "QFNZ Mark 2" manner... This has not happened yet.
And here is the real point... The average person dosen't give a toss after a couple of months... its not in the news anymore...
You sound like an angry man. Anger is good. BUT you've got to let it go... it will kill you not to mention alienate those around you cos no one likes a grouch...
And here is the real point... The average person dosen't give a toss after a couple of months... its not in the news anymore...
You sound like an angry man. Anger is good. BUT you've got to let it go... it will kill you not to mention alienate those around you cos no one likes a grouch...
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Give me a break!
While Air NZ may be hated in Australia, it didn't take long for many to forget that Australians were instrumental in helping Tasman Pacific's collapse last year!
Where was QF Australia when we needed them? It didn't take long for the travelling public to forget about the hundreds of pilots, cabin crew, ground crew and ancillary staff that were made redundant (many finding out through the media!) because Qantas bailed out in the early hours of the previous morning!
The travelling public soon forget, and as for people in the industry; one shouldn't throw stones in the playground!
:o
While Air NZ may be hated in Australia, it didn't take long for many to forget that Australians were instrumental in helping Tasman Pacific's collapse last year!
Where was QF Australia when we needed them? It didn't take long for the travelling public to forget about the hundreds of pilots, cabin crew, ground crew and ancillary staff that were made redundant (many finding out through the media!) because Qantas bailed out in the early hours of the previous morning!
The travelling public soon forget, and as for people in the industry; one shouldn't throw stones in the playground!
:o
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Ready, Fire, Aim!
Personally, I grieve for the lost jobs at AN, particularly for the friends I made in the RAAF when I visited Edinburgh for Fincastle who went on to fly for AN. It's an emotion I share with every pilot I speak to, so don't try and tar me with the charge of having gloated (or whatever) when those jobs were lost. As for AN itself, I'm not sure we should grieve at all, as the body appeared nearly a corpse and the management on the scene - AN and AirNZ - were clearly not up to the job.
I do feel that a lot of AN posters live on in denial. Not many would accept that, as the pilot is the last person able to avert an accident, he bears total responsibility for not having done so. Now apply that statement to the AirNZ involvement with AN: it's hard make the same linkage isn't it?
The white knight theory also gets a workout, so let's have a look at http://xtramsn.co.nz/business/0,,5008-1355564,00.html. It's an interesting, and not too personally biassed, look at why, perhaps, management - again AirNZ and AN - weren't able to do what they wanted. For me, the main points would be:
1. QF's willingness to lobby the Australian government to screw the scrum. (Good for them, it's looking after oneself.)
2. The relative willingness of the respective Oz/NZ governments to confront some ticklish national-interest issues surrounding the airlines involved. (And don't get me started on the NZ government's contrasting ability to address the national-interest issues surrounding a credible defence force).
3. The conditions put on the sale of AN by the FIRB. I'd guess that these were reasonable within the AN/QF duopoly, but set the weaker of the two - AN - up for a fall when Virgin arrived.
4. The relaxation of the duopoly immediately after the AN purchase - timing is everything.
5. SQ's performance (?) as a shareholder.
6. The lingering question over the groundings. Did some disaffected AN staff kick an own goal.
7. The continuing vulnerability of the current AirNZ within the wider Australasian market. It's why this sorry mess kicked off, and our Helen's statement that: 'AirNZ has been profitable in the past and we don't see any reason why it can't be again' only goes to show that she wasn't listening.
Just a coupla thoughts to keep this one going.....
I do feel that a lot of AN posters live on in denial. Not many would accept that, as the pilot is the last person able to avert an accident, he bears total responsibility for not having done so. Now apply that statement to the AirNZ involvement with AN: it's hard make the same linkage isn't it?
The white knight theory also gets a workout, so let's have a look at http://xtramsn.co.nz/business/0,,5008-1355564,00.html. It's an interesting, and not too personally biassed, look at why, perhaps, management - again AirNZ and AN - weren't able to do what they wanted. For me, the main points would be:
1. QF's willingness to lobby the Australian government to screw the scrum. (Good for them, it's looking after oneself.)
2. The relative willingness of the respective Oz/NZ governments to confront some ticklish national-interest issues surrounding the airlines involved. (And don't get me started on the NZ government's contrasting ability to address the national-interest issues surrounding a credible defence force).
3. The conditions put on the sale of AN by the FIRB. I'd guess that these were reasonable within the AN/QF duopoly, but set the weaker of the two - AN - up for a fall when Virgin arrived.
4. The relaxation of the duopoly immediately after the AN purchase - timing is everything.
5. SQ's performance (?) as a shareholder.
6. The lingering question over the groundings. Did some disaffected AN staff kick an own goal.
7. The continuing vulnerability of the current AirNZ within the wider Australasian market. It's why this sorry mess kicked off, and our Helen's statement that: 'AirNZ has been profitable in the past and we don't see any reason why it can't be again' only goes to show that she wasn't listening.
Just a coupla thoughts to keep this one going.....
Bottums Up
As I understand things, QFNZ was a franchise type arrangement with QF having no financial interest in the company other than contracting them to provide a service.
If my understanding is correct, why should QF have bailed them out of financial troubles? I can't see any similarity with ANZ/Ansett where Ansett was a wholly owned subsidiary company, not an independant contractor.
If my understanding is correct, why should QF have bailed them out of financial troubles? I can't see any similarity with ANZ/Ansett where Ansett was a wholly owned subsidiary company, not an independant contractor.
Join Date: Apr 2001
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There is a lot of talk about Ansett being a high cost airline, which is why it went under. I would hardly call Air NZ lean and mean.
Pacific Wave Idea = $150,000,000 wasted
SAP computer system = $55,000,000 wasted
The difference between the two:
Ansett lost business to Virgin, Impulse and Qantas. With any normal airline the margins are thin, and with a penniless owner, the writing was on the wall.
Air NZ had little domestic competiton, so it had the margins.
The thing Air NZ people have to do, is accept that their airline management had a major part in the Ansett tragedy.
Pacific Wave Idea = $150,000,000 wasted
SAP computer system = $55,000,000 wasted
The difference between the two:
Ansett lost business to Virgin, Impulse and Qantas. With any normal airline the margins are thin, and with a penniless owner, the writing was on the wall.
Air NZ had little domestic competiton, so it had the margins.
The thing Air NZ people have to do, is accept that their airline management had a major part in the Ansett tragedy.
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Well I was an outsider who happened to be on the inside at the time of the ANZ take over of AN. There was a HUGE amount of money wasted on all sorts of stuipity, and I mean tens of millions of AUD. Much of this was in the name of saving $200M a year by combining the infrastucture of the two airlines. No mention of the cost of doing it though, and there never was $200M to save either, more like $20M
There was one very clear leader in all this waste - Sir Selwyn. If there is anyone person or a small group of people to blame, then you MUST start and finish with this man. He may not have been alone, but he most certainly was at the helm when the rot took hold. By the time Toomey came along it was all but to late, and then IMHO Toomey was not allowed to do the things that he could see needed to be done.
There are two innocent groups that I feel very sorry for in this whole stuff up. The employees on both sides of the Tasman who worked for both AN & ANZ prior to the merge, and now don't have a job, and secondly, the mum & dad shareholders of ANZ who Sir Selwyn and Ms Clarke between them have shafted properly.
There was one very clear leader in all this waste - Sir Selwyn. If there is anyone person or a small group of people to blame, then you MUST start and finish with this man. He may not have been alone, but he most certainly was at the helm when the rot took hold. By the time Toomey came along it was all but to late, and then IMHO Toomey was not allowed to do the things that he could see needed to be done.
There are two innocent groups that I feel very sorry for in this whole stuff up. The employees on both sides of the Tasman who worked for both AN & ANZ prior to the merge, and now don't have a job, and secondly, the mum & dad shareholders of ANZ who Sir Selwyn and Ms Clarke between them have shafted properly.
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Bang on target Feeton - Sir Selwyn, the typical Brierly megalomaniac deserves to wear the bulk of the blame for the whole debacle. This is the guy who put himself in at acting CEO when Jim McCrae left - despite not actually knowing anything about running an airline.
Evertonian
Look. Lots of people have pointed the finger at all & sundry. But it was Abeles & Murdoch who started the ball rolling. Plenty of FW's along the way kept the ball moving & Sir Sell my cushion & his mates were the ones who dropped the ball in the end. Simple.
Someone mentioned AN staff are in denial...too bluddy right! I see those aircraft at Tulla every day & still can't believe it. You put your heart & soul into a company only to have it ripped away from you through no fault of your own, it's gotta hurt. More importantly, it takes time to heal.
There are people out ther who have no other skills to offer employers in different industies and are hurting badly. Same goes, I'm sure, for the QFNZ people too. There's only so many airline jobs left nowadays.
The punters may remember AN for a while to come, but certainly not with any longing for it's return. All they see now is how many of their "hard earned" has to be forked out for a ticket. Long gone are the days when; "I always travel (insert airline here)"
Someone mentioned AN staff are in denial...too bluddy right! I see those aircraft at Tulla every day & still can't believe it. You put your heart & soul into a company only to have it ripped away from you through no fault of your own, it's gotta hurt. More importantly, it takes time to heal.
There are people out ther who have no other skills to offer employers in different industies and are hurting badly. Same goes, I'm sure, for the QFNZ people too. There's only so many airline jobs left nowadays.
The punters may remember AN for a while to come, but certainly not with any longing for it's return. All they see now is how many of their "hard earned" has to be forked out for a ticket. Long gone are the days when; "I always travel (insert airline here)"
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Damned good post, Buster, and an accurate analysis of the situation!
OTOH, Biggles51's thread opener, which starts "Air New Zealand must be the most despised airline in Australia." is a load of codswallop - it's nothing more than spleen venting which, if it continues, may end up leading him further down the dark road he's apparently walking.
I don't know what financial and emtional traumas he's enduring at this time, but they WILL pass - albeit not in the way he had hoped.
Although many AN staff may FEEL that they are not qualified for any position other than that which in they were employed at Ansett, all of us have natural talents that have remained dormant/suppressed during most of our working life.
Right now, it simply may be next to impossible to score aviation-related employment, so USE those god-given abilities to get some $$'s back.
Air New Zealand is going through a tough time, and it would appear that their management are preparing for a "purge" (it's just a shame some of THEM can't be flushed away
), however the LAST thing Ansett staff need are MORE well qualified airline staff tipped onto the market.
OTOH, Biggles51's thread opener, which starts "Air New Zealand must be the most despised airline in Australia." is a load of codswallop - it's nothing more than spleen venting which, if it continues, may end up leading him further down the dark road he's apparently walking.
I don't know what financial and emtional traumas he's enduring at this time, but they WILL pass - albeit not in the way he had hoped.
Although many AN staff may FEEL that they are not qualified for any position other than that which in they were employed at Ansett, all of us have natural talents that have remained dormant/suppressed during most of our working life.
Right now, it simply may be next to impossible to score aviation-related employment, so USE those god-given abilities to get some $$'s back.
Air New Zealand is going through a tough time, and it would appear that their management are preparing for a "purge" (it's just a shame some of THEM can't be flushed away
), however the LAST thing Ansett staff need are MORE well qualified airline staff tipped onto the market.
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If the Oz public did not notice that ANZ was controlled from Singapore I doubt that they will care that Freedom is owned by Mt Cook Airlines which is owned by ANZ. They will go back to good prices and service. Frankly the community of Queensland has shown openess and fairplay to all airlines.
Last edited by Oldlearner; 13th Jul 2002 at 11:58.
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Capt Claret I have to disagree a little with what you are saying. Joe Bloggs was buying a ticket on Ansett Aust. and one day he couldn't use it because it wasn't there anymore because for whatever reasons Air NZ elected to leave it alone. Another Joe Bloggs was also buying a ticket on QF NZ and same thing happened. Either way, in spite of damage to their reputations from refusing to financially support either airline both elected to walk away. You could argue that as it was a franchise QF wasn't obliged but it hadn't put in a dime yet whereas Air NZ had coughed up plenty for Ansett Aust. and the capital injection required for QFNZ would have been far less. Or maybe, because of the competition Air NZ provides in NZ, Qantas didn't like the odds and prefer it when they have a huge chunk of the market to start with. Now they carry sod all people in NZ and fly maintrunk where they see fit but have eliminated any large financial commitment. And Air NZ carry sod all people in Aust and have also eliminated any large financial commitment. I was going to also mention that pilot groups in both airlines thought they were earning a meagre tuppence and that the end result was massive job losses all round. Numerically fewer in NZ of course but towns like Christchurch were pretty badly hit when it folded. And both unions blame poor management and will always do so. 
