Win7 Home Network - Going nuts
 

Ok, not often I have to ask for help but here we go.

Decided to finally set up file and printer sharing on all 3 computers here and hit several problems.

First, the desktop and laptop were running Win 7 and the netbook was WinWP. I could read/access things on the desktop from the netbook, but not the other way around (password issues when there was no password for the home network!) so the obvious solution was to install Win7 on the netbook (didn't know it would be happy to install from a USB stick since netbook has no dvd drive, but it worked!!).

So, have 7 on all three machines and guess what. The bloody netbook and desktop STILL won't talk to each other! Every time it says "wrong password" no matter how much I change the password on both, how often I set up the network from each machine, how many times I check to make sure all settings for the home network are identical, etc. Firewalls (Comodo on both machines, with Avira AV on both machines) have been turned off and on again, new networks detected, etc etc etc. But it always comes up with "wrong password" no matter what I do.

I'm open to suggestions here, since I ain't even tried to get her laptop to speak to the other 2 yet.....

HELP!!!!

Check the permissions for the printer and the directories you want to share (advance sharing setting - not sure if this is available in the home edition)

All is ok, all is "on" and the password protection on both machines is "off" so no need to have profiles per user set up on all machines.

The problem is that they won't even connect to the same "home network" using the password provided when you "create" a home network, and no matter how many times I change things it will not happen.

Have you tried pinging the other machines in the network? or leavinmg the network on the machines and restarting the home network?

Tried all that, para, and you can "see" the computers on the network yet when you try to "join" it just goes "Password is incorrect".


Had *some* success. Took Avira off the netbook and disabled Comodo on same. Installed Microsoft Security Essentials and turned on Winders Firewall. Set up new home group. "Joined" group on desktop, etered password and it worked! But since I left Avira and Comodo running on the desktop I fail to see how that would be "blocking" since I can access shared files on desktop.............


I'm confused............

You can get medication for that dear boy. :E


Have you browsed through this? might help: HomeGroup from start to finish - Help & How-to - Microsoft Windows

Ok, all working now. Why taking the AV and Firewall off ONE computer and replacing it with something else, whilst leaving exactly the same programs on the other two, cured the problem (since the two with Avira and Comodo are talking together quite happily) is beyond me.

Thanks for the help anyway, folks

I did go through everything in that, GG, to see what I was doing wrong. But it didn't help, and neither did any online solutions from Microsoft, since everything fell down at the "enter password" stage where, no matter what, it always came back with "password is incorrect".


Still confused, but it works now so who cares.

I'm going to bore everyone again with pointing out another failure by a 3rd party firewall sorted by going to Windows Firewall :}

I agree. There is no reason to use a third party firewall if you are an average joe - just creates problems.

Then, Mike, since you are such a smartass you can explain why the other two computers with the same 3rd party firewall had no issues "speaking" to each other and why things would not work when the firewall was turned OFF (as in, programme closed down so it wasn't even running) on at least two computers.

I went through this merry game a while ago.

I had two problems - one that a Microsoft Home Network totally scrambled my desktop and my laptop by changing ownership of drive C (on both) to someone higher than "Administrator" so I couldn't access them or change them back. I had to wipe and reinstall on one machine, but a very helpful person on here (thank you again) put me in touch with someone who helped me to unlock the other.

Since then, I don't go near Home Networks. I use a Work Network which has been sweetness and light.

The other problem was getting the "out" computers to see the printer on the desktop. In the end, I was pointed at the Credential Manager in the Control Panel: that worked fine.

Wasn't trying to be a smartass as you put it, more pointing out more ammo to my earlier and oft mentioned statement that 3rd party firewalls are more trouble than they're worth.

Anyway, since you asked, you need to consider network traffic is often 2-way and that within a dialogue between two computers there are 4 directions to check: Inbound and Outbound for each computer. Now, MS firewall reduces that complexity to simply inbound on each computer and is pre-programmed to 'know' how home networks and domains work. For instance, most problems i've seen with 3rd-party firewalls are because they block one or more ports associated with kerberos and whilst an initial domain join might work as the ports are opened for that temporary time, subsequently they're closed and the computers in question either chug to a halt or give issues similar to the ones you're reporting. Also, you need to understand that whilst the firewall might say it's disabled, it is usually facilitated by being a shim in the network stack or similar, so "disabled" in this context usually means "i'm going to ignore the majority of my ruleset but i'll still stay resident" and it's the resident portions which still give problems, sometimes defaulting to a "block all" state in the worst of cases.

Couple this with prompts to block things that really shouldn't be blocked given to users who don't know why, and that is why 3rd party firewalls are sometimes worse than the hackers they're designed to defend against.

Glad you've sorted it though.

Well, there has been issues in the past with the winders firewall which is why I refused to use it. Also, by preventing some outgoing traffic (under defined parameters) you can also see if your computer has been compromised as a dodgy email attachment, for example, may "send" data to a known "naughty address". So by limiting things to inbound only you reduce the effectiveness of the firewall as there are plenty things out there which can can cause problems. So there is a major gripe I have with Winders Firewall.

Now, to the "issues". "Password is incorrect", in either direction when setting up the network, is NOT something being blocked as you could "see" each computer when you looked at the network. You just couldn't access them due to a strange issue with the network itself. Also, exiting the firewall program, not merely disabling it but actually shutting it down completely, made no difference whatsoever, it was like Winders was changng the password seconds after I set it. Now, if it was an issue with Comodo, why do the other two computers on the network, using the same, fully updated, version of Comodo have no issues? Therefore, since the same problem does not exist on two computers (running Win7 Ultimate and Win7 Home Premium) running the same version of the same 3rd party firewall, the firewall cannot realistically be at fault since these two computers would show the same issues.

My thoughts did turn to the AV program, Avira, as being a cause of the problem as it does go a little bit further than being a "pure" AV program. That was why I uninstalled it, and the firewall, on one PC to see if the problem would still be there. The other two are still running the same, fully updated, version of Avira, yet have no issues talking to anything on the network.

So how can it be that changing the setup on ONE computer and leaving the other two with EXACTLY the same setup as the one which had Microsoft Security Essentials installed cures the problem IF the 3rd party firewall was the issue, especially since I have setup home networks before using that very same software on Vista/XP?

I did drop a little hint earlier in this, see if you can spot it. I know one thing that was changing constantly and I have no idea why it suddenly decided to behave. And it had nothing to do with any 3rd party firewall...............

Would you care to elucidate on these?
A fair point, but as I have mentioned earlier it is the lesser of two evils. If you're worried about SMTP outbound connectivity (for instance) you could always set a rule on your broadband router to block rather than on your home network. I know it isn't a panacea, but it's a better step IMHO than something on your PC blocking outbound traffic.
Define "see" - is it via PING? which is an ICMP packet, is it via browsing the network? which is via browse mastering and isn't necessarily talking to the machine in question at the time, is it via browsing the machine in question via connection to a CIFS share? in which case the firewall could be blocking one or more TCP and/or UDP ports from 135-139, or possible TCP/UDP port 445 which is the direct connection to the SMB share. You see, there's a lot of scope for blocking a port or ports which would give partial usability whilst screwing things up in the long run.

I covered this in my previous post.

You're assuming 2 things:

1) They're running IDENTICAL rulesets (rather than just roughly similar ones)
2) They're installed correctly in the TCP/IP stack and didn't have any issues under install which have impaired their usage

Avira, being an "Internet Security" application, contains it's own firewall. Good luck in lining up the holes in the swiss cheese!

Because you're not considering the wider implications of home networking, where the 2 machines in question are NOT necessarily the only ones participating in the dialogue.

You might want to read this: Ultimate Troubleshooting Guide for Windows 7 HomeGroup Connection Issues

The two machines, at that time, were the only two machines involved. A "look" at my router showed nothing else connected to that.

Comodo not running "identical" rules? I set everything up, it's a bit beyond the PYT, so I know what "rules" I allow. Everything was identical, trust me.

Avira, in my case, is the free antivirus only. It's not the full internet security package any more than the Comodo package had it's own antivirus installed. No holes in this cheese, I'm afraid.

Could ping either PC, depending on which one I tried to set up network. That was ok. Didn't stop the "password is incorrect" issue.

One of the two machines which I was originally trying to connect up still runs Comodo and Avira. When I tried to set up the network from that machine I still had the same issues (trust me, this went on for a while with constant deleting of homegroups and making them from the other machine, back and forward, back and forward) when I tried to connect with the netbook. So why did the problem disappear when the netbook got "modified" and not the desktop since the same issue appeared when the desktop "created" the homegroup before the netbook got modified? And why did it suddenly work, desktop creating the homegroup, after the netbook got modified?

When I went back to whatever PC was the originator of the home network to make sure the password generated by Win 7 was written down properly, it sometimes came up with a completely different password. That confused me.


Buggrit, now you have me in the mood to experiment once I finish modifying the desktop PC (loads of stuff being deleted and moved so a partition can be formatted to allow the win7 install to be moved there, gives me space for another hard disk, you see). First Comodo will go back on just to see what happens, then Avira then I'll see what happens. Don't mind "experimenting" on this netbook, everything that is important is on the desktop and a 1Tb external so if I bugger things up here it doesn't really matter.

Good luck :ok: let us know if you pinpoint things.