'89 12 Year Anniversary
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: OZ
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
'89 12 Year Anniversary
As no one else as made this post yet , the question should be asked "Has the industry improved for better or worse"? I am sure that there will be the usual '89 bashers and those who get bored with '89 , but we all have to ask ourselves the question! Over to you all!
[ 25 August 2001: Message edited by: Capt OverUnder ]
[ 25 August 2001: Message edited by: Capt OverUnder ]
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Dunnunda & Godzone
Age: 74
Posts: 4,275
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just thought I'd get in here at the off.
Capt Overunder asks an interesting question to which we all have interesting answers from both sides.
This thread can be interesting and enlightening or not. Please help me keep me the pucker factor below 10 at least.
Capt Overunder asks an interesting question to which we all have interesting answers from both sides.
This thread can be interesting and enlightening or not. Please help me keep me the pucker factor below 10 at least.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UAE
Age: 62
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You could ask what the effects on the controllers and FSO's at the time was....I was in Rocky at the time and it was mayhem...
I don't have an axe to grind, so for a change, can you guys not slag each other off?
None of my business of course...
I don't have an axe to grind, so for a change, can you guys not slag each other off?
None of my business of course...
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
And how about also considering the question, "Have pilots` conditions in Australia improved or declined since then?". Consider individual contracts, pilot salaries, and pilot representation with the employer, as starters.
I reckon the 250 kts below 10,000` is a definite DEGRADATION and has added untold extra cost to the owner/operators` fees because of the increased flight times - this of course flows on to training, aircraft hire, and pax ticket costs.
I reckon the 250 kts below 10,000` is a definite DEGRADATION and has added untold extra cost to the owner/operators` fees because of the increased flight times - this of course flows on to training, aircraft hire, and pax ticket costs.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: australia
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
deleted by W
roo2
The option to participate or not, read or not read threads is entirely yours.
The subject is clear to anybody entering the thread.
The question was "Has the industry improved for better or worse"?
Not how you personally feel.
[ 24 August 2001: Message edited by: Woomera ]
roo2
The option to participate or not, read or not read threads is entirely yours.
The subject is clear to anybody entering the thread.
The question was "Has the industry improved for better or worse"?
Not how you personally feel.
[ 24 August 2001: Message edited by: Woomera ]
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: On the way to somewhere better.
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wasn't aware that the 250kts below 10 000' was a result of THAT Incident (no disrespect meant). I suppose it doesn't matter because it doesn't affect me anyway (yet 
) I was just curious as to what in particular brought the rule on?
Please excuse my ignorance, as I was only 8 at the time.
) I was just curious as to what in particular brought the rule on?Please excuse my ignorance, as I was only 8 at the time.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,451
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ican'tcomment on this, as I'm one of the many who has no first hand experience of the Australian Aviation industry since that fateful day.
My only touch with it is what I read here and the steady flow of yonger Australian pilots I see moving overseas to take up employment. However, I don't believe that is any real indication of the state of the insustry - there were plenty who voted with their feet pre-89, be it for tax relief, faster promotion, or to strap themselves to a bigger jet.
I hope this one can stay unemotive, because I'd be interested to hear some opinions from people who are there. I think the most interesting opinions will probabl come, not from pilots soing 'mainline' flying for the Big Two, but from those outside the main airlines. From what I read here and from what's been said to me over the odd beer, they may be the ones with most to offer to this thread.
My only touch with it is what I read here and the steady flow of yonger Australian pilots I see moving overseas to take up employment. However, I don't believe that is any real indication of the state of the insustry - there were plenty who voted with their feet pre-89, be it for tax relief, faster promotion, or to strap themselves to a bigger jet.
I hope this one can stay unemotive, because I'd be interested to hear some opinions from people who are there. I think the most interesting opinions will probabl come, not from pilots soing 'mainline' flying for the Big Two, but from those outside the main airlines. From what I read here and from what's been said to me over the odd beer, they may be the ones with most to offer to this thread.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: oz
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can we please hear from one of the so called "scabs" how difficult it has been to live on a $200k plus salary the last 12 years and how they have adjusted to not being liked anymore.
Rather like Skase I would imagine.
Rather like Skase I would imagine.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Melbourne Australia
Age: 71
Posts: 21
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As an '89er who left my home, the state of the industry in Oz is of little concern to me personally. Conditions for pilots appear to be heading where I have been for years.
This is nothing to fear as long as you are able to keep yourself ahead of the game. As a contract pilot who has been employed continuously since those times, change has been good for me.
As the current Cathay dispute demonstrates , pilot conditions seem to be under attack from unreasonable airline managements in a lot of countries.
I still have friends at home who are involved in aviation so I wish all pilot groups success in their endeavours. Keep smiling !!
This is nothing to fear as long as you are able to keep yourself ahead of the game. As a contract pilot who has been employed continuously since those times, change has been good for me.
As the current Cathay dispute demonstrates , pilot conditions seem to be under attack from unreasonable airline managements in a lot of countries.
I still have friends at home who are involved in aviation so I wish all pilot groups success in their endeavours. Keep smiling !!
Last edited by Established; 22nd Jan 2006 at 13:51.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Melbourne Australia
Age: 71
Posts: 21
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Noodle - maybe you mis-understand my post. Most of my colleauges who have continued in the industry "got over it " a long time ago. Whether you agree or not, for those involved, on both sides of the fence, 89 was a life changing event.
When you've been out of your country for 12 years you don't forget. Keep smiling !!
When you've been out of your country for 12 years you don't forget. Keep smiling !!
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Abeam Alice Springs
Posts: 1,109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One could easily ask if the industry has changed much over the last 10, 20 or 30 years...?
Certainly there has been change, much of it brought about by technology, wizz-bang systems and lots of buttons to push.
Pay and conditions have changed, but at the end of the day you take what you are happy with or the best available or you go somewhere else.
Training is certaily nowhere as good as it used to be and it shows, right thru from GA to airlines.
DCA/DoT/CAA/CASA/Airservices have all changed. Bring back DCA I say, but those days have long gone!
Certainly there has been change, much of it brought about by technology, wizz-bang systems and lots of buttons to push.
Pay and conditions have changed, but at the end of the day you take what you are happy with or the best available or you go somewhere else.
Training is certaily nowhere as good as it used to be and it shows, right thru from GA to airlines.
DCA/DoT/CAA/CASA/Airservices have all changed. Bring back DCA I say, but those days have long gone!
Don Quixote Impersonator
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Australia
Age: 77
Posts: 3,403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
triadic
I suspect you would agree with me when I say that I never ever thought in my wildest dreams that I would say "geez I wish the DCA were still around".
edited for UBB code dumbosity
[ 25 August 2001: Message edited by: gaunty ]
I suspect you would agree with me when I say that I never ever thought in my wildest dreams that I would say "geez I wish the DCA were still around".
edited for UBB code dumbosity
[ 25 August 2001: Message edited by: gaunty ]
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As someone who had just a bare commercial licence when the big day happened I would think that besides the brethern that were directly afected ( and we would be mostly aware who they may be) , a lot has changed in 12 years. Hours required to fly ( as part of your employment) has changed as has the equiphment to fly from regional to major airline( except for AN ). Lifestyles have changed as well as opportunities. When I started the only option was either AN or Qantas. Now there are so many more options. You are either Lifestyle or career orientated ( and lets face it we would all like a 777 command after a couple of years in the desert!) the end result is of your choosing. I know that 89 dredges up a lot of unpleasant thoughts for many ppruners but command decisions are just that. Que sera sera
As for conspiracy theories ... Next as I don't think any Federal agency is that far advanced..
As for conspiracy theories ... Next as I don't think any Federal agency is that far advanced..
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: OZ
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I started this topic on 24/8/01 since I feel that this should always be a day of reflection for all involved in the aviation industry in OZ. 1989 should be learned from by all in our industry and not swept under the carpet! Please keep responses relevant to the topic. Thanks
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: HK
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The management in Australia rub their hands together everytime Pilots go at each other.
We (Pilots) have become easy victims for the degradation of our terms and conditions because of what happened 12 years ago.
Why continue to fight each other.
Yes it was a shock what happened to all of us in 89.
If we could understand the pressure brought upon all of us by Mr Abeles and our dear PM: Then vent our anger towards Hawke and our letters to members of parliment we could redirect the hatred and mistrust, rebuild the bridges between all Pilots then make an effort to improve the conditions of all aviators.
In 12 years there has become a huge divide in salaries between Airlines, the conditions have deteriated to long duty hours, poor rostering and an attitude from the companies..."If you don't like it then leave"
If all Pilots could find a way to forgive then we would wrest control of our destiny from the companies.
If AIPA, AFAP and APA pooled their resources the terms and conditions of all Pilots would improve, GA would be stable and safer with compensation from the Higher salary earners, and we could also be the catalyst to fix up CASA and the Australian aviation system.
We (Pilots) have become easy victims for the degradation of our terms and conditions because of what happened 12 years ago.
Why continue to fight each other.
Yes it was a shock what happened to all of us in 89.
If we could understand the pressure brought upon all of us by Mr Abeles and our dear PM: Then vent our anger towards Hawke and our letters to members of parliment we could redirect the hatred and mistrust, rebuild the bridges between all Pilots then make an effort to improve the conditions of all aviators.
In 12 years there has become a huge divide in salaries between Airlines, the conditions have deteriated to long duty hours, poor rostering and an attitude from the companies..."If you don't like it then leave"
If all Pilots could find a way to forgive then we would wrest control of our destiny from the companies.
If AIPA, AFAP and APA pooled their resources the terms and conditions of all Pilots would improve, GA would be stable and safer with compensation from the Higher salary earners, and we could also be the catalyst to fix up CASA and the Australian aviation system.
Join Date: Feb 1998
Location: Formerly of Nam
Posts: 1,595
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Le Pen thats a bit idealistic. Nothing can realy start until the main protaginists are dead and rotting. A step in the right direction started when the fat bastard began his slow conversion to worm sh!t. Three more to go.
As for me there is no way Ill have anything to do with yellow-bellied scabs nor will I EVER pay one red cent in bloodey Oz taxes ever again. Not after the way it was used in 89.
As for me there is no way Ill have anything to do with yellow-bellied scabs nor will I EVER pay one red cent in bloodey Oz taxes ever again. Not after the way it was used in 89.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
In fact LP, as much as 1989 was - without any shadow of a doubt - a milestone in Australian aviation industrial relations, it could in NO WAY be touted as a success for the airline companies involved.
Let's look at the FACTS:
Of all of the ORIGINAL pilots who entered the dispute ONLY 22% returned - the rest of those stole the slots necessary to get the two majors up and running were made up mainly of IMPORTS, eg. Canadians, Americans, British, New Zealanders, Jugoslav, Hungarian, French, and a few Australians who had either previously been unacceptable, or had left the airlines on a "golden handshake" (and blown their lot), or for medical reasons;
At this time, only ANSETT remains in her severely debilitated condition. There were four airlines that were around in 1989 that were involved, IPEC, EAST-WEST, AUSTRALIAN, and ANSETT. IPEC and East-West (an Ansett subsidiary that was sold off and then shut down), were the two "minor" players although they both operated jet equipment and had a niche in the freight and pax markets of Australiua. Australian (previously and most fondly remembered by its employees as TAA) was the Government owned domestic competitor of Ansett - the month-to-month pax loadings generally ran 50/50, with a split of usually no more than 3 or 4%....which was enough to spur the losing airline's employees into overdrive to try to achieve market domination. It was healthy, friendly competition!
The conditions that Ansett and Australian (TAA) were FORCED to offer returnees/new recruits, FAR exceeded those under which the current pilots were working - EXCEPT that new pilot employees would NOT be permitted to nominate the representative of his choice in any dealing with the company, and would unilaterally accept changes to his contract made at the compay's will!
Personally speaking, I would like Aussie pilots to do some DEEP research into the "befores" and "afters" of that fateful year, and see for themselves that the airlines did NOT enjoy a victory. Although almost 80% of the pilots never got to work back in Australia again, 3 out of 4 of the airlines involved went down the tube (Australian would have, had it not been absorbed by QANTAS)....and Ansett has been teetering on the brink for so long now, that perhaps the call of T...I...M....B.....E.....R might not be out of order!
For airlines such as Cathay, to base their "battle plan" on Australia 1989, is a folly that has been perpetuated groundlessly.
Let's look at the FACTS:
Of all of the ORIGINAL pilots who entered the dispute ONLY 22% returned - the rest of those stole the slots necessary to get the two majors up and running were made up mainly of IMPORTS, eg. Canadians, Americans, British, New Zealanders, Jugoslav, Hungarian, French, and a few Australians who had either previously been unacceptable, or had left the airlines on a "golden handshake" (and blown their lot), or for medical reasons;
At this time, only ANSETT remains in her severely debilitated condition. There were four airlines that were around in 1989 that were involved, IPEC, EAST-WEST, AUSTRALIAN, and ANSETT. IPEC and East-West (an Ansett subsidiary that was sold off and then shut down), were the two "minor" players although they both operated jet equipment and had a niche in the freight and pax markets of Australiua. Australian (previously and most fondly remembered by its employees as TAA) was the Government owned domestic competitor of Ansett - the month-to-month pax loadings generally ran 50/50, with a split of usually no more than 3 or 4%....which was enough to spur the losing airline's employees into overdrive to try to achieve market domination. It was healthy, friendly competition!
The conditions that Ansett and Australian (TAA) were FORCED to offer returnees/new recruits, FAR exceeded those under which the current pilots were working - EXCEPT that new pilot employees would NOT be permitted to nominate the representative of his choice in any dealing with the company, and would unilaterally accept changes to his contract made at the compay's will!
Personally speaking, I would like Aussie pilots to do some DEEP research into the "befores" and "afters" of that fateful year, and see for themselves that the airlines did NOT enjoy a victory. Although almost 80% of the pilots never got to work back in Australia again, 3 out of 4 of the airlines involved went down the tube (Australian would have, had it not been absorbed by QANTAS)....and Ansett has been teetering on the brink for so long now, that perhaps the call of T...I...M....B.....E.....R might not be out of order!
For airlines such as Cathay, to base their "battle plan" on Australia 1989, is a folly that has been perpetuated groundlessly.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Well, pooling resources of the AIPA, AFAP, APA.
Maybe a short look at history.
The AFAP represented all airline pilots.
Then Qantas pilots thought they could do better on their own - so the AIPA was born.
Then along came '89. The scabs thought they could do better on their own. - so the APA was born.
All of that overlooked the basic tenet of industrial muscle - strength through unity.
Amazing is in not?
Maybe a short look at history.
The AFAP represented all airline pilots.
Then Qantas pilots thought they could do better on their own - so the AIPA was born.
Then along came '89. The scabs thought they could do better on their own. - so the APA was born.
All of that overlooked the basic tenet of industrial muscle - strength through unity.
Amazing is in not?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: ex Hong Kong
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As an airline pilot who left Australia as a result of the 89 dispute, and has never flown in Auastralia since (thankfully) - I think one area has changed.
The AFAP was an umbrella organisation that represented GA pilots as well as airline pilots. It still does of course but with one distinct difference. There is a dearth of people, expertise and money at the 'top end' of the organisation.
Remember that prior to 89, the majority of AFAP members were GA pilots. However, the VAST majority of the money came from the airline pilots. And, the and even VASTER majority of the time and expertise came from the airline pilots.
As a GA pilot in Darwin I once had need of some help. It was an Ansett 727 Captain, who,in his own time, came to Darwin and gave me the help I needed. I subsequently saw this 'big brother' assistance offered by airline pilots to GA pilots many times.
Even at the time (89) I thought one of the saddest aspects of the dispute was how it decimated the AFAP which would thus have a flow-on effect to the GA pilots who needed the AFAP most. Correspondingly, one of the most disgraceful acts of the scabs was that they selfishly closed the door behind themselves. They did not try to set up anything other than a union for themselves. The least they could have done was take a more generous view of the world and try to give something back to the most needy members of our pilot fraternity. Instead they cherry-picked the rich and resourceful end of the industry and locked-out the people who were now trying to survive in the inhospitable arena of Australian GA.
This is, in my opinion the ultimate reason why I wish a pox on the scabs.
So, to return to the thread at hand. Conditions of employment have deteriorated in Australian GA as a result of the weakening of the AFAP.
The AFAP was an umbrella organisation that represented GA pilots as well as airline pilots. It still does of course but with one distinct difference. There is a dearth of people, expertise and money at the 'top end' of the organisation.
Remember that prior to 89, the majority of AFAP members were GA pilots. However, the VAST majority of the money came from the airline pilots. And, the and even VASTER majority of the time and expertise came from the airline pilots.
As a GA pilot in Darwin I once had need of some help. It was an Ansett 727 Captain, who,in his own time, came to Darwin and gave me the help I needed. I subsequently saw this 'big brother' assistance offered by airline pilots to GA pilots many times.
Even at the time (89) I thought one of the saddest aspects of the dispute was how it decimated the AFAP which would thus have a flow-on effect to the GA pilots who needed the AFAP most. Correspondingly, one of the most disgraceful acts of the scabs was that they selfishly closed the door behind themselves. They did not try to set up anything other than a union for themselves. The least they could have done was take a more generous view of the world and try to give something back to the most needy members of our pilot fraternity. Instead they cherry-picked the rich and resourceful end of the industry and locked-out the people who were now trying to survive in the inhospitable arena of Australian GA.
This is, in my opinion the ultimate reason why I wish a pox on the scabs.
So, to return to the thread at hand. Conditions of employment have deteriorated in Australian GA as a result of the weakening of the AFAP.