Islander crash in Antigua
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: OXFORD
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have a few hundred hours flying the BN2a26 (piston), I think VP-MON was a piston also? Regarding VMCA it is 43 knots. Climb on single engine with flaps up on one engine, propellor feathered, YVSE is 65 knots.
Clearly from the pictures the right engine was not feathered. Whilst in flight I have had a right engine loose power and yaw is significant however rudder, right to left everything forward (then left to right having identified, verified feather the engine). On my flight as I was in the cruise I trouble shooted before feather, I applied carb heat and within a few seconds (felt like forever)power was restored. It focussed my mind though. I have also shut down an engine (again starboard) at FL12 feathered the engine and she flies perfectly well albeit in this case I was in the descent - the piston Islander will only maintain 5300ft on one engine.
Water ingress. Our Islander suffers from water ingress espiecally after heavy rain. The seal around the fuel cap is the normal culprit (and yes we get it changed regurlary). There are 4 fuel drains on the ac. Often after rain we can remove several drains full of water - you have to be very careful you actually have fuel. Also due to the baffling water will rest inside the tank, sometimes we taxi the aircraft and do more fuels drains.
In this case it was reported there had been heavy rain just before the accident, a possible cause might thus be water ingress. If starboard engine failed or lost power shortly after take off the pilot must react quickly with considerable rudder and everything forward, flaps up, then the rest of the immediate actions. She should be manageable espiecally with a VMCA of 43 knots unless there were other problems.
Clearly from the pictures the right engine was not feathered. Whilst in flight I have had a right engine loose power and yaw is significant however rudder, right to left everything forward (then left to right having identified, verified feather the engine). On my flight as I was in the cruise I trouble shooted before feather, I applied carb heat and within a few seconds (felt like forever)power was restored. It focussed my mind though. I have also shut down an engine (again starboard) at FL12 feathered the engine and she flies perfectly well albeit in this case I was in the descent - the piston Islander will only maintain 5300ft on one engine.
Water ingress. Our Islander suffers from water ingress espiecally after heavy rain. The seal around the fuel cap is the normal culprit (and yes we get it changed regurlary). There are 4 fuel drains on the ac. Often after rain we can remove several drains full of water - you have to be very careful you actually have fuel. Also due to the baffling water will rest inside the tank, sometimes we taxi the aircraft and do more fuels drains.
In this case it was reported there had been heavy rain just before the accident, a possible cause might thus be water ingress. If starboard engine failed or lost power shortly after take off the pilot must react quickly with considerable rudder and everything forward, flaps up, then the rest of the immediate actions. She should be manageable espiecally with a VMCA of 43 knots unless there were other problems.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montsegur
Posts: 313
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just interested to know the regs governing air taxi/charter ops in this case.
$$$$$$$$$$$ !!! VP-MON was 43 years old. A brand new Twotter or DO-228 cost about !8M US$ used about 2M US$ so when you can get a BN2 for 200K US$, do the math. The BN2 properly maintained and operated is adequate for most Caribbean OPS. The Montserrat runway is quite challenging, for that reason I would never board one of those planes to that destination as well as other short and crazy airstrips in the region (Saba island
). I always do my research before embarking on my "air ventures in the Carib..." and many times opted for a safer....... boat ride
.
). I always do my research before embarking on my "air ventures in the Carib..." and many times opted for a safer....... boat ride.
Last edited by Melax; 14th Oct 2012 at 01:43.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Age: 70
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Following another landing incident today Fly Montserrat have been grounded.
Fly Montserrat grounded by regional aviation authority | The Trinidad Guardian Newspaper
Fly Montserrat grounded by regional aviation authority | The Trinidad Guardian Newspaper
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: On the Bay, Vic, Oz
Age: 80
Posts: 415
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"The flight, 5M 2109, from Antigua with seven passengers, landed normally and decelerated along the runway. The pilot thought that he felt a minor vibration and as a precaution, he let the aircraft roll gently onto the grass, where the passengers disembarked. There were no injuries and no damage to the aircraft."
From Caribarena.com news portal;
Link to the the latest incident and photo:
UK Investigators Lead FlyMontserrat Probe | CARIBARENA ANTIGUA
Hmmm, 3 runway excursions in less than 2 years (w/Official reports...
) an airplane is normally supposed to land and stop on the runway so when the brakes fail to slow the aircraft down, and the pilot use the up-sloping terrain and grass as an emergency brake
the authorities will frown upon your operation 
.
"We weren't slowing down," said passenger Shaun Andres a United States national. "...As the end of the runway approached it started to get a little hairy on board."
UK Investigators Lead FlyMontserrat Probe | CARIBARENA ANTIGUA
Hmmm, 3 runway excursions in less than 2 years (w/Official reports...
) an airplane is normally supposed to land and stop on the runway so when the brakes fail to slow the aircraft down, and the pilot use the up-sloping terrain and grass as an emergency brake the authorities will frown upon your operation .
Last edited by Melax; 17th Oct 2012 at 14:16.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: the balmy beautiful south
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Montserrat runway is quite challenging, for that reason I would never board one of those planes to that destination as well as other short and crazy airstrips in the region (Saba island). I always do my research before embarking on my "air ventures in the Carib..." and many times opted for a safer....... boat ride.
Winair is the only scheduled service and I can personally attest to the very high experience and training requirements that Captains require to fly in there. As well, there are very strict and conservative wind guidelines for both landing and take-off.
Montserrat is not nearly as challenging as Saba. As for the training/culture of FlyMontserrat...I'm not sure
Indeed that kind of record speaks for itself , I'm sure that Winair is a well run Operation, However you are not going to find me (unless dire emergency
) on a plane landing in Saba, it is inherently a dangerous airport and we all know that there are sometimes situations well beyond the best pilot or aircraft capabilities, and there is little margin for error there, so for me a slow boat ride
is preferable to changing my diapers upon landing ...
, I'm sure that Winair is a well run Operation, However you are not going to find me (unless dire emergency) on a plane landing in Saba, it is inherently a dangerous airport and we all know that there are sometimes situations well beyond the best pilot or aircraft capabilities, and there is little margin for error there, so for me a slow boat ride is preferable to changing my diapers upon landing ...
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Minimums
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For 17PA; it may seem that way to the naked eye. I am not too sure about Montserrat's SOP's but usually for the Bare Noise 2 (BN-2) Vr 65kts; climb out 85 kts(which is more than the blue line); pass 1000AGL 100kts cruise climb.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: OXFORD
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Melax, I think your speeds are very optimistic. Take off safety speed 65 kts agreed, climb is usually 70 kts. I am unaware of a Bn2 that will achieve 100 kts cruise climb - certainly not loaded to max payload. Vy is 75 kts. POH indicates 95 kts for a comfortable climb but at max weight I suspect the rate of climb will be bearly 100/200 fpm.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Down East
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was taught , and have always practiced ,using the full RLA and it has served me well over the years. The saying goes " any rwy behind you on the roll is the most useless real estate in the world".
Also a proper W&B within the C of G limits is critical ,for max effective control ,during T/O with an engine failure.
A pre T/O briefing should be done on every flt to help you visualize and review your options.
Never become complacent. Life is too darn good to waste on dying.
Also a proper W&B within the C of G limits is critical ,for max effective control ,during T/O with an engine failure.
A pre T/O briefing should be done on every flt to help you visualize and review your options.
Never become complacent. Life is too darn good to waste on dying.
another option (not really taught during training) is, "RUNWAY LENGHT AVAILABILITY PERMITTING", to close power on the remaining live engine and land the "glider" back onto the runway.
Last I checked, in just about any piston twin, (at rotation, shy of a positive rate and gear up), an engine failure is always managed thus regardless of whether there is adequate runway remaining or not.
I've never not seen it taught in training.
Last edited by 421dog; 27th Oct 2012 at 01:41.
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Texas
Age: 51
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have a lot of time in islanders in Alaska, there is no vmc on islanders it's below the stall speed which if I remember right is 39kts, vx,vy, with one engine or both running is the same 65kts, this airplane at gross weight with one engine at idle make a full takeoff in less than 2000ft , done it for check ride.not to point a finger but this is one of the safest airplanes I know of
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wales/now Canada
Age: 82
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I flew an Islander in HongKong ( KaiTak ) for many years.The takeoff brief always concluded with "in the event of an engine failure, fire or other serious malfunction after takeoff I will land straight ahead if sufficient runway is available" This was deemed sacriledge by CAD who said that after V1 a single-engine climb was always required as nobody could accurately judge the amount of runway left available and whether or not it would be sufficient. Suffice to say that if 9,000 feet or so was available I would be landing on it in the event of engine failure or similar emergency. Airmanship is only commonsense after all is said and done.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Bury St. Edmunds
Age: 64
Posts: 539
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Happened to an HS748 at Stansted a number of years ago. Massive engine fire after rotation but before the wheels were retracted. Crusty captain took control from FO (whose instinct was to do the EFATO drills) i.e. clean-up and climb away on one. Captain thought otherwise and landed on what was left of the runway ahead. Wise move.....
Later evidence suggested that they might not have had time to do even an abbreviated circuit before the spar burned through. The ac was totaled but all survived.
Moral of the story......use the whole lenght of the runway every time even if under 99.999% of take-offs you won't need it. Runway behind you ain't much good when you need it in front. Same goes for fuel in the tanks......but that's another story!
Later evidence suggested that they might not have had time to do even an abbreviated circuit before the spar burned through. The ac was totaled but all survived.
Moral of the story......use the whole lenght of the runway every time even if under 99.999% of take-offs you won't need it. Runway behind you ain't much good when you need it in front. Same goes for fuel in the tanks......but that's another story!
Last edited by Madbob; 9th Nov 2012 at 08:16.