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Brazilian ATC

Old 8th Aug 2008, 20:20
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Brazilian ATC

Bom dia!

Flying regulary to Brazil, Im wondering when ATC will get better in this country.

Having controlers not being able to speak at least some more than standard phrases that are not really standard (what about ICAO Level 4), being totally inefficient in terms of separation, flow management, etc.

Did anything change after the accidents or is erverything forgotten and continued as always?

Brazil considers it self to become part of the first world and they are on a good way to do so, but sorry ATC is sometimes worse than in Africa.

Does it need a third serious accident? Hopefully not!

HURZ
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Old 9th Aug 2008, 00:17
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HURZ

Does it need a third serious accident? Hopefully not!
A bit melodramatic don't you think? Congonhas had nothing to do with ATC.

However, I do agree with your view that ATC needs to improve here, and soon. It's not likely to though, because it isn't "sexy" enough and politicians don't see any benefit from improving the system.

Low investment, military control, poor salaries, poor training, very little incentive for people to continue with a career in ATC, the list is long. Brazil will only become ICAO 4 compliant in 2011, as per the plan presented to ICAO, so don't expect much before then.

Contrary to popular belief, most of the ATC equipment here is actually very modern, but.......there aren't enough radars to provide reliable 100% coverage, there are no back-up systems in the event of failures, power supplies are precarious in many places, and maintenance is frequently held up due to the lack of spare parts.

The sad fact is that the authorities are more interested in adding shopping centres to airport terminals than they are in improving the aviation infrastructure, and that's unlikely to change in the short term. Maybe the proposed audit next year will cause a rethink.

Boa sorte
Alemaobaiano
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Old 9th Aug 2008, 00:28
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I agree with HURZ. I've been flying down here for a few years now and it totally sucks and it doesn't look like it will get better anytime soon. Brazil is not a "serious" country. The country doesn't take aviation seriously, most in the industry are amateurs and things never change.
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Old 9th Aug 2008, 04:35
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Quote: A bit melodramatic don't you think? Congonhas had nothing to
do with ATC.

But maybe with INFRAERO?

Was there not an issue with a F50 that skidded of the RWY a day befor?
The RWY was not finished (not grooved) on TAMs worst day and should not have been opened?

Yes TAM was not only because of the RWY conds, but they contibuted to the worst...

Isnt there a crew advisory for VARIG, TAM, GOL not to land at Rios domestic airport when its wet? Same RWY conditions as in Congonhas.

???

HURZ
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Old 9th Aug 2008, 04:58
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Actually the runway in Santos Dumont is way better and it's shorter too. It was built by Boeing I believe.
No matter what they do to the runway in Congonhas, it doesn't get better. Like I said before, Brazil is not a serious country.
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Old 9th Aug 2008, 11:58
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HURZ

Don't worry, I'm in total agreement with you, but the original question was about ATC services, hence my comments.

The whole aviation infrastructure here is suffering from lack of investment and planning, and many decisions are for political advantage instead of safety. Have you seen the state of the runway at Porto Alegre recently? They have a beautiful new terminal, but landing would be easier on a dirt strip. The promised Cat III ILS at Curitiba hasn't happened, the restrictions imposed on Congonhas after the accident have been quietly dropped (press release usually on Sunday at 1700....football time) and the airspace working group has made a few cosmetic changes to airways.

Brazil isn't serious about aviation, as varigflier says. The head of ANAC is a political appointee, not a professional from the world of aviation, so he owes his position to those who appointed him and not to the benefit of the country. Long term planning doesn't exist, the far horizon is the next election, and EVERYTHING is geared to getting re-elected. If a project is not highly visible it isn't going to happen, and aviation infrastructure isn't going to buy votes in poor rural areas.

Alemaobaiano

BTW, it was an ATR of Pantanal that skidded off at Congonhas.
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Old 10th Aug 2008, 16:02
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Talking with some friends they say it is getting better, albeit slowly.

Problem is that, as alemaobaiano said, this kind of investment is not something easily seen by the general public, and thus, politics will not give priority.

Last week we had a power outage at Sao Paulo approach control, and back-up generators did not work. Departures were suspended for almost two hours and no arriving traffic was allowed into the terminal area. Fortunately it was a lazy Saturday afternoon, otherwise chaos would have ensued.

Cheers

BF
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Old 18th Aug 2008, 22:59
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Hello,

are there any ATC Controlers out there who could give an impression on their day to day business etc and give their point of few (like equipment, duty and rest times, working conditions)

Or maybe even an official?

I think all answers so far are from pilots in the thread...

The waiting

HURZ
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Old 19th Aug 2008, 11:29
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Thumbs down

I don't think so ATC controllers will spend their time here, unfortunatelly. They are too busy managing their second job after their duty at the ATC, trying to feed their families on a decent level.

Btw, only very few of them have a proper level of english knowlege to post here, very sad...

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Old 19th Aug 2008, 13:02
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HURZ . . . are you obsessed with Brasilian ATC? . . . Spend some time criss crossing Africa and mainland China and you will quickly appreciate that ATC communications in Brasil [run by Air Force personnel] meet ICAO Level-4 English comprehension. This is not to say that there's no room for improvement. And take a look at your own grammatical errors in your postings. Jawohl.

As a last resort, you can always learn some Portuguese and then be able to communicate with Brasil ATC in greater depth.

The Portuguese language has always been music to my ears.
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Old 19th Aug 2008, 19:38
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GlueBall,

do you have a problem???

I think this forum is for professional discussions and not for getting funny with each other (ooops maybe a grammar mistake).

Im sorry, but my native language is not english, so please feel free to keep my mistakes and enjoy them.

Well I know Africa, China etc very well, and indeed, there is also room for improvement and belive it or not, even in germany.

However this is the South America forum...

Ach ja, eu fala um poco portuguese tambem, e voce? But my grammar might not be correct...bosta! But its enough to do ATC com in this wonderful language if needed.

Enjoy your UTC +8 Time Zone

HURZ
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 17:29
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Question what about Ilhus?

I'm a frequent SLF and living in Ilhus. I've opened a thread in the SLF-boards about this topic but maybe here is the better place.
Could HURZ and Alemaobaiano, as they seem to be well informed about Brazilian aviation, please enlighten me about ANAC's plans to allow landing on IOS only in good weather?
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 22:43
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Nunki

Sorry, I haven't heard anything about that, but I'm meeting someone who might know tomorrow, so I'll see what I can do.

Alemaobaiano
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Old 11th Sep 2008, 12:28
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Reading a lot about Brazilian ATC made me wonder how things go in other latinamerican countries. Is it the same, better, or even worse?

Kone
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Old 12th Sep 2008, 11:11
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Nunki

Well, the restrictions were put in place on September 2nd, no more night flights and limits on operations in low visiblity, although nobody I've spoken to has any real idea why. GOL are worse affected, and they have cancelled their early morning flight.

There doesn't seem to be any real reason behind this. Perhaps someone rich and influential doesn't want their beauty sleep interrupted and had a quick word with "friends in high places".

Alemaobaiano
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Old 12th Sep 2008, 11:21
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Kone

You might want to start a new thread on that subject so that you would get a wider range of answers. I can't tell you anything concrete about the other countries, just my impressions.

Alemaobaiano
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