Move to Canada as a pilot
 

Hello, has anyone here successfully immigrated to Canada and gotten a flying job there? Me and my wife are looking into applying for PR via Express Entry, I hold an FAA commercial and ICAO ATP licenses, 8,500 TT, typed on the 787, 737 and Embraers. I'd try for a job with the airlines, if possible. I haven't done any license conversions yet, I want to wait and see if anyone has done it before and how realistic a chance I'd have to move there if we were succesful on our PR application. I'm aware of the overall salaries and conditions for pilots in Canada. Thanks!

Lots. I have flown and continue to fly with a few Americans who have come north of the border, and I've worked with plenty more who decided to move back Stateside. Pilot hiring in Canada is still strong, although the delays from Boeing are certainly going to be felt into next year, which may slow things down, but I doubt it to a point where it stops. That is especially so at the commuter and charter operators who, according to Mrs.+TSRA who works for a charter company, are hiring pilots they would never have given a second glance pre-pandemic. She says any good, experienced pilot will find no problems gaining employment.

The biggest issue you'll find is that starting at the bottom of the list at an airline, it'll be awhile until you see the left seat. I know a few people may call out to say Air Canada is upgrading at 3 years seniority right now, but they're all late 20s and early 30s, so once those spots are filled, the upgrades will go back to 10-15 years. My gut tells me that'll happen in about two years or so once the AC retirements begin to slow down. WestJet is sitting at 9 years right now, 12 for reserve out of Calgary, but who knows what the merger with Sunwing will bring. We'll know better on that front end of October when the merged list drops from the arbiter. Porter is flying high right now, but we'll see what the potential closure of the Island airport in Toronto does with them. I wish them nothing but luck, but they're edging on the typical Canadian growth story of too much, too soon. Air Transat seems to be in a touch of hot water with some layoffs announced (no pilots), but my guess is a trip through our bankruptcy court will set them in the right direction. And then there is Flair. If you listen to anyone in industry (myself included), they'll likely not be around in a year. But that year is now 5 years long, so they continue to prove all us experts wrong. They've got the quickest upgrades in town for the airlines, and I'll admit their reserve seems sweet - taxi an airplane from remote parking to the terminal and call it a day. But I still wouldn't stake my career on them.

Can you say what the motivation is/was for this particular group of pilots you worked with ?

Good question. I’ve not spoken to every American pilot I’ve flown with about their motivations, but those I have spoken with it always came down to family. Either their parents had moved to Canada, or they had married a Canadian, or some ply on the theme. To my knowledge I’ve not worked with anyone who came north to build time for the 1,500 hour requirement.

+TRSA,

I would've suspected that. Family is a strong motivator but...passing on a US airline career for sake of family is a bold stroke long term. Particularly when the two countries are adjoining and travel between is so easy and short.

But very interesting to learn about what people think and do surrounding a flying career. I hope my countrymen you know who made that decision are happy and prosperous when they set the parking brake for the last time.

You get no arguments from me there. I also agree that it’s a bold move to stay here. Many of us Canadian pilots would give almost anything to move south of the border. I’ve seriously considered it, but my wife won’t do it. Happy wife, happy life or cheaper to keep her, take your pick! Haha

American military pilot here about to get out and looking at possibly immigrating to CA to be an airline pilot. +TSRA any way you can put me in contact with someone that has done it so I can talk specifics? My sister is a Canadian citizen that lives in Vancouver Island and I'd like to move to the west coast.

Having managed a cross-border corporate flight department, no way I’d recommend a move to Canada for a pilot. Terrible salary and benefits, expensive housing (YVR is among the ten most expensive in the world) and few opportunities, which explains the poor pay. Everyone of my Canadians would have moved south.

Hi Quiviris,

I unfortunately don't know any of the american pilots I've flow with well enough to put you in contact with them. It's an unfortunate part of being a pilot for a 2000+ pilot department that socialization begins and ends with the pairing, and I can count on one hand how many times I've shared my phone number with another pilot. That actually sounds kind of sad when I type that out, as though I'm some kind of recluse, but I find most of us just go our own ways after a pairing.

Yep, and imagine how it works with a pilot group of 17,000.

Pilots use to be cool

330,

I don't think the lack of socialization outside of work is a negative reflection on pilots as a group. The organization of the job isn't conducive to getting to know someone well enough to arrange non-work interactions.

In a large airline, in a large base and in a large category (airplane and base) you may fly with someone one time and they literally never so much as walk through your field of vision again; you just don't get to know them well enough in the time at work to know if they're socializing material. This doesn't mean you think they're not cool.

I flew with many very nice people but just didn't know them at all. In 31 years, I socialized with exactly two fellow pilots: one who built houses on the side and built the house where my wife and I lived for 30 years...and a F/O who was just a great guy ( and likely the sharpest pilot I ever shared a cockpit with). We just seemed to hit it off and he moved mountains to be the F/O on my retirement flight.

At least I picked two great ones to associate with outside work.

I thought I would ask my question here since this was the most relevant topic even though it's a bit outdated.

Some time ago, I started working for a very good airline in Asia and just recently I was upgraded as a captain on 320.

A few months ago, my Canadian PR application was approved and now I have my PR but still working for the airline in Asia.

I'm very happy with my company and where I live but at the same time I want to eventually get a Canadian passport.

I was wondering if you guys have any advice for me on my next move.

My initial thought is to keep working for my current employer for the next 2 years to gain more CA experience and enjoy the financial benenfits and then move to Canada in order not to lose the opportunity to get my passport after 3 years of living in Canada.

I know there is no chance for a DEC postion in Canadian airlines and that's the main reason I havent made up my mind fully.

Thanks in advance for your inputs.

That's an interesting spot you're in Maddogrider. I suppose you have to ask yourself what is more important: the money or the passport?

The issue you'll face coming back to Canada and joining the airlines is, like everywhere, seniority. Although the OP started this thread over a year ago, not much has changed, and it is still a very relevant thread. You have your two choices: come back now and get your number, or wait and put yourself in a position to wait a very long time for the left seat again. Waiting two years from now would put you smack in the middle of where my financial advisor believes the next recession will be, so you might come back to find there are no jobs. Of course, people in finance are always saying that the sky will fall, and they only need to be right once to be considered a savant. Thus, you're back to the original question: what is more important to you?

Regardless of your answer, here is what I think is the most up-to-date view of the industry. Take it with a grain of salt though. Winter is coming, heck it's here in some spots, and once that snow falls for real across the country, it's anyone's guess at how the industry looks in spring.

Air Canada has hired a lot of younger pilots in the past few years, and from what I've been shown their peak retirement wave has or will crest in the next year or two. That's a whole lot more pilots younger and ahead of you, meaning that if you did go to AC, you might be waiting a very long time for the left seat again, if that's important to you. A few friends over at AC all agree that the next 15 year FO is about to arrive or already has arrived on property, and they don't mean the 15-year waiting to bypass reserve either. The good news here is even if they're past peak retirements, the wave lasts until something like 2032, so there is still time. Air Canada also has a lot of orders to be filled, which when combined with the retirements, may make those upgrades last a little longer. They're expected to take delivery of 35 aircraft next year, but those will be filled by those pilots on property and those hired next year (obviously). Once all those younger pilots upgrade onto the widebodies, things will come to a grinding halt for years, which is why my buddies to believe the next 15-year FO is already there.

WestJet don't have as many retirements, but the ones they do have peak in two to three years. Their retirement window is also much shorter, something like 2026 to 2032 and within that window I seem to remember the highest projection was something like 300 in one year. Back in full swing WestJet was hiring that in one year, so retirements won't make as much of an impact as they did at AC. WestJet is not hiring right now, but the rumour is that they will be from next year and, again, that's a lot of younger pilots ahead of you. WestJet is also famous for their 10 to 12 year upgrades which, even with their Max-10 and 787 order won't do too much to stop long upgrades once they're all on property, the first Max-10 is supposed to arrive Q3 or Q4 next year and the next 787 by 2029 or 2030, but that assumes the FAA doesn't have more to say regarding certification of the Max-10. There is also some talk that with delivery of the Max-10s, the fleet will shrink as the -700s and early -800s are returned, potentially negating the impact the retirements will have, and making the situation for future upgrades even worse.

Porter is your other serious option. They don't have any future orders that I'm aware of and at this point have maybe one or two more E195s to take delivery of, so internal growth will stagnate. They also seem to be a younger pilot group - much like WestJet was back in the early 2000s, so movement will rely on attrition. They're being very aggressive right now to find the profitable routes, and make a foothold, which is why they're always in the news. They're making good progress, and have an amazing onboard product, but they're helped along by having warranties on those bright white jets. Once those warranties disappear, their CASM will increase and it remains to be seen whether their product will suffer as a result. They have enough experience though to know how to counter that CASM increase, but they're also prime targets for some investment firm to come in and skin them to bone, just like Onex did with WestJet. I hope I'm wrong on this one, I really want to see Porter stay with the Dulce family. I'd like to think Michael Deluce will stick around for as long as his old man has, but money does a lot of talking, and they've tried to sell Porter before - famously to WestJet before Encore was started - so I believe it's just a dollar amount they're waiting for.

Your other options for major airlines are Flair, Canadian North, and Air North. It's anyone's guess as to where Flair will be in two months, nevermind two years, and Canadian North just issued a layoff notice earlier this month. I don't see them going anywhere, but they won't be hiring any time soon. Air North fills an important niche market, and those pilots accept upgrades as long as WestJet for the lifestyle they live, so those jobs are hard to come by.

I really appreciate you taking the time on writing and sharing this detailed and thorough insight.

I now have a somewhat clear idea of what to expect.

Getting the passport is a no brainer for me. I have a 5-year period within which, I have to stay for 3 years in Canada to be eligible for citizenship.

I'm not sure if I want to keep flying till I'm 50 and since I'm 33 now, I have to keep in mind the possibility of not getting the chance to upgrade in majors in Canada at least for a good bit of the time I have left; hence inclining towards staying where I am now for the next two years and enjoying my newly achieved and probably last chance of command and then come back to pursue the passport.

Unless you ACTUALLY PHYSICALLY present in Canada for the majority of the year, you are NOT eligible for Canadian citizenship at the end.

Furthermore, unlike a citizenship, if you are not actively living in Canada, it will be revoked after some time. Any by revoke, I mean the CBSA officer will send you to secondary, and the CBSA minister delegate at secondary will inform you, on the spot, that you PR status has being revoked and you can challenge it, but until the decision is overturned (highly unlikely), you are not allowed to hold the status.

Permanent residence is PERMANENT RESIDENCE. You can't leave off in another country and maintain the status. Even if you enter as airline crew, CBSA is allowed, and will "draw inference", and it will be against you. (not paying income tax in Canada, not maintaining physical residency, not holding permanent residential address etc)

Asturias,
Thanks a lot for your input.

Regarding the retirement age, it is just my guess of how long I can keep up with all the night flights and the physical burdens that come with it over time. In my company, there is no seniority-based bidding system, nor is there a salary raise as my experience in the company increases. So my roster and income at the moment is the same as a senior captain who joined the company 20 years ago. (Of course there are salary increases every now and then but again, every captain receives the same increment regardless of the experience they have in the company)

Coming from a third-world country, I absolutely need a second passport for many personal/financial/even work-related reasons with all the restrictions/obstacles I face with my current citizenship. I have been very very lucky to be in this position I am right now and I have worked really hard to achieve it. Not a lot of people in my country have the chance to get out and explore different opportunities.

As you have noticed, I'm very happy with my state of life at the moment and this makes the decision to let it all go and persue the Canadian passport absolutely strenuous considering the fact that I have also made a lot of sacrifices and efforts to achieve the required qualifications to get the Canadian PR.

I think I should be giving this whole Canadian passport thing a second thought after +TSRA and your comments, comparing what I could lose/gain in each scenario with an open mind.

I can relate. I'll be 51 in April, and it's not getting any easier.