Flightwatch: the disgrace continues
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Flightwatch: the disgrace continues
at about 1330 today on 121.1 (Cairns Area).
All stations this is Brisbane Centre. Flightwatch on VHF is unavailable due to um er.. staffing levels. I will endeavour to assist with any requirements on this frequency. Significant delays will be experienced on HF.
This is a sad sad state of affairs. As pilots we know that it is not the fault of you guys and girls at the coal face, it is the system you are expected to work under.
What was the story today?
And is there any truth to the rumour that stated that mobile phone callers to cancel SAR were last priority? Is this due $$ to the 1800 number?
All stations this is Brisbane Centre. Flightwatch on VHF is unavailable due to um er.. staffing levels. I will endeavour to assist with any requirements on this frequency. Significant delays will be experienced on HF.
This is a sad sad state of affairs. As pilots we know that it is not the fault of you guys and girls at the coal face, it is the system you are expected to work under.
What was the story today?
And is there any truth to the rumour that stated that mobile phone callers to cancel SAR were last priority? Is this due $$ to the 1800 number?
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For all the above, a big big thank you to Richard, former head of CASA (twice) who set this whole thing up. Remember, AN would still be operating today if you fools and tossers had allowed him to complete his mission!!
Good topic for comment.
And the recent switch of Dectalk from the convenient and efficient service to the paycard access only bull---- system which means you have to make two calls, one to get your weather, and then another to submit your plan once completed.
Yes we know the push is towards utilising NAIPS, but think about it Airservices Aust., we are not all sitting on our arses in an office full of NAIPS terminals at the ready.
Tell me which scenario is logistically simpler:
Scenario A. Early flight required to Melbourne from Bendigo. Wake up early, careful not to wake the kids, grab the phone, jot down weather off Dectalk in a back room, finish off plan and phone it through on the way to the airport. Easy.
Scenario B. Same early flight. The one phone socket in the house requires the dragging of a connection cable through half the house. Starting up the computer takes awhile and Oh dear it has decided to crash. Re boot required -minutes passing by and eventually get into NAIPS, but isn't it slow this morning! Read TAFs etc and wouldn't it be nice to print them off, but if I do I have to connect the printer and it will make a hell of a sound guaranteeing to wake up those kids. So I jot down the weather that I could have jotted down off DECTALK while on the crapper half an hour ago. Already running late do I spend another 15-20 minutes duplicating my hand written flight plan onto NAIPS or say stuff it have to go, could have driven half way to Melbourne by now so I'll phone through my plan by phone on the way to the airport.
Where is the logic? Why cannot DECTALK simply be a return charged call on your phone bill?
Seems the system is being directed by propeller heads, not propeller drivers
And the recent switch of Dectalk from the convenient and efficient service to the paycard access only bull---- system which means you have to make two calls, one to get your weather, and then another to submit your plan once completed.
Yes we know the push is towards utilising NAIPS, but think about it Airservices Aust., we are not all sitting on our arses in an office full of NAIPS terminals at the ready.
Tell me which scenario is logistically simpler:
Scenario A. Early flight required to Melbourne from Bendigo. Wake up early, careful not to wake the kids, grab the phone, jot down weather off Dectalk in a back room, finish off plan and phone it through on the way to the airport. Easy.
Scenario B. Same early flight. The one phone socket in the house requires the dragging of a connection cable through half the house. Starting up the computer takes awhile and Oh dear it has decided to crash. Re boot required -minutes passing by and eventually get into NAIPS, but isn't it slow this morning! Read TAFs etc and wouldn't it be nice to print them off, but if I do I have to connect the printer and it will make a hell of a sound guaranteeing to wake up those kids. So I jot down the weather that I could have jotted down off DECTALK while on the crapper half an hour ago. Already running late do I spend another 15-20 minutes duplicating my hand written flight plan onto NAIPS or say stuff it have to go, could have driven half way to Melbourne by now so I'll phone through my plan by phone on the way to the airport.
Where is the logic? Why cannot DECTALK simply be a return charged call on your phone bill?
Seems the system is being directed by propeller heads, not propeller drivers
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I wonder if perhaps flightwatch do have a problem with some staff.
Had a big day earlier this week, 8 hours stick time, most of it with flightwatch on HF.Continuously asked to 'standby' at almost every contact, then another shift change or operator change, HF coms appeared to remain just as busy, but no more standby, very efficient and prompt response; didn't even have to request area QNH.
Had a big day earlier this week, 8 hours stick time, most of it with flightwatch on HF.Continuously asked to 'standby' at almost every contact, then another shift change or operator change, HF coms appeared to remain just as busy, but no more standby, very efficient and prompt response; didn't even have to request area QNH.
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and Stallie old fruit (no offence intended) ponder this - how many ATS centres are operating at various times when unable to obtain NOTAM briefings due variously NAIPS/internet down? Shouldn't happen but what do you say "everybody wait there and hang about a minute!"
LOAD - AIM - FIRE.
LOAD - AIM - FIRE.
This thread is music for my eyes. Where do I start? Helicopters are a useful tool primarily because they operate away from airports and fixed bases. But the new system is almost entirely designed to suit fixed base urban operations - accordingly, it does not suit hardly any helicopter operators I know.
I can't remember when I last landed in a hole in the trees and had access via the computer installation convientiently placed at the bottom of the nearest tree!! Oh - and now I can only activate and cancel SAR by telephone - well there is also mobile coverage and public telephones in every hole in the trees I have operated into!! Oh - and now I can easliy get a weather briefing - it is so simple to continually annoy your employer for more phone cards or go through your phone bill and individually bill him/her for the calls each month (especially because I now have so much time on my hands)!! Oh - it also now so easy to obtain area QNH, latest MET, NOTAMS, etc over the radio - all I have to do is climb to flight level nosebleed (where all helicopters operate) to get coverage with flightwatch. Lots of our customers love us to waste the 10 minutes of climb/descend flight time to achieve all these aims (only $200 or so in a light SE turbine). Oh - and while I am up there at FL nosebleed, I might get enough coverage to cancel SAR over the radio (if they will accept it) - well before I do the most dangerous part of the flight: the landing into a confined area. User pays? User pays heaps in bucks and safety!!!
About those flight planning phone calls, I count four:
1. Weather briefing.
2. Flight plan submission.
3. Check your flight plan has been recieved as required by AIP.
4. Call from briefing to fix your ICAO formatting.
And that brings me to my favourite - flight plans. Now I have to do two flight plans - one that I can use in flight, and one that I have to spend 40 mins burning through AIP to translate into ICAO. I love doing this. "But", I hear them say, "you can get a program that does it for you". Well, when they install those computer terminals in every hole in the trees, and when I can afford the software licencing for each machine......
I once asked Airservices at their promo meetings for the introduction of all this crap (or should I say: the withdrawal of a useful system), how many Airservices personnel are there that input flight plans into the new system. If memory serves, the answer was 14 or so. So I sez: "why dont you just teach those 14 how to use our pilot data and convert it into ICAO data so the the 40,000 pilots dont have to do two plans every time? Maybe teaching 14 Vs 40,000 to learn a whole new system is cost effective? Seeing as how the 14 are likely to have a computer, perhaps even buying them the software may help them do it automatically?"
Nope - it seems teaching 40,000 was the way to go.....................
Current situation: Very few helicopter operators I know of (fixed base offshore and EMS aside) use ANY of the services because almost none of it is practical given their work. Almost none use Censar. Few get any weather briefing. Almost none talk to flightwatch for QNH or weather info. It has really enhanced our operations, don't you think?
Mine helmet is now well and truly alight, I must retire imediately to the bar........
I can't remember when I last landed in a hole in the trees and had access via the computer installation convientiently placed at the bottom of the nearest tree!! Oh - and now I can only activate and cancel SAR by telephone - well there is also mobile coverage and public telephones in every hole in the trees I have operated into!! Oh - and now I can easliy get a weather briefing - it is so simple to continually annoy your employer for more phone cards or go through your phone bill and individually bill him/her for the calls each month (especially because I now have so much time on my hands)!! Oh - it also now so easy to obtain area QNH, latest MET, NOTAMS, etc over the radio - all I have to do is climb to flight level nosebleed (where all helicopters operate) to get coverage with flightwatch. Lots of our customers love us to waste the 10 minutes of climb/descend flight time to achieve all these aims (only $200 or so in a light SE turbine). Oh - and while I am up there at FL nosebleed, I might get enough coverage to cancel SAR over the radio (if they will accept it) - well before I do the most dangerous part of the flight: the landing into a confined area. User pays? User pays heaps in bucks and safety!!!
About those flight planning phone calls, I count four:
1. Weather briefing.
2. Flight plan submission.
3. Check your flight plan has been recieved as required by AIP.
4. Call from briefing to fix your ICAO formatting.
And that brings me to my favourite - flight plans. Now I have to do two flight plans - one that I can use in flight, and one that I have to spend 40 mins burning through AIP to translate into ICAO. I love doing this. "But", I hear them say, "you can get a program that does it for you". Well, when they install those computer terminals in every hole in the trees, and when I can afford the software licencing for each machine......
I once asked Airservices at their promo meetings for the introduction of all this crap (or should I say: the withdrawal of a useful system), how many Airservices personnel are there that input flight plans into the new system. If memory serves, the answer was 14 or so. So I sez: "why dont you just teach those 14 how to use our pilot data and convert it into ICAO data so the the 40,000 pilots dont have to do two plans every time? Maybe teaching 14 Vs 40,000 to learn a whole new system is cost effective? Seeing as how the 14 are likely to have a computer, perhaps even buying them the software may help them do it automatically?"
Nope - it seems teaching 40,000 was the way to go.....................
Current situation: Very few helicopter operators I know of (fixed base offshore and EMS aside) use ANY of the services because almost none of it is practical given their work. Almost none use Censar. Few get any weather briefing. Almost none talk to flightwatch for QNH or weather info. It has really enhanced our operations, don't you think?
Mine helmet is now well and truly alight, I must retire imediately to the bar........
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ex f111
Thats the dead set unvarnished truth.
Me likewise warning, and it will happen, but nobody is listening, well, until it happens anyway.
And they wont actually have to make contact for the lightie to go belly up either.
I have seen the odd dust trail on the ground way behind the low level fast mover.
Thats the dead set unvarnished truth.
Me likewise warning, and it will happen, but nobody is listening, well, until it happens anyway.
And they wont actually have to make contact for the lightie to go belly up either.
I have seen the odd dust trail on the ground way behind the low level fast mover.
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ftrplt,
Spotting an aircraft doing 500kts for collision avoidance is not "eye out the window stuff", it's more commonly known as "near impossible".
Your best chance is knowing where that aircraft is likely to be (via a functioning FIS), and avoiding that spot, or co-ordinating with them via radio, while you still have more than a millisecond to react.
And therein lies the problem.
Spotting an aircraft doing 500kts for collision avoidance is not "eye out the window stuff", it's more commonly known as "near impossible".
Your best chance is knowing where that aircraft is likely to be (via a functioning FIS), and avoiding that spot, or co-ordinating with them via radio, while you still have more than a millisecond to react.
And therein lies the problem.
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LACKOV - YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. A LJR at least gives you to opportunity to avoid the airspace. There's a very interesting video graphic reproduction of an actual mid-air which occurred in the States between two fast twins - one saw the other about 3 seconds before impact and his attempts to miss barely provided control surface deflection prior to that. The viewer could see by the countdown timer that with two fast twins and both looking for the other at the right spot reaction time is immaterial. If you're gonna hit you're gonna hit and you need every bit of information to aviod that opportunity. Combine this with hi-speed/low visual profile mil jets doing AVM and you gotta ask why not in MIL airspace???????? That is the reason for that airspace and any different is a flagrant disregard for safety.
Handing over.......
Handing over.......
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ftrplt with all of the respect in the world, I point out to you that the low level very fast military hardware driver aint got time to look out the window ...
Gaunty how the hell it hasn't happened as yet is totally beyond me, knowing what I know about such ops
Gaunty how the hell it hasn't happened as yet is totally beyond me, knowing what I know about such ops
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Lackov wrote:
In my experience, they are nocomm when on task, so I can't see how that works....But at least ATC makes a general broadcast to those who are listening 
or co-ordinating with them via radio, while you still have more than a millisecond to react.
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And then there is the station mustering dude who doesn't get the notams or read them if he does, doesn't talk (or want to talk) to anybody except the guys on the bikes, VHF truned down so he can hear the scratchy 2 way. HF? what's that, and doesn't get or want to get high enough to be able talk to Flightwatch, even if he had the patience to. "Just going to pop over here to check the mill, or that mob we saw around here yesterday."
No more the quick call to the local FS on the phone or radio.
Pops up out of the ravine/valley/soak/trees ........in front of or even close to a fast mover. If I was in the fast mover I think I'd rather not be looking out frankly, at least I'd die having fun 
I know, I know, there are some very profesional mustering dudes out there, but they are not all so.
edited to fix up some code.
[ 30 September 2001: Message edited by: gaunty ]
And then there is the station mustering dude who doesn't get the notams or read them if he does, doesn't talk (or want to talk) to anybody except the guys on the bikes, VHF truned down so he can hear the scratchy 2 way. HF? what's that, and doesn't get or want to get high enough to be able talk to Flightwatch, even if he had the patience to. "Just going to pop over here to check the mill, or that mob we saw around here yesterday."
No more the quick call to the local FS on the phone or radio.
Pops up out of the ravine/valley/soak/trees ........in front of or even close to a fast mover.
If I was in the fast mover I think I'd rather not be looking out frankly, at least I'd die having fun I know, I know, there are some very profesional mustering dudes out there, but they are not all so.
edited to fix up some code.
[ 30 September 2001: Message edited by: gaunty ]
Lackov, we dont expect the slow mover to see us, we hope its us that see you. The faster you go the narrower the arc you have to worry about in front!!
The Voice, I think I know what happens, thanks for the respectful contribution.
Gaunty, exactly.
The Voice, I think I know what happens, thanks for the respectful contribution.
Gaunty, exactly.