Virgin trains RAAF pilots
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Virgin trains RAAF pilots
Off the Fin Review this morning
Virgin trains RAAF pilots
April 23, 2002
DISCOUNT carrier Virgin Blue has signed a contract to train pilots who crew VIP aircraft for the Australian air force.
Virgin pilots will fly alongside the RAAF pilots, instructing them on how to operate the 737 Next Generation aircraft.
The contract follows the RAAF's decision to introduce Boeing Business Jets to its executive fleet.
Virgin Blue's director of flight operations, Captain John Raby, said the RAAF pilots would be rostered as normal Virgin crew members, flying alongside training captains for six weeks before returning to the air force.
They would then be responsible for crewing both domestic and international flights for Australian VIPs, including Prime Minister John Howard.
Virgin trains RAAF pilots
April 23, 2002
DISCOUNT carrier Virgin Blue has signed a contract to train pilots who crew VIP aircraft for the Australian air force.
Virgin pilots will fly alongside the RAAF pilots, instructing them on how to operate the 737 Next Generation aircraft.
The contract follows the RAAF's decision to introduce Boeing Business Jets to its executive fleet.
Virgin Blue's director of flight operations, Captain John Raby, said the RAAF pilots would be rostered as normal Virgin crew members, flying alongside training captains for six weeks before returning to the air force.
They would then be responsible for crewing both domestic and international flights for Australian VIPs, including Prime Minister John Howard.
Evertonian
I see 2 problems here.
Firstly, I can't see John Howard joining in on the singalong or face painting.
Secondly, does this mean AN drivers won't even get into the RAAF???
Firstly, I can't see John Howard joining in on the singalong or face painting.
Secondly, does this mean AN drivers won't even get into the RAAF???
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What is more concerning is the fact that the taxpayer will be footing the bill for RAAF wages, and Virgin gets the tech crew for free (at our expense). Therefore they are gaining a competitive edge over its rivals. This is scandalous!
Not the first time an airline has trained RAAF pilots. It happened back in 1978 ish when the RAAF first bought B707s, QANTAS did all the training. Only difference is that the RAAF pilots didn't get to fly on line with QANTAS at the time. That happened later on when most of them were posted or resigned. 
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Buster,
>>>Secondly, does this mean AN drivers won't even get into the RAAF???<<<
What on earth does this mean? Are you inferring that ex-AN drivers would just get picked up by the RAAF as if it were another airline, and go straight into flying?
>>>Secondly, does this mean AN drivers won't even get into the RAAF???<<<
What on earth does this mean? Are you inferring that ex-AN drivers would just get picked up by the RAAF as if it were another airline, and go straight into flying?
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What a joke.
An airline which has no simulators, no formal endorsement program, limited operational experience and limited crew experience is now training pilots for the RAAF.
To carry the Prime Minister no less.
On what basis was this contract awarded, and please don't tell me it was price.
What a joke.
An airline which has no simulators, no formal endorsement program, limited operational experience and limited crew experience is now training pilots for the RAAF.
To carry the Prime Minister no less.
On what basis was this contract awarded, and please don't tell me it was price.
What a joke.
Nunc est bibendum
Spoke to a Falcon driver in Pearce last week and he reckoned that the RAAF approached QF and QF said it will cost $X.
Ronnie RAAF approached VB who said, 'sure, why not', for nicks (or so he believed!)
Ronnie RAAF approached VB who said, 'sure, why not', for nicks (or so he believed!)
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Longjohn,
Perhaps you would like to quote some of those well guarded statistics you have regarding VB's lack of operational experience and lack of crew experience. I fly with pilots who have more 737 experience than I have total time and who have been flying for 20 -25 years. Assuming you are ex AN of currently at QF am I to surmise from your dribble that should you, I say SHOULD you come to work at VB you to would become instantly inexperienced with no operational knowledge of this business? Bite me dude.
Perhaps you would like to quote some of those well guarded statistics you have regarding VB's lack of operational experience and lack of crew experience. I fly with pilots who have more 737 experience than I have total time and who have been flying for 20 -25 years. Assuming you are ex AN of currently at QF am I to surmise from your dribble that should you, I say SHOULD you come to work at VB you to would become instantly inexperienced with no operational knowledge of this business? Bite me dude.
Last edited by sprucegoose; 24th Apr 2002 at 01:57.
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IS this really "Training", or are they just getting experience flying the aircraft?
I understood that the guys did a type conversion in the US, and the aim of this was to let them get some experience in the jet while they wait for the new jets to be delivered for use.
If that is the situation, what's the hassle?
I understood that the guys did a type conversion in the US, and the aim of this was to let them get some experience in the jet while they wait for the new jets to be delivered for use.
If that is the situation, what's the hassle?
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Virgin- RAAF
Longjohn.
I don.t want to knock people who lack experience or knowledge of the airline training system. I would just hope that you are enlightened by my post.
I did my DC9 endorsement training with Hawaiian airlines. as at the time no one at Ansett had the experience, later I became a training captain on type.
I did my B727 simulator and endorsement training with Ansett as at the time we had been operating the type for some time and had our own simulator and experienced training captains.
I did my B767 engineering at Ansett followed by the first B767 simulator at Boeing Seattle. We returned to Australia with Boeing training captains and they remained with the airline until a sufficient number of Ansett people were sufficiently experienced on type to take over the training roll. They returned a year later to audit our progress and rectify any problems we may have had.
At the same time we were able to feed them with our technical knowledge and operational experience. to the advantage of the whole B767 community.
Now to answer your questions.
The Ansett simulator is still operating profitably because of the business it gets from other airlines who do not have their own.
Its not necessary to own a simulator to run an airline, you just need access to one. When you have sufficient a/c of the one type it may be economical to buy your own.
Endorsement.
Engineering is either done in house or at a contractor.
Simulator. 12- 4 hour sessions resulting in a type endorsement
recognised by CASA. This can be in house or at a recognised contractor. My son did his at Qantas [ prefered by BJ] others have gone to the US.
Next is line training and this is what the RAAF pilots are doing with Virgin Blue.
You take a recently endorsed pilot, licenced by CASA and give him
sufficient operational line training as a captain or f/o to satisfy the standards manager of the appropriate airline. In this case the RAAF.
Experience.
Given the
"relative" low experience of the RAAF pilots, exposure to the Virgin training captains can only be beneficial.
I would think that most Virgin training captains would
have approximately 20 years domestic experience and 10 years international, with many years in the training roll.
I do believe the PM will be well catered for.
I don.t want to knock people who lack experience or knowledge of the airline training system. I would just hope that you are enlightened by my post.
I did my DC9 endorsement training with Hawaiian airlines. as at the time no one at Ansett had the experience, later I became a training captain on type.
I did my B727 simulator and endorsement training with Ansett as at the time we had been operating the type for some time and had our own simulator and experienced training captains.
I did my B767 engineering at Ansett followed by the first B767 simulator at Boeing Seattle. We returned to Australia with Boeing training captains and they remained with the airline until a sufficient number of Ansett people were sufficiently experienced on type to take over the training roll. They returned a year later to audit our progress and rectify any problems we may have had.
At the same time we were able to feed them with our technical knowledge and operational experience. to the advantage of the whole B767 community.
Now to answer your questions.
The Ansett simulator is still operating profitably because of the business it gets from other airlines who do not have their own.
Its not necessary to own a simulator to run an airline, you just need access to one. When you have sufficient a/c of the one type it may be economical to buy your own.
Endorsement.
Engineering is either done in house or at a contractor.
Simulator. 12- 4 hour sessions resulting in a type endorsement
recognised by CASA. This can be in house or at a recognised contractor. My son did his at Qantas [ prefered by BJ] others have gone to the US.
Next is line training and this is what the RAAF pilots are doing with Virgin Blue.
You take a recently endorsed pilot, licenced by CASA and give him
sufficient operational line training as a captain or f/o to satisfy the standards manager of the appropriate airline. In this case the RAAF.
Experience.
Given the
"relative" low experience of the RAAF pilots, exposure to the Virgin training captains can only be beneficial.
I would think that most Virgin training captains would
have approximately 20 years domestic experience and 10 years international, with many years in the training roll.
I do believe the PM will be well catered for.
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This is my first post (been an interested observer for years), so here goes.
glastar may have raised an interesting point - that of CASA licensing. It is my understanding that the awarding of RAAF wings does not automatically confer on the recipient a civil licence of any description. Therefore, are RAAF pilots permitted to pole a civil aircraft without having taken the appropriate examinations (especially if we are talking training in conjunction with revenue operations - do DJ have enough aircraft to have spares available for training flights?).
Additionally, I believe that the BBJs that the RAAF will operate are to remain on the civil register and be maintained using a civilian system of maintenance to maximise resale value for the leasing agent. Any ideas how the RAAF is planning to overcome this hurdle?
glastar may have raised an interesting point - that of CASA licensing. It is my understanding that the awarding of RAAF wings does not automatically confer on the recipient a civil licence of any description. Therefore, are RAAF pilots permitted to pole a civil aircraft without having taken the appropriate examinations (especially if we are talking training in conjunction with revenue operations - do DJ have enough aircraft to have spares available for training flights?).
Additionally, I believe that the BBJs that the RAAF will operate are to remain on the civil register and be maintained using a civilian system of maintenance to maximise resale value for the leasing agent. Any ideas how the RAAF is planning to overcome this hurdle?
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ndbfinal,
As a matter of fact when guys get their RAAF wings they have done more than enough training to get a PPL from CASA. Once they have completed their operational conversion, whatever the type they are posted to, they are then entitled to a CPL from CASA. One of the problems with the RAAF training and getting recognition from the civies is that the RAAF doesn't spell out exactly what they do in their training syllabus (to CASA) and therefore CASA won't sign off on things like IRTs etc or give guys an equivalent licence to the amount of training or their ability, straight away, but the training is actually extremely thorough and of a lot higher standard than that which you could pay for anywhere. You'll find that a guy who gets awarded his RAAF wings is well and truely capable of flying Commercially.
You will find that the guys from 33 & 34 SQN probably all have done their ATPL exams as well. So as for not being suitably qualified I believe you are off the mark. Also, the RAAF has operated numerous aircraft which are left on the civil register, eg. the Kingairs currently at 32SQN.
Hope that clears it up.
TW.
As a matter of fact when guys get their RAAF wings they have done more than enough training to get a PPL from CASA. Once they have completed their operational conversion, whatever the type they are posted to, they are then entitled to a CPL from CASA. One of the problems with the RAAF training and getting recognition from the civies is that the RAAF doesn't spell out exactly what they do in their training syllabus (to CASA) and therefore CASA won't sign off on things like IRTs etc or give guys an equivalent licence to the amount of training or their ability, straight away, but the training is actually extremely thorough and of a lot higher standard than that which you could pay for anywhere. You'll find that a guy who gets awarded his RAAF wings is well and truely capable of flying Commercially.
You will find that the guys from 33 & 34 SQN probably all have done their ATPL exams as well. So as for not being suitably qualified I believe you are off the mark. Also, the RAAF has operated numerous aircraft which are left on the civil register, eg. the Kingairs currently at 32SQN.
Hope that clears it up.
TW.
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Tumble_weed,
Sorry, perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I was not referring to ability of RAAF pilots or the quality of their training. I'm ex-RAAF (ATC) and having spent two years at Pearce, saw enough circuits, turnbacks, PFLs and limited panel approaches to have gotten the gist!
My question related purely to how the RAAF (not the individual pilot) manages the licensing issue. Is a CPL (or ATPL) required to operate the equipment? IF so, does Ronnie pay for the guys and gals to acquire the licence? Do they have an exemption?
Most importantly, if they do have an exemption does this apply carte-blanche to ALL aircraft of the type or just those undertaking RAAF operations?
While I am quite sure that the pilots at 33 and 34 SQN may have their commercial licences, I am equally sure that this is not an operational requirement!
Sorry, perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I was not referring to ability of RAAF pilots or the quality of their training. I'm ex-RAAF (ATC) and having spent two years at Pearce, saw enough circuits, turnbacks, PFLs and limited panel approaches to have gotten the gist!
My question related purely to how the RAAF (not the individual pilot) manages the licensing issue. Is a CPL (or ATPL) required to operate the equipment? IF so, does Ronnie pay for the guys and gals to acquire the licence? Do they have an exemption?
Most importantly, if they do have an exemption does this apply carte-blanche to ALL aircraft of the type or just those undertaking RAAF operations?
While I am quite sure that the pilots at 33 and 34 SQN may have their commercial licences, I am equally sure that this is not an operational requirement!
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I would have imagined that ATPL is required - since they are operating on an RPT service.
I'm sure Ronnie has come thorugh with an ATPL for the lads (for which I am sure they would be very grateful!) It would be easier to organise an ATPL than it would be to organise an exemption!
Of course, speaking completely without the benefit of actual knowledge here!
I'm sure Ronnie has come thorugh with an ATPL for the lads (for which I am sure they would be very grateful!) It would be easier to organise an ATPL than it would be to organise an exemption!
Of course, speaking completely without the benefit of actual knowledge here!
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34 SQN have a unique requirement when it come to VIP command in that in order to have a VIP command a pilot has to have a B Cat command. Briefly, when a pilot comes off conversion he has either a D Cat copilots rating (if he is straight off pilot's course) or, if he has significant previous experience he may have a D or C Cat Command (dependant upon previous experience).
In order for this pilot to get a B Cat command in order to act as a VIP captain he/she would have to gain a pre-requisite number of command and total hours on type. In a herc squadron this may not even happen in the first tour on type regardless of previous experience.
Without knowing the specifics involved with this situation I would suggest the RAAF see flying with DJ as the ideal way for these pilots to gain experience on that particular aircraft to gain the required B Cat command.
Another point to note is that the pilots posted to fly this latest and greatest thing would have to have at least 2 and probably more likely 3 tours on heavy multi engined aircraft, most likely are QFI's and probably have at least one tour on 707s behind them.
Another point, the 32 SQN B200's are on the military register, have been for over 2 years. The Army still have theirs on the civil register I believe. On that point I also seem to recall the Army placing some of their pilots with the RFDS when they first began introducing the B200 in order to gain some experience on the aircraft.
As difficult as it is for me to believe, I think the RAAF may have actually made a good decision with the DJ placement. Seems to be a win win for all parties.
In order for this pilot to get a B Cat command in order to act as a VIP captain he/she would have to gain a pre-requisite number of command and total hours on type. In a herc squadron this may not even happen in the first tour on type regardless of previous experience.
Without knowing the specifics involved with this situation I would suggest the RAAF see flying with DJ as the ideal way for these pilots to gain experience on that particular aircraft to gain the required B Cat command.
Another point to note is that the pilots posted to fly this latest and greatest thing would have to have at least 2 and probably more likely 3 tours on heavy multi engined aircraft, most likely are QFI's and probably have at least one tour on 707s behind them.
Another point, the 32 SQN B200's are on the military register, have been for over 2 years. The Army still have theirs on the civil register I believe. On that point I also seem to recall the Army placing some of their pilots with the RFDS when they first began introducing the B200 in order to gain some experience on the aircraft.
As difficult as it is for me to believe, I think the RAAF may have actually made a good decision with the DJ placement. Seems to be a win win for all parties.
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If 34 SQN are running their operations like any other Civi registered Aircraft operations in the RAAF, all pilots would be paid to do the ATPL subjects (if they dont already have them).
So does this mean we may be seing a bunch of ex RAAFies flying for DJ as soon as any aplicable ROSO is paid back??
So does this mean we may be seing a bunch of ex RAAFies flying for DJ as soon as any aplicable ROSO is paid back??