Emergency Decision Making. A finite time
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Emergency Decision Making. A finite time
After recent accidents, there has been a lot of discussion about what the Flight Crew should have or should not have done, in the situation.
There is a finite time, to make the decision, which will depend on the height above ground that the upset occurs. This may be from a very few seconds, to a much longer time.
The following is from a post that I made in the past." A crew is expected to perform to the best of their ability when a problem occurs, either known or unknown. In the unknown case the crew have to attempt to control the aircraft flight path, so that they have 'Time" to solve the problem".
I sometimes wonder if some who post on PPrune, really know the above paragraph. It is great to sit at a computer and type an opinion ( often with hindsight), about what a crew should or should not have done.
As one who has experienced a Jet upset at a low height (about flare height), I can vouch for the very finite time that you have, to act.
Tmb
There is a finite time, to make the decision, which will depend on the height above ground that the upset occurs. This may be from a very few seconds, to a much longer time.
The following is from a post that I made in the past." A crew is expected to perform to the best of their ability when a problem occurs, either known or unknown. In the unknown case the crew have to attempt to control the aircraft flight path, so that they have 'Time" to solve the problem".
I sometimes wonder if some who post on PPrune, really know the above paragraph. It is great to sit at a computer and type an opinion ( often with hindsight), about what a crew should or should not have done.
As one who has experienced a Jet upset at a low height (about flare height), I can vouch for the very finite time that you have, to act.
Tmb
To add to that which i have pointed out in one of my previous threads that the key to survival in aviation is regular practice of emergency procedures.
It takes valuable seconds for the unprepared pilots brain to register the emergency and snap out of the initial panic mode whereas for the practiced crew it will come as an instinct to react.
Be prepared so you do not have to learn the hard way like i did.
Safe flying
It takes valuable seconds for the unprepared pilots brain to register the emergency and snap out of the initial panic mode whereas for the practiced crew it will come as an instinct to react.
Be prepared so you do not have to learn the hard way like i did.
Safe flying
Last edited by sms777; 21st May 2009 at 23:14. Reason: can't spell again
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Over the course of my career to date, I've experienced engine failures, fires, control failures, hydraulic failures, pneumatic failures, a recent explosive depressurization, and a host of other events, including forced landings, in a variety of aircraft ranging from single engine piston airplanes to turbojet multi engine heavy aircraft.
You're absolutely correct that a short period of time exists in which to recognize, analyze, and address the problem. That small amount of time will be scrutinized and dissected for a much larger period of time by people who aren't under pressure, who aren't under time constaints, who aren't under the gun to make a choice and make it correctly. This is always the case.
We do the best we can do under the circumstances, and we will return to second guess ourselves over and over, and endure no end of second guessing by others. It's the nature of what we do.
I can certainly look back at my performance under some conditions and determine that I could have done something differently, or better. I can also look back at my performance under other conditions with some element of pride and take comfort in knowing that I did the right thing. Yet other times I can look back, knowing that in hindsight I have more information with which to consider the events that took place, but with a clear conscience knowing that given the information I had before me, I did the best I could do.
I'm very much against speculation and guesswork. Far too many sadly feel it appropriate to discuss a mishap or event in the absence of basic fact. Too many rush to judgment without the facts, and this is unfortunate. It's highly unprofessional. Never the less, it's the way things are in the light of day, and we'll scarcely change human behavior, let alone alter the events in the light of the next day. It is what it is.
You're absolutely correct that a short period of time exists in which to recognize, analyze, and address the problem. That small amount of time will be scrutinized and dissected for a much larger period of time by people who aren't under pressure, who aren't under time constaints, who aren't under the gun to make a choice and make it correctly. This is always the case.
We do the best we can do under the circumstances, and we will return to second guess ourselves over and over, and endure no end of second guessing by others. It's the nature of what we do.
I can certainly look back at my performance under some conditions and determine that I could have done something differently, or better. I can also look back at my performance under other conditions with some element of pride and take comfort in knowing that I did the right thing. Yet other times I can look back, knowing that in hindsight I have more information with which to consider the events that took place, but with a clear conscience knowing that given the information I had before me, I did the best I could do.
I'm very much against speculation and guesswork. Far too many sadly feel it appropriate to discuss a mishap or event in the absence of basic fact. Too many rush to judgment without the facts, and this is unfortunate. It's highly unprofessional. Never the less, it's the way things are in the light of day, and we'll scarcely change human behavior, let alone alter the events in the light of the next day. It is what it is.
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On my first cross country after getting my PPL I found myself in a situation.
My C172N's throttle would not go back to idle and was suck from 2100rpm up.
I swear there's nothing like the adrenaline rush you get when you find yourself in a situation and even tho my engine had not cut out completely I found myself planning my next course of action when the engine does cut out.
Thankfully I made it back to my aerodrome and actioned a force landing. It turned out the throttle butterfly was jammed open because a piece of the idle jet had broken away within the carburettor.
My situation wasn't that serious but at that point in time in that plane it felt very serious and that's when your survival instincts kick in.
Everything you've trained for gets put to the test for these moments so I've grown a huge deal of respect for any pilot in those situation ragardless of whether they made the right decision or not.
Detailed Occurrence Results
My C172N's throttle would not go back to idle and was suck from 2100rpm up.
I swear there's nothing like the adrenaline rush you get when you find yourself in a situation and even tho my engine had not cut out completely I found myself planning my next course of action when the engine does cut out.
Thankfully I made it back to my aerodrome and actioned a force landing. It turned out the throttle butterfly was jammed open because a piece of the idle jet had broken away within the carburettor.
My situation wasn't that serious but at that point in time in that plane it felt very serious and that's when your survival instincts kick in.
Everything you've trained for gets put to the test for these moments so I've grown a huge deal of respect for any pilot in those situation ragardless of whether they made the right decision or not.
Detailed Occurrence Results
Last edited by dabz; 22nd May 2009 at 02:21.
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Also in future cockpits we (sorry, they) will need:
Ctrl+Alt+Delete
Ctrl+Alt+Delete
I was told by my Testing officer that everybody should fly expecting an abnormal situation, to minimize the time between the situation and identifying it. He quoted 4 seconds of denial before doing something about it - for an unprepared pilot
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......perhaps the boffins somewhere could develop an in flight "Pause" button.......
On another occasion, I was assigned to fly with a newly minted captain. As we taxied onto the runway, visibility was fine up to about 30 feet above us. There, a perfectly flat-based ceiling formed and it was solid IMC above that. The captain blinked, and said "Wow. This is just like the simulator."
I always thought it was supposed to be the other way around...a pause button would be nice, sometimes in the real world. Or a reset button...
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With respect to the post from dabz:
Many years ago, an Air Force instructor was running a student through his paces, and giving him a variety of simulated emergencies to deal with....
Instructor: "OK Bloggs, your throttle is stuck fully open. What are you going to do?"
Bloggs: "Go low flying Sir."
Bloggs passes with flying colours.
Many years ago, an Air Force instructor was running a student through his paces, and giving him a variety of simulated emergencies to deal with....
Instructor: "OK Bloggs, your throttle is stuck fully open. What are you going to do?"
Bloggs: "Go low flying Sir."
Bloggs passes with flying colours.
When PPL training, my instructor made these points regarding forced landings:
"You won't get all of it perfectly right but do your best and every bit you DO remember will help"
"Stay with the problem and keep working it all the way down - don't just give up when it does not re-start on the first try"
"Use the crash site if possible to dissipate energy on the ground roll e.g. steer between trees to break the wings off rather than hitting the trees with the fuselage"
"You won't get all of it perfectly right but do your best and every bit you DO remember will help"
"Stay with the problem and keep working it all the way down - don't just give up when it does not re-start on the first try"
"Use the crash site if possible to dissipate energy on the ground roll e.g. steer between trees to break the wings off rather than hitting the trees with the fuselage"
Silly Old Git
This is the reason we should be treated as GODS walking amongst the Untermenschen
Last edited by tinpis; 23rd May 2009 at 02:39. Reason: listening to Wagner
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The TOM Stall Forumn
I notice in the above forumn that the 737 was 40 degrees nose up and ASI around 80 Knots.
From my own experience in the Falcon, we were about 80 degrees nose up ( as reported by the operator in the control tower) on the first recovery and the IAS was approaching 90 knots when I knew that if we did not get the vertical component of the lift under control, we would go onto our back and become history.
So we rolled the aircraft on to its side and were able to recover before ground contact.
Tmb
From my own experience in the Falcon, we were about 80 degrees nose up ( as reported by the operator in the control tower) on the first recovery and the IAS was approaching 90 knots when I knew that if we did not get the vertical component of the lift under control, we would go onto our back and become history.
So we rolled the aircraft on to its side and were able to recover before ground contact.
Tmb
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The Dance of the Falcon
sms777:
Thank you for the comments.
In my time we seemed to practice "normal emergencies" which are the known type.
It was the unknown (until then) that got my attention that day, as I only took over the flying role at the top of the first departure from controlled flight.
With a bit of hindsight, I would have liked to have felt the controls prior to and as we entered the pitch - up.
Tmb
Thank you for the comments.
In my time we seemed to practice "normal emergencies" which are the known type.
It was the unknown (until then) that got my attention that day, as I only took over the flying role at the top of the first departure from controlled flight.
With a bit of hindsight, I would have liked to have felt the controls prior to and as we entered the pitch - up.
Tmb
