Jandakot Crash Trial
Bushy
I have rarely disagreed with anything you have posted on this site, but you are ignoring the simple fact that the aircraft was on take-off, at low level, with a substantial load and with obstacles in the flight path.
Yeah I've had a shut down at 5000' and flown it home... but that's completely different.
Yeah I've had a shut down at 5000' and flown it home... but that's completely different.
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Green Goblin
Unfortunately...???
Anyone flying a marginal twin should ALWAYS expect an engine failure and plan accordingly. The only reasonable plan is to put it down straight ahead, unless you can gain enough height and/or airspeed to ensure control.
If you want to be PIC, you have to accept responsibility for the lives of your pax, and how your actions affect them. If you aren't prepared to do that in a court of law, don't take the job, or join a union - not that it will necessarily help you.
If you get paid to fly pax, you have a duty of care, simple as that.
I'm sure he didn't plan on having an engine failure and when it happened, made a command decision and went with it unfortunatley not having the desired result.
Anyone flying a marginal twin should ALWAYS expect an engine failure and plan accordingly. The only reasonable plan is to put it down straight ahead, unless you can gain enough height and/or airspeed to ensure control.
If you want to be PIC, you have to accept responsibility for the lives of your pax, and how your actions affect them. If you aren't prepared to do that in a court of law, don't take the job, or join a union - not that it will necessarily help you.
If you get paid to fly pax, you have a duty of care, simple as that.
Green Goblin
Quote:
I'm sure he didn't plan on having an engine failure and when it happened, made a command decision and went with it unfortunatley not having the desired result.
Unfortunately...???
Anyone flying a marginal twin should ALWAYS expect an engine failure and plan accordingly. The only reasonable plan is to put it down straight ahead, unless you can gain enough height and/or airspeed to ensure control.
Quote:
I'm sure he didn't plan on having an engine failure and when it happened, made a command decision and went with it unfortunatley not having the desired result.
Unfortunately...???
Anyone flying a marginal twin should ALWAYS expect an engine failure and plan accordingly. The only reasonable plan is to put it down straight ahead, unless you can gain enough height and/or airspeed to ensure control.
What I meant to say or get across was everybody plans for an engine failure but does not expect it to happen, and when it does happen it can catch you by surprise! (especially during an important phase of flight) And may take a few seconds to gather your wits.
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To quote the great Bob Hoover..."your two best friends in an aircraft are airspeed and altitude" If you have neither and something goes wrong.. you are in trouble.
The most critical phase of flight for a light twin is when it leaves terra firma and raises its nose to the heavens. You have a good chance of survival if you put it down in a controlled crash but you have absolutely no chance in an uncontrolled one. There is so much to consider outside of your parrot pre take off emergency drill. Density altitude, wx,wind,tow,tora,obstacles,aircraft age and condition and most of all YOUR own limitations! etc etc etc. If you do decide to power up gear up flap up etc etc what r you going to do? fly straight ahead? do a circuit? left or right? box or oval? what altitude are you going to aim for before you commence the turn, what are you going to do if you hit blue line and its going downhill? if you can't answer these questions before you open the taps, well you certainly won't be able to when s**t hits the fan. I talk through experience, I chose to keep going, the aircraft had brand new engines, new paint, but was heavy (freight) it was night and i was facing a 100' hill not far from the end of the rwy. I was doing a lot of m/e training in those days and was very very current at the time. Believe me I had my heart in my mouth doing a 300' r/h circuit....away from the town but into the abyss. My knees took a full day to stop shaking.
The most critical phase of flight for a light twin is when it leaves terra firma and raises its nose to the heavens. You have a good chance of survival if you put it down in a controlled crash but you have absolutely no chance in an uncontrolled one. There is so much to consider outside of your parrot pre take off emergency drill. Density altitude, wx,wind,tow,tora,obstacles,aircraft age and condition and most of all YOUR own limitations! etc etc etc. If you do decide to power up gear up flap up etc etc what r you going to do? fly straight ahead? do a circuit? left or right? box or oval? what altitude are you going to aim for before you commence the turn, what are you going to do if you hit blue line and its going downhill? if you can't answer these questions before you open the taps, well you certainly won't be able to when s**t hits the fan. I talk through experience, I chose to keep going, the aircraft had brand new engines, new paint, but was heavy (freight) it was night and i was facing a 100' hill not far from the end of the rwy. I was doing a lot of m/e training in those days and was very very current at the time. Believe me I had my heart in my mouth doing a 300' r/h circuit....away from the town but into the abyss. My knees took a full day to stop shaking.
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Damn PA39, I've just had to change me knickers.
I hope that in a similar situation I'd be able to ignore the false security of the town lights (moth to the flame).
FRQ CB
I hope that in a similar situation I'd be able to ignore the false security of the town lights (moth to the flame).
FRQ CB
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recognize the difference
in reality the trial is not about whether the 'pilot go it right or not' it is about the law and the two are very different creatures. for a clear and unbiased understanding of what is happening in Perth I suggest the interested get their hands on and read "Just culture" by Sidney Dekker.
it is quite likely that the pilot will come out of this besmirched and sullied - but for that you cannot blame those who brought the action as it may be the only means by which they will achieve any compensation for injuries and loss.
if you read the book you will also realise that as an industry we do need to be vigilant if we are to retainany semblance of a 'just culture'.
it is quite likely that the pilot will come out of this besmirched and sullied - but for that you cannot blame those who brought the action as it may be the only means by which they will achieve any compensation for injuries and loss.
if you read the book you will also realise that as an industry we do need to be vigilant if we are to retainany semblance of a 'just culture'.
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This is a real court case with people's lives and repurations on the line - and the guy testifying obviously doesn't know what he is talking about.
Some expert.
Some expert.
Aside from having a qualification in AEng, he is a qualified Test Pilot who worked extensively on the delevopment and certification of the Nomad (no jokes thanks!).
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What I meant to say or get across was everybody plans for an engine failure but does not expect it to happen, and when it does happen it can catch you by surprise!
I see a lot of young guys going "yeah yeah, I get how to handle an engine failure, she'll be right", and then stuff it up completely when it actually happens. Most of them end up dead, and I have lost a few acquaintances to light twin accidents. You just have to be ready, all the time.
Many moons ago, when I was flying the F27, a sim instructor remarked to us (after my colleague stuffed up an engine failure on approach) that the F27 would never be certified under the current regulations of the time, as it was simply too marginal on one engine, especially at high weight/temp/density altitude. I reckon most light twins are worse than the F27 was... funny how we put the most inexperienced pilots into the most dangerous aircraft...
On the jet I fly, the worst things that happen if we lose one are that the ROC drops to 2000 fpm and the ball marches out from the centre a bit. Easy-peasy. Trim it and whack the autopilot in while we figure out where to go. But when I'm flying a light twin, I'm very twitchy until through 1000' and at least blueline +20kts. YMMV of course.
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I notice the ATSB report (Para 2.6 page 28) states:
The pilot reported that, during the accident flight, he initiated the turn from the runway heading because he was concerned about flight over residential areas and the high-tension powerlines ahead. Neither the pilot nor the aircraft operator’s chief pilot had considered the powerlines upwind from runway 24R as obstructions for the purpose of their pre-takeoff safety briefings.
I'm surprised that the powerlines were not considered as obstructions for the purpose of pre-flight safety briefings. I assume these briefings - being safety briefings - would include the EFATO scenario? I wonder if they are now considered to be obstructions?
Interesting how the mindset changes during an emergency.
Di
Last edited by Diatryma; 10th Aug 2009 at 06:06.
The powerlines are a reasonable distance from the upwind threshold (I think its over 3km?), but I suspect they look might close at 100' with one engine out.
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Jandakot Crash Trial
QSK:
Thanks for the email.
You mentioned Aids for single and multi engine visual flying cues. A system that worked for me was to look at the obstacle ( or cloud or lights ) and if you could see features beyond the one you are looking at, then you are at a height to clear it. It works day and night and used to keep me in beers on overnights
Tmb.
Thanks for the email.
You mentioned Aids for single and multi engine visual flying cues. A system that worked for me was to look at the obstacle ( or cloud or lights ) and if you could see features beyond the one you are looking at, then you are at a height to clear it. It works day and night and used to keep me in beers on overnights
Tmb.
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if you could see features beyond the one you are looking at, then you are at a height to clear it.
FRQ CB
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if you could see features beyond the one you are looking at, then you are at a height to clear it.
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This is probably one of the most accurate statements I have ever seen here
funny how we put the most inexperienced pilots into the most dangerous aircraft...
However in the case in point the pilot is a very experienced careful guy with good stick and rudder skills.
funny how we put the most inexperienced pilots into the most dangerous aircraft...
However in the case in point the pilot is a very experienced careful guy with good stick and rudder skills.
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Obstacle Clearance
Qoute:
if you could see features beyond the one you are looking at, then you are at a height to clear it.
Another way of thinking about it and it's very simple it comes from looking a the threshold on final approach.
If the obstacle is moving upwards in the front windscreen your going into it or in the case of powerlines under them, If the obstacle is constant your flying directly for it and if the obstacle is moving downwards in the windsreen you are flying over it, Clear of it!!
I'm sure anyone with a lowlevel endorsement will be able to shed light on how the technique is taught.
if you could see features beyond the one you are looking at, then you are at a height to clear it.
Another way of thinking about it and it's very simple it comes from looking a the threshold on final approach.
If the obstacle is moving upwards in the front windscreen your going into it or in the case of powerlines under them, If the obstacle is constant your flying directly for it and if the obstacle is moving downwards in the windsreen you are flying over it, Clear of it!!
I'm sure anyone with a lowlevel endorsement will be able to shed light on how the technique is taught.
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(funny how we put the most inexperienced pilots into the most dangerous aircraft...)
Only incompetent Chief Pilots do such stupid things. One should never get ones ambitions mixed up with ones ability.
Only incompetent Chief Pilots do such stupid things. One should never get ones ambitions mixed up with ones ability.
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Pilot 2/3 engineer 1/3
Judge finds pilot was negligent
Posted Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:49pm AEDT
Alec Penberthy was the pilot of the twin engine Cessna with five passengers which crashed seconds after take-off in 2003.
A WA Supreme Court Judge has found a pilot involved in a fatal plane crash six years ago, was negligent in his duty of care.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...11/2739724.htm
Di
Posted Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:49pm AEDT
Alec Penberthy was the pilot of the twin engine Cessna with five passengers which crashed seconds after take-off in 2003.
A WA Supreme Court Judge has found a pilot involved in a fatal plane crash six years ago, was negligent in his duty of care.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...11/2739724.htm
Di
Something missed by CASA in their surveillance of the operator would appear to be that they had a 'standard' flap setting for all takeoffs that was certainly not optimum for obstacle clearance. A bit of industry education would not have gone astray, as it is probable that neither the chief pilot or pilot on the day had specific understanding of the implications of using flap for takeoff with obstacles limiting. OK, so the info was in the AFM, but apparently the operator ignored it - possibly due lack of education. Yeah, I know, CASA is there to regulate, not educate.
In my short time operating the C404, I went to pains to educate pilots about the advantages of zero flap takeoffs whenever runway length permitted. This met with some resistance from the owner who thought it would wear the tyres out or damage the props or somesuch crap, and from some pilots "because it had never been done that way in the past and what would an ex-airline pilot know about light twins anyway?" Further, from the ATSB report :
In my short time operating the C404, I went to pains to educate pilots about the advantages of zero flap takeoffs whenever runway length permitted. This met with some resistance from the owner who thought it would wear the tyres out or damage the props or somesuch crap, and from some pilots "because it had never been done that way in the past and what would an ex-airline pilot know about light twins anyway?" Further, from the ATSB report :
"The investigation concluded that the pilot experienced an emergency situation, at a critical phase of flight, for which training in the aircraft had not been provided."
With no simulator, any engine-out training was likely done at light weights and with generous safety margins. This in itself gives pilots an unduly optimistic understanding of light twin capabilities. So how in all conscience can our so-called justice system lay blame on the unfortunate pilot faced with an impossible task not of his making?
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 13th Nov 2009 at 07:22.