If you choose to respond at all then you might want to tell your inquisitors that you have not given them permission to access your private mail so any 'evidence' they claim is possibly inadmissible. Also, you say they have given permission for you to use your computer for private use - be sure to have this in the form of a document should they try to deny it or have reliable witnesses, if possible.


You should take your lawyer to the hearing, he will be highly tuned to every nuance of what the employer says and it will be better for you, in the long run, if he ties them in knots and makes them look foolish.

Jim, I really feel for you. The thing is, people, some people, simply have no character. It's almost as if they have no soul. I've sat across a table from two men who were respected and generally liked - indeed, that included me until I was shown the truth. They lied, and lied, and lied. Not very serious things, but as they put it, added together it made it questionable that I should hold my position in a demanding job.

What they cited was contrived and bewildering. Bewildering, because they were saying things that were bordering on Pythonesque. At that time, I didn't need them or that job, but hell, I wish I'd fought them on principle.

All this is about people. I have no idea why I didn't fight back then, but you need to - need to both for the result and how you will feel if you don't.

Just know you are not alone, and for hell's sake don't do what I did and take the line of least resistance. Fight. And let them know you're going to fight until your last breath. It may sound over dramatic, but people like this just don't care about others and how much they hurt their staff - and indeed the families of staff they have a moral if not legal responsibility for. Expect no decency from them. Their character is flawed and no amount of reasoned pleading for fairness will do a jot of good. But you have one thing going for you: these pathetic examples of human beings will so often buckle when in a real battle. Fight to win, and for the moment at least, don't allow the fear of losing to dampen your resolve.

Thanks Rivets, I fully intend fighting but am physically, financially and mentally exhausted by this whole matter.
Hacking my personal e mail account (AOL) is the pits and I intend going to police when I have checked on the law.
I cant use solicitor any more as I have no money left to do so- so am trying my best to DIY.
I have raised a 20 point grievance against my employer but have been informed that these will not be heard before disciplinary- despite many of the grievances raised are about the hearing and procedures.
Hearing tomorrow (wed) at 11am-

jimgriff

If your wife/son/daughter/dog/cat/neighbour use your private AOL account how can they prove you wrote that email?

Methinks some senior boss is offering a bonus to the people trying to get rid of you. As LR said, these people have no soul.

Your best tack with these people is to deny everything and tell them their investigative efforts are flawed. Your motivation to defeat them when you go to the hearing should stem from denying that pr!ck his bonus.

Good luck.

If it's your private AOL, they're in deep !!!!...

Computer Misuse Act 1990 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Have a nice read.

Hope it went well for you today Jim.

fingers crossed you nailed the buggers.

I turned up at the appointed hour with my union rep and waited, and waited..... 20 mins later their legal adviser walked in and informed us that the hearing couldn't proceed as proper procedure had not been followed.
There had been no formal investigation by the employer into a number of the allegations. So next four hours were spent answering questions to start those investigations. You couldn't make it up. Stress levels are going through the roof and will have to wait for a few weeks now for this to be done then another disciplinary hearing.

That treatment is standard stuff. It puts me in mind of an enemy starving its foe. They know your Achilles heel and intend to bleed you financially. See if your rep agrees, and when you can, talk to your solicitor about such behavior. It will forewarn him and with luck, it'll make his blood boil as much as it does mine when I hear such stories. Perhaps he'll know of procedures that demand a proper response to arranged meetings.

Something I'd thought to say but forgot. About 15 years ago, an old friend was fired from their job, they felt it was due to a very common and in no way debilitating complaint. I'd better say what it was. Just a localized arthritic issue. They were stunned - having been with the company for many years and well thought of by clients. Some time later they hired a solicitor.

The company was not a big one, but I assume finally claimed on some sort of insurance, because my friend was awarded enough to provide a small income for life and pay cash for a house. They ended up being better off than they had ever been.

Not a common story, but one where precise procedures were followed and right prevailed.

Jim -You may not be able to afford a lawyer/solicitor at the moment but surely your union can? Most unions have their own legal advisors and since your employer is using it's legal resources against you, are you not entitled to legal representation from the union? Someone suggested involving the newspapers, very risky but they, like the unions, have deep pockets too.


Sounds an awful lot like some irritating little nit in the IT department is out to make a name for themselves and has picked you.

If the organisation is union friendly and a lot of the workers are already union members then chances are the unions won't pay for a lawyer. Got that low-down from one very popular law firm in Australia whose "funding" for these kinds of cases is paid for entirely by unions i.e. they don't bite the hand that feeds them.

Re the farcical meeting, it appears that whoever is going for that bonus for your head has tripped over him/herself, so just to add a bit of formality and record of the event request a copy of the meeting minutes from whomever chaired it.

It looks like they don't have much to go on and are trying to force you to make an admission. Just be very careful what you say to them and be particularly attentive to not saying anything that can be deliberately taken out of context by them.

Cowards the lot of them.

At the risk of a monologue.

Rules for dealing with crap from employers.
(I have fired more people than I care to remember and I have been fired 3 times.)

1. Do every relaxing exercise you can whenever the barstewards are getting you riled up. They are very helpful in the middle of the night when you can't sleep. Google for relaxing exercises. My favourites are 1. Deep breathing and 2. Muscle tensing and relaxing up and down the body.

2. Say as little as possible at any point in time. If you can get through a 3 hour meeting without saying anything, do it. Think of your favourite song when they are talking. (For me it is Leyla by Clapton) (It will make more sense than them talking). If you can't think of a song, think of a great film/tv programme. (For me it is either a Douglas Adams piece, or any Monty Python)
Do the relaxing exercises during meetings. Feel free to stand up and walk about to avoid DVT

3. Refuse to answer any question unless it is put in writing. Typed on paper. Not e-mails.

4. Only respond in writing. Don't write anything without thinking about what you have written. For about 48 hours.

5. Get all their stuff - e.g. the AoL account stuff, in writing.

6. Do the relaxation exercises again.

7. If you can't sleep, try sleeping tab.s, ear plugs and eye shades. I've used the lot.

You get the idea, I hope. AO

Jimgriff....Firstly let me say, i sympathise with your position, but Iam stunned at your apparent naivety, when you are a Magistrate.

First rule....NEVER be overawed by an adversary....they ALL pee and 5h1t the same as you.

As with the taxman....Do NOT give a direct answer.... "I will let you knowthe answer"
"I will advise you in due course" are standard stock "stonewalls"

"I Think....invariably comes back as "you stated" -so, DON'T

be as unchelpfully cooperative as you can....consider fighting fire with fire and warning individuals thet your legal representative is preparing a case against THEM, PERSONALLY.... computer misuse...abuse of public office...etc.

If they think they may have to walk the plank alone, they may well reconsider their position.
A good lawyer, on the face of the story you have submitted here, would already have issued writs, imho.

Are they straw-men, or will the council pick up the tab? (misuse of public funds? embezzlement? Perhaps they're like you, no reserves and the right prod may make them think about wether they can afford to be held personally liable for someone else's vendetta. I would have thought a decent solicitor would take this case on a contingency basis.....IE he gets paid after winning.

How about ataking a civil summons out against the "ringleader" ?

I'd say you already have a case for constructive dismissal.

Force them to submit all in writing..refuse and deny any verbal interchanges.

if you continue to act like a victim, you set yourself up to become one.....fight fire with fire. you owe it to your family, if not yourself!

I too have been stunned by your apparent naivety, especially as you sit as a magistrate.

I also concur with everything cockney steve has said above.

I was once given the advice - if ever being summoned before the Flight Manager for some minor misdemeanour - to imagine him sat on the toilet with his pants around his ankles, not sat behind a desk in gold braid adorned uniform.


In other words: - they are only as human, and therefore as fallible, as yourself.


It helps !

When you next get to talk to them, have a few questions written down on formal looking paper. Clip board or some-such. Plan these questions carefully - mindful of Mike's comment about them going on the wrong side of the law looking at your email - and ask these questions as though you've been briefed to get specific information. Refuse to discuss the reason, or any third party, but word it as " I gather I need to have these questions answered." If they decline, suggest they are germane and you're told you have a right to know. etc., etc.

As an add-on to what Ancient Observer has said about getting through a long meeting without saying anything, try this method that I was taught as resistance to interrogation; you 'do the alphabet', you hear them but don't really listen, what you are looking for is a word that begins with 'A', then one with 'B' etc. etc. When you get stuck go back to 'A' - it really works, you are thinking in a world of your own whilst they witter on.

jimgriff
 

How are you getting on with this situation? Has it ended or is it ongoing?

Yes, an update would be interesting.

I am still suspended on full pay. They are seemingly still investigating things. Now in 10th month. Have been confirmed as nuts by psychologist - and am in care of local mental health crisis team (suicide risk). Madness.

Jim

Sorry to hear about all this.

May I ask (and no need to answer if you don't want) did one psychologist declare you "nuts" ?

What was the actual classification ?

Did they do any tests or just talk to you ?

And are you able to get a second opinion ?


Good luck with everything.

Have PM'd you 500

erm, probably speaking out of term here but haven't you cracked the ultimate job?
full pay, no responsibilities and plenty of time for fishing :}

....you have bought a fishing rod haven't you?

nothing would peeve the enemy more than you turn up to meetings deeply suntanned, smiling and smelling faintly of last nights catch :-)

Jim,

PM sent to you as no PM received.

and

I don't know all the gory details (and probably don't want to) but maybe you got a reputation as the metaphorical hanging judge and someone wants you out of the way for an impending trial.

The best advice under these circumstances until the so called investigation conludes and finds nothing.

Quick update- I am still suspended on full pay- 11 months now. Still not heard anything from my employer.
I took a grievance to them and on third attempt they met with me and just listened- no questions, no statements, no testing of my evidence- nothing. My union colleague who attended with me stated that in his opinion it was not a formal grievance meeting in any format that he was aware of and did not comply with any form of law, guidance etc and was therefore not worth the effort attending. I have not heard from the employer since that meeting some 6 weeks ago. Then out of the blue - yesterday- I had an invite to attend a grievance appeal meeting called by my employer. BUT- I have not made any appeal as there has not been any reaction to the meeting for me to appeal.!! Madness.
I still await an 'expert' analysis of the computer hard drive- which I am led to understand has taken place- but I have not been given the chance to have the same done by myself- and this is where I need the possible help of my fellow Ppruners- Is there anyone out there who could (confidentially) look at the report - if it turns up- and give me an expert opinion on what is being said and to test the evidence given by the employers side against me?
I can send a PDF copy to anyone who can do this for me- but would need a report of some sort to enable me to test any statements made by them.
I do not have the report yet- and may not even get it- but am just asking ahead.
I will not be able to pay much for such a report as I am spent out- financially and emotionally and am looking for a favour from a friend to help me please.
e mail me or PM me from here if you can help or know someone who can.
Thanks in advance
Jimgriif

500N- I have sent you a number of replies- but nothing heard- e mail?

So let me get this straight.....

You want someone to write you a report on a report written by a third-party selected by your ex-employer. This report relating to an active and unresolved dispute between yourself and your employer, the circumstances of which we know nothing about, let alone having seen any of the IT side of it.

Yeah.... I can't possibly think where that plan could go wrong. :rolleyes:

I'd be surprised if anyone worth their salt is willing to touch that one with a barge pole. Anyone who does agree will only be giving you a load of rubbish because they're merely proffering an opinion on an opinion on a topic they've only heard part of one side of a story of .... you might as well ask your dog to do that for you as the worthiness of the result won't be much different.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but just trying to put you in the "expert's shoes" so to speak.

Thanks for the response- seriously-I know it sounds dodgy- but it's not something I can afford to do professionally and all I was looking for was someone with more knowledge than me to cast an eye on a report and see that it was sound in content- not on the subject- but on the methodology and presentation.
For all I know they could write a load of stuff that sounds good but worthless from an evidential point of view. I don't want anyone to take sides. I do understand completely where you are coming from.

I find it strange that your employer has the resources to "sideline" you on full pay for almost a year......Uet it's HR and Legal departments would appear to be staffed by incompetent half-wits.......
Do the board of directors actually know that a large sum of their cash has been squandered on what sounds like a personal vendetta.?
Meanwhile, someone is paying you to do your own thing....make the most of it!

I think what Jim is looking for is someone to cast their over over a report and report back "Yep, these guys know their stuff" or "Nope, these guys are feeding you a load of bull".

Thanks PF- exactly- I don't want opinion on the content- just the methodology and the viability.
I have now read the report briefly- (93 pages) arrived at 13.10 today- and it seems clear (they provide evidence) that they have accessed my private e mail account and the private e mail account of my wife- which were nothing to do with work. I did have permission to access private e mail from my work kit. I think they may have just shot themselves in the foot.- My wife has nothing to do with my work and never calls there either- but details of her e mails sent from her private e mail account are included in the report.

Take it to the police. They will be in deep poo if they have.

How on earth did they access your wife's private emails? Surely they would be on her PC/Laptop?
Anyway, it is starting to sound time to get your union rep back on the case and starting talking about huge sums of money.
I too was "set up" back in 2004; mainly because I said what I saw and this did not suit the growing band of Flash Harrys who were slithering their way up the corporate ladder. They manoeuvred me into an imaginary job which they then made redundant. I had to fight with threats of an industrial tribunal and they capitulated with literally 15 minutes to go before the deadline for filing the complaint. They came up with 4 years salary and paid all my legal bills.
So, stick it to them. It sounds possible someone at work has a personal grudge and is perhaps using the company to stitch you up. Don't let them get away with it!

Ah ok, that helps clarify ! Thank you.

If they have accessed your private emails and your wife's private emails that is certainly unlawful and probably illegal.
You must involve Mr Plod to log the possibility of an illegal act. Get a case/report number from Mr Plod who is duty bound to investigate.
And put, and get, everything in writing. Proper typed stuff on paper. Good luck.
AO.

I went to police this morning and made formal complaint.

As a matter of interest how did they treat you and the complaint.

I got to meet a young detective constable who took lots of notes. I left a comprehensive sheet of info outlining in detail my concerns and I was told that the DC would speak to the 'boss' and get back to me. I made sure to note that I wanted to make a formal complaint.- Still waiting to hear.

On a side note- I got notified last week (Thursday) that I was 'invited' to a grievance appeal meeting. I immediately (same day) replied by recorded delivery that I had not made an appeal as no result from the grievances had been received and could not have been as no formal grievance meeting had actually taken place. So how could I appeal? I asked for urgent confirmation
At 10pm on Monday eve I got an e mail that the meeting was to be a full blown grievance meeting! Set for 10am the next morning.
You couldn't make it up.
I did attend. 4 hour meeting.