Vista - Microsoft's new OS
Just Binos
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It seems fairly clear to me, and nothing said on this thread has remotely changed my mind, that Linux is a loooooooong way from being suitable for use by the "any idiot" fraternity, including myself, regardless of its benefits. Which causes me to ponder. Standby for pondering results.
When MS decide they need another skydillion umptillion dollars to keep their shareholders happy, they issue a new OS which nobody needs but which everybody eventually has to get, because MS are clearly not going to play along if 90% of the PC owners said "No, XP is fine for my needs thanks, you can shove your Vista where the sun don't shine." They simply stop producing XP, and since we're long past the golden days of W98SE when there was no DRM and your disc could be copied ad infinitum, there is no choice.
But wait a minute. MS don't sell computers, they sell operating systems. What if the Dells and Compaqs and HP's of the world said to MS, "we think this new system is completely unnecessary and adds so much to the cost of basic systems which are our bread and butter that we're not going to pay for it. Keep producing XP or we'll go elsewhere."
Right now MS obviously rely on there being nowhere else to go, in other words they are abusing their virtual monopoly. So, where is Linux in all this? I have no idea how a free product works, but wouldn't somebody, a company, a cooperative, whatever, be able to get together less than 1% of the MS budget and drag Linux into the world of being useable by "any idiot" in a relatively short time?
I have long been of the opinion that the vast majority of computer users are overserviced by a factor of lots. That is, they don't use a quarter of what their basic machine is capable of. The only reason I ever changed from W98SE is because it was deliberately made obsolete by new software.
I am probably missing something obvious, but it seems like there is a real opportunity to throw whatever is needed at Linux to get it to an easy interface with no geeky knowledge at all needed, so that Mr Dell can say to Mr Gates, "sorry Bill, we don't need you anymore", as he did to Intel a few years ago, forcing a price cut. Or is the pervasiveness of MS software such that it's already too late, and we are doomed to buying every new and unnecessary OS update they thrust upon us?
Isn't this how the free enterprise system is suposed to work? Competition? I suspect Mac's five year vision for Linux could be made a lot shorter with a couple of billion bucks thrown at it, and lots of anti-Microsoft nerds out there who would leap at the opportunity to get paid for working on it.
Ok, ok, I'm awake now. Sorry, it was just a dream.....
When MS decide they need another skydillion umptillion dollars to keep their shareholders happy, they issue a new OS which nobody needs but which everybody eventually has to get, because MS are clearly not going to play along if 90% of the PC owners said "No, XP is fine for my needs thanks, you can shove your Vista where the sun don't shine." They simply stop producing XP, and since we're long past the golden days of W98SE when there was no DRM and your disc could be copied ad infinitum, there is no choice.
But wait a minute. MS don't sell computers, they sell operating systems. What if the Dells and Compaqs and HP's of the world said to MS, "we think this new system is completely unnecessary and adds so much to the cost of basic systems which are our bread and butter that we're not going to pay for it. Keep producing XP or we'll go elsewhere."
Right now MS obviously rely on there being nowhere else to go, in other words they are abusing their virtual monopoly. So, where is Linux in all this? I have no idea how a free product works, but wouldn't somebody, a company, a cooperative, whatever, be able to get together less than 1% of the MS budget and drag Linux into the world of being useable by "any idiot" in a relatively short time?
I have long been of the opinion that the vast majority of computer users are overserviced by a factor of lots. That is, they don't use a quarter of what their basic machine is capable of. The only reason I ever changed from W98SE is because it was deliberately made obsolete by new software.
I am probably missing something obvious, but it seems like there is a real opportunity to throw whatever is needed at Linux to get it to an easy interface with no geeky knowledge at all needed, so that Mr Dell can say to Mr Gates, "sorry Bill, we don't need you anymore", as he did to Intel a few years ago, forcing a price cut. Or is the pervasiveness of MS software such that it's already too late, and we are doomed to buying every new and unnecessary OS update they thrust upon us?
Isn't this how the free enterprise system is suposed to work? Competition? I suspect Mac's five year vision for Linux could be made a lot shorter with a couple of billion bucks thrown at it, and lots of anti-Microsoft nerds out there who would leap at the opportunity to get paid for working on it.
Ok, ok, I'm awake now. Sorry, it was just a dream.....
Plastic PPRuNer
Good points Binos, however...
I can't agree that Linux "...... is a loooooooong way from being suitable for use by the "any idiot" fraternity". Ubuntu, Kanotix and SuSE distros are pretty much there. They're certainly infinitely easier to install and use and update than DOS or the 3.x Windows series. SuSE's YAST really makes installing new apps as easy as XP. Have you every tried it on a reasonably modern PC?
Things ARE a bit different, but a lot less than converting from a Boeing to an Airbus or a Seneca to a Cherokee, or any of the things that professional pilots do without too many problems. However the idea is not to produce an MS clone, but to produce something equally good or better!
As for your comments about Dell and Compaq and HP, they just LOVE new operating systems with higher requirements! That way folks will junk their last PC and buy a new one from them that CAN run Hasta la Vista properly!
"...wouldn't somebody, a company, a cooperative, whatever, be able to get together less than 1% of the MS budget and drag Linux into the world of being useable by "any idiot" in a relatively short time?"
Already been being done for quite a while - whaddaya think Red Hat, Novell/SuSE et al. have been up to for the last few years? And they're pretty much there - they'd be a lot further if MS wasn't leaning heavily on hardware manufacturers NOT to release drivers for Linux and to keep their specs secret so that Linux distro people have to reverse-engineer the specs to write their own drivers!
MS are **** scared now and using every dirty tactic in the book to slow down the Linux train - as I said, "...bribery, lies, innuendo, payoffs, threats to vendors, perversion of web and document standards and lawyers, lawyers, lawyers."
"Isn't this how the free enterprise system is suposed to work? Competition? "
Forgive me for chuckling - of course you're right, but MS have never had the slightest intention of allowing anyone else to compete on their turf - check-out Judge Jackson's "Findings of Fact" in the DOJ vs MS case at http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm
The worrying thing for the more philosophically minded among you is how can a company become so rich and powerful that it can afford to ignore with impunity the courts in it's own and other countries?
Bill's vision is a Microsoft world - where MS runs on all the PCs, runs the media, runs the phones, runs the PDAs, the TVs, the camcorders; and the MS formats of image files, document files and everything else is the de facto and preferably the de jure standard of the world.
MS is NOT an independent or impartial arbiter. At best Microsoft is consumed by monumental hubris if they believe that they truly know what is good for all the rest of us. We have no reason to believe it's protestations that the Microsoft way is the best way and that is why we should be doing it. On the contrary, in this information age, to have so much power and control vested in a single, supranational independent company, with it's own personal agenda is folly of the most dangerous kind.
I can't agree that Linux "...... is a loooooooong way from being suitable for use by the "any idiot" fraternity". Ubuntu, Kanotix and SuSE distros are pretty much there. They're certainly infinitely easier to install and use and update than DOS or the 3.x Windows series. SuSE's YAST really makes installing new apps as easy as XP. Have you every tried it on a reasonably modern PC?
Things ARE a bit different, but a lot less than converting from a Boeing to an Airbus or a Seneca to a Cherokee, or any of the things that professional pilots do without too many problems. However the idea is not to produce an MS clone, but to produce something equally good or better!
As for your comments about Dell and Compaq and HP, they just LOVE new operating systems with higher requirements! That way folks will junk their last PC and buy a new one from them that CAN run Hasta la Vista properly!
"...wouldn't somebody, a company, a cooperative, whatever, be able to get together less than 1% of the MS budget and drag Linux into the world of being useable by "any idiot" in a relatively short time?"
Already been being done for quite a while - whaddaya think Red Hat, Novell/SuSE et al. have been up to for the last few years? And they're pretty much there - they'd be a lot further if MS wasn't leaning heavily on hardware manufacturers NOT to release drivers for Linux and to keep their specs secret so that Linux distro people have to reverse-engineer the specs to write their own drivers!
MS are **** scared now and using every dirty tactic in the book to slow down the Linux train - as I said, "...bribery, lies, innuendo, payoffs, threats to vendors, perversion of web and document standards and lawyers, lawyers, lawyers."
"Isn't this how the free enterprise system is suposed to work? Competition? "
Forgive me for chuckling - of course you're right, but MS have never had the slightest intention of allowing anyone else to compete on their turf - check-out Judge Jackson's "Findings of Fact" in the DOJ vs MS case at http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm
The worrying thing for the more philosophically minded among you is how can a company become so rich and powerful that it can afford to ignore with impunity the courts in it's own and other countries?
Bill's vision is a Microsoft world - where MS runs on all the PCs, runs the media, runs the phones, runs the PDAs, the TVs, the camcorders; and the MS formats of image files, document files and everything else is the de facto and preferably the de jure standard of the world.
MS is NOT an independent or impartial arbiter. At best Microsoft is consumed by monumental hubris if they believe that they truly know what is good for all the rest of us. We have no reason to believe it's protestations that the Microsoft way is the best way and that is why we should be doing it. On the contrary, in this information age, to have so much power and control vested in a single, supranational independent company, with it's own personal agenda is folly of the most dangerous kind.
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What I've come to believe is that Linux is brilliant server OS software, but not so good on the desktop. Your O/S should be invisible and 'just work', and on the desktop windows is and linux isn't. I had a windows machine becoime unbootable recently, and the best way for me to get to the drive before reinstalling Windows was to boot using Ubuntu (very 'non geek' software) - but even that required me to manually mount the drive. It picked up all my obscure hardware, but not the drive! What sort of nonsense is that? They say it's for my safety, which is rather 'we know best', but if they keep that up then ubuntu will never become mainstream. Very few people are going to be able to mount a drive using a command shell.
And microsoft probably is a nasty company which wants its domination to last for as long as possible, but they are all like that. If you worry about big companies keeping tabs on where you are and what you do, you should bin your mobile phone and credit cards. They know far more about you than microsoft.
And microsoft probably is a nasty company which wants its domination to last for as long as possible, but they are all like that. If you worry about big companies keeping tabs on where you are and what you do, you should bin your mobile phone and credit cards. They know far more about you than microsoft.
Plastic PPRuNer
Originally Posted by slim_slag
Ubuntu.....required me to manually mount the drive. It picked up all my obscure hardware, but not the drive! What sort of nonsense is that? They say it's for my safety, which is rather 'we know best', but if they keep that up then ubuntu will never become mainstream. Very few people are going to be able to mount a drive using a command shell.
Originally Posted by slim_slag
And microsoft probably is a nasty company which wants its domination to last for as long as possible, but they are all like that. If you worry about big companies keeping tabs on where you are and what you do, you should bin your mobile phone and credit cards. They know far more about you than microsoft.
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Originally Posted by Mac the Knife
New shiny Breezy just mounts them.....
Even Apple makes you mount drives (though you can automate it). Suppose you have a string of drives - do you want the OS to chunter along mounting each one on boot? Then people would complain about THAT.
Default behaviour has to be simple, my mother has to be able to use it, out of the box. All the people who are smart enough to get a job should be able to use it, out of the box. A significant percentage of these people probably don't even know there is a hard drive in there.
True enough, but that's not the point.
Plastic PPRuNer
Originally Posted by slim_slag
Default behaviour has to be simple, my mother has to be able to use it, out of the box. All the people who are smart enough to get a job should be able to use it, out of the box. A significant percentage of these people probably don't even know there is a hard drive in there.
Whichever way you slice it, Windows, Apple Mac, Solaris or Linux, some degree of intelligence and ability to learn is an unavoidable prerequisite!
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
Dragging this back from the dead...
Anyone who does not want to move to Vista and wants to stick with XP should upgrade their PC components and peripherals sooner rather than later.
MS have moved large chunks of driver code out of the kernel ring to less protected rings - the effect being to make virtually all existing XP device drivers redundant in Vista.
So when new graphics cards, printers, scanners, etc. etc. are being developed and the manfrs have to write drivers for them they are going to keep on developing both XP and Vista drivers? Is MS going to be "helpful" in getting XP drivers developed and certified?
Dream on.
Upgrade to the latest and fastest soon, before it's too late!
Unless you want DRM
Anyone who does not want to move to Vista and wants to stick with XP should upgrade their PC components and peripherals sooner rather than later.
MS have moved large chunks of driver code out of the kernel ring to less protected rings - the effect being to make virtually all existing XP device drivers redundant in Vista.
So when new graphics cards, printers, scanners, etc. etc. are being developed and the manfrs have to write drivers for them they are going to keep on developing both XP and Vista drivers? Is MS going to be "helpful" in getting XP drivers developed and certified?
Dream on.
Upgrade to the latest and fastest soon, before it's too late!
Unless you want DRM
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Sorry - been elsewhere arguing other things 
I learned "Job Control Language" many years ago in a brief interlude now best forgotten, when I was learning to drive the IBM 360/50 downstairs, just in case. Quickly forgotten, I'm happy to say.
The "Job Control Language" I referred to above is the stuff I had to type at Linux to get it to work. For example, to make the sound card go (not exactly an arduous task in Windows - it "just worked"), I had to type at it:
-d alsa --device emu10k1
jackd -d alsa -d sblive
jackstat -Rv -d alsa -p128 -n2 -r44100
asfxload
How did I find out that lot? It's not on any website! I don't even know if it's right - but it worked. It doesn't any more, since I installed some plugins for Firefox, but I don't mind the Linux machine being silent.
To install a downloaded package that isn't covered by kpackage, the aficionado has to type stuff like:
ar xvfz zlib-1.2.3.tar.gz
cd zlib-1.2.3
make clean
./configure -s
make
make install
It's not a problem if you can copy and paste, or if you can tell -1 from -l from -I but I did find it a little less than totally intuitive.
I'm told it's getting a lot easier, and I've used a Knoppix CD on a friend's Windows laptop which wouldn't boot and threatened to lose several gigabytes of digital photos that he'd not backed up... (He thought he had, but something hadn't worked). Knoppix recovered the lot. That was impressive.
I learned "Job Control Language" many years ago in a brief interlude now best forgotten, when I was learning to drive the IBM 360/50 downstairs, just in case. Quickly forgotten, I'm happy to say.
The "Job Control Language" I referred to above is the stuff I had to type at Linux to get it to work. For example, to make the sound card go (not exactly an arduous task in Windows - it "just worked"), I had to type at it:
-d alsa --device emu10k1
jackd -d alsa -d sblive
jackstat -Rv -d alsa -p128 -n2 -r44100
asfxload
How did I find out that lot? It's not on any website! I don't even know if it's right - but it worked. It doesn't any more, since I installed some plugins for Firefox, but I don't mind the Linux machine being silent.
To install a downloaded package that isn't covered by kpackage, the aficionado has to type stuff like:
ar xvfz zlib-1.2.3.tar.gz
cd zlib-1.2.3
make clean
./configure -s
make
make install
It's not a problem if you can copy and paste, or if you can tell -1 from -l from -I but I did find it a little less than totally intuitive.
I'm told it's getting a lot easier, and I've used a Knoppix CD on a friend's Windows laptop which wouldn't boot and threatened to lose several gigabytes of digital photos that he'd not backed up... (He thought he had, but something hadn't worked). Knoppix recovered the lot. That was impressive.
Plastic PPRuNer
Originally Posted by Keef
-d alsa --device emu10k1
jackd -d alsa -d sblive
jackstat -Rv -d alsa -p128 -n2 -r44100
asfxload
jackd -d alsa -d sblive
jackstat -Rv -d alsa -p128 -n2 -r44100
asfxload
Originally Posted by Keef
To install a downloaded package that isn't covered by kpackage, the aficionado has to type stuff like:
ar xvfz zlib-1.2.3.tar.gz
cd zlib-1.2.3
make clean
./configure -s
make
make install
ar xvfz zlib-1.2.3.tar.gz
cd zlib-1.2.3
make clean
./configure -s
make
make install
Most of the time these days there'll be a pre-compiled binary for your distro available and you can just click on the .rpm or .deb or whatever package and after giving an admin password away you go.
I haven't had to compile an app from source for quite a while.
Are you sure you're working with modern Linux distros Keef? All that stuff sounds like the way it was 5 or more years ago.
Mac
"Microsoft delays launch of Vista......
.....Efforts to improve security in the new system were largely behind the delay, Microsoft said. "
See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4831374.stm
Who needs it anyway? What's wrong with Windows XP as a Windows OS? Yes, I know there are other OS, so don't bother trying to interest me in some geeky alternative. I'm quite happy with WinXP and I'm not going to fork out for something unnecessary!
.....Efforts to improve security in the new system were largely behind the delay, Microsoft said. "
See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4831374.stm
Who needs it anyway? What's wrong with Windows XP as a Windows OS? Yes, I know there are other OS, so don't bother trying to interest me in some geeky alternative. I'm quite happy with WinXP and I'm not going to fork out for something unnecessary!
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Mr. BEagle, you ask who needs Vista. Microsoft needs Vista. Their income would suffer if they didn't have New, Better to sell. Similarly, the hotshots on their staff would leave if they didn't have something new to work on. Software maintenance isn't all that exciting.
Since support for XP will eventually be withdrawn, we need to recognize that we really rent the operating system, though it isn't explicitly stated that way.
Since support for XP will eventually be withdrawn, we need to recognize that we really rent the operating system, though it isn't explicitly stated that way.
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renting implies ongoing payments, which home users don't have to pay. You pay a one off fee to licence (not own) your copy of XP and that's it. When they remove support you can still use it. Whether that makes sense is not a licence issue, it's your choice, not Microsoft's. Desupporting software after a period of time is commonplace in the industry.
Plastic PPRuNer
Originally Posted by slim_slag
renting implies ongoing payments, which home users don't have to pay. You pay a one off fee to licence (not own) your copy of XP and that's it. When they remove support you can still use it. Whether that makes sense is not a licence issue, it's your choice, not Microsoft's. Desupporting software after a period of time is commonplace in the industry.
I know MS (and the hardware manufacturers) would LOVE us all to move to Vista (at considerable expense to ourselves and even more to any software competition [because all the programming APIs will change]).
Desupporting some ageing application that not enough people use anymore is one thing - desupporting an OS that is used globally, just because you want to sell more copies of the "next edition" is extortion (something that MS is good at).
I've no doubt Vista WILL be more secure and prettier (and full of DRM stuff) - whether that will be enough to cause folks to junk their entire working systems and buy new hardware and software at considerable expense is a moot point. Particularly as they now have an increasingly viable alternative.
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Sorry to resurrect this thread, it looks as though it has been once already. I just wanted to ask Keef if you've tried using the Debian package management system called apt? Or were the packages you've installed not in their database? Also I'm surprised that you're having to use jack to get alsa working with an emu10k1 - are you running alsa as a module or compiled into the kernel?
Mac, I must admit I've really been spoiled by using Gentoo. It doesn't get much easier than typing emerge <packagename>. The tricky part is getting it all set up, but if you follow the instructions there usually isn't a problem. It's a process I would recommend to anyone who's interested in the nuts and bolts of their computer OS.
Mac, I must admit I've really been spoiled by using Gentoo. It doesn't get much easier than typing emerge <packagename>. The tricky part is getting it all set up, but if you follow the instructions there usually isn't a problem. It's a process I would recommend to anyone who's interested in the nuts and bolts of their computer OS.
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Get it NOW!!!!!
If anyone wants to give it a go now, you can get Vista (& Office 2007) now here for free......
Unclenelli - I've removed the link you posted, which I'm sure you did with the best of intentions. However, PPRuNe policy is not to allow anything that might be construed as encouraging or facilitating an illegal activity.
If I may quote Danny on this:
SD
PS - I'm just experimenting into Non-Windows OSs myself - got a spare desktop and a lappy running Fedora Core 5 and GNOME desktop (also got KDE loaded which I have yet to try)
Unclenelli - I've removed the link you posted, which I'm sure you did with the best of intentions. However, PPRuNe policy is not to allow anything that might be construed as encouraging or facilitating an illegal activity.
If I may quote Danny on this:
Anyone wanting to get cracks or hacks to something they would otherwise have to pay for then they can go and find a website dedicated to that.
PS - I'm just experimenting into Non-Windows OSs myself - got a spare desktop and a lappy running Fedora Core 5 and GNOME desktop (also got KDE loaded which I have yet to try)
Last edited by unclenelli; 1st Apr 2006 at 00:09.
Some more money for Capt PPRuNe
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PS - I'm just experimenting into Non-Windows OSs myself - got a spare desktop and a lappy running Fedora Core 5 and GNOME desktop (also got KDE loaded which I have yet to try)
Like most people I do buy music and video media but I will not be dictated to on how I want to watch / listen to the same.
I have tried Ubuntu and put a fair bit of time into it but find it a bit awkward to setup and instal apps, also the graphical interface could be nicer. I am going to give Suse a go next. Any other recommendations??? I am reasonably IT competent but have precious little Unix knowledge.
I am impressed with the up and coming “free” & open source software. I am using Open Office 2.0, Opera (web browser) and Thunderbird (email) and definitely prefer it over Microsofts' offerings.
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
Fujiflyer, there is a very useful website that details and de-mystifies the various Linux distributions here.
I put a link in the FAQ thread, but probably worth mentioning again.
I put a link in the FAQ thread, but probably worth mentioning again.
Some more money for Capt PPRuNe
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Saab Dastard & Cheerio, thanks for that info.'
I'm going to try a few of the "easier" distro's starting with Suse and Linspire. Once I've tried a few I'll install the one I prefer on all the family's computers (3 desktops & 1 lappy).
Fuji
Quick edit: (Cheerio, I've just downloaded Suse 10.1 Beta 9)
I'm going to try a few of the "easier" distro's starting with Suse and Linspire. Once I've tried a few I'll install the one I prefer on all the family's computers (3 desktops & 1 lappy).
Fuji
Quick edit: (Cheerio, I've just downloaded Suse 10.1 Beta 9)
