This is not about Emirates and Air Canada, Its about two cultures so far apart that there can be little, if any meaningfull comunication between the two. On one side there is Canada, a democracy founded on civil rights and the dignity of the individual, the other side, a feudal tribal society which doesnt understand that one does not obtain ones way using the methods which work internally, not PC for sure, but Ive done my time in this neck of the woods. As for those folks whos self interest distorts their views, I trust you will of course be staying in the Sand box when you retire, no? I didnt think so.

clunckdriver...

:D

From the Edmonton Journal:

(Kind of funny how this one went so smoothly our "friends" in the U.A.E. could learn from the Qatar Government how to negotiate in good faith)

Qatar, Canada reach aviation agreement


By Matthew Fisher, Postmedia News November 12, 2010

Canada and Qatar have quietly signed an aviation agreement that will allow Qatar Airways to fly three passenger flights and three cargo flights a week to and from the Gulf sheikdom.

Talks were successfully concluded on Oct. 25 after only three days of negotiation, according to Qatari news media.

The quick agreement with Qatar was in sharp contrast to a dispute between Ottawa and the United Arab Emirates over flights to and from Canada.

It caused the UAE to kick the Canadian military out of Camp Mirage, a key logistical base in Dubai that had been used for nine years to support the war in Afghanistan.

Before talks broke down last month, Canada and the UAE had haggled for five years over greater access to Canadian airports for Emirate Airlines and Etihad Airways -- an expansion that was strongly opposed by Air Canada and Transport Canada. Air carriers in Britain, France, Germany and the Netherlands also have strongly objected to the rapid expansion of flights to Europe by Gulf carriers.

Canada had not publicized the new air agreement with Qatar, perhaps fearing potential further fallout from its escalating dispute with the UAE.

Newspapers in the UAE have not published any details of the air agreement between Canada and Qatar although media there usually cover the aviation industry very closely.

© Copyright (c) The Edmonton Journal

Read more: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...#ixzz15CP7GkZs

From the Canadian Globe and Mail
The Harper government has added fuel to the heated diplomatic feud with the United Arab Emirates, accusing it of subsidizing its airline and arguing that allowing it to fly more often to Canada would have cost “tens of thousands of jobs” here.

The government’s charge that the UAE government subsidizes the Emirates airline will only fan the dispute, as both have for years vociferously denied charges of subsidy levelled by airlines in Europe, Australia, and Canada, which are fighting the Mideast airline’s aggressive drive for market share.


The diplomatic feud was sparked by Canada’s rejection of the UAE’s demand for its two airlines, Emirates and Etihad, to fly daily routes from Dubai into three Canadian cities. In response, the UAE booted the Canadian Forces out of a Dubai base it had been using to stage operations in Afghanistan, and slapped visa restrictions on Canadian visitors.

The spat has split the Harper cabinet, as Defence Minister Peter MacKay lobbied hard for the government to allow the UAE expanded landing rights – and asserted that the refusal deeply damaged relations.

But yesterday, the Conservative government turned up the tone.

In Lisbon for a NATO summit, Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon said the negotiations for the landing rights broke down because Canadians would have lost jobs.

“I made it perfectly clear that we’re not prepared to put Canadian workers out of their jobs by allowing a subsidized foreign airline to literally flood the Canadian market,” he said.

And in the House of Commons, Government House Leader John Baird suggested Canada’s airline industry would have been decimated: “It would have cost Canada literally tens of thousands of jobs and was not in Canadians’ best interest,” he said. “That is why we said no.”

Mr. Baird’s assertion amounts to an argument that the increased flights – daily from Dubai to Toronto, Calgary, and Vancouver instead of three times a week to Toronto – would devastate Canada’s airline industry. The Canadian competitor on overseas routes, Air Canada, employs 26,000, and the industry as a whole, 65,000.

But the Canadian government’s assertion that the UAE subsidizes airlines that use job-killing predatory practices to dump cheap flights on foreign markets will be a red flag to the UAE, which has been fighting this argument for years.

Competitors have claimed that Emirates gets low-cost subsidized fuel and financing from Dubai ruler Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum and favourable rates from its home-base airport in Dubai, but Emirates denies that. And it has become a hot political issue because European airlines and Air Canada are trying to preserve traffic into their European hub in Frankfurt, while Emirates – and the UAE government – are trying to establish Dubai as a major air-travel and tourism centre.

“The reality is some competitors, realizing that Emirates was emerging as a major competitive entrant, simply devised a plan, sans facts or evidence, to throw enough mud to ensure some of it stuck,” Emirates President Tim Clark said in a speech last year, adding that the claims are “usually fired from a grassy knoll in the Frankfurt area.”

Diplomats at the UAE’s embassy in Ottawa could not be reached for comment.

Emirates entered a fierce lobbying battle with Air Canada over the expanded landing rights, meeting with dozens of cabinet ministers and senior officials before their request was rejected in October.

Emirates insists its request would take up only about 2 per cent of Canada’s international passenger traffic, and wouldn’t devastate the industry here, but opponents said it would force Air Canada to sink resources into international competition, and perhaps cut less profitable routes to regional airports in Canada.

The Conservatives’ insistence that their decision to reject the UAE airlines would protect jobs appeared to place them in an unusual position – winning warm words from trade unions, but criticism from conservative free-market advocates.

Mark Milke, a policy analyst with the free-market Fraser Institute, said the issue of whether the UAE’s airlines are subsidized should affect the Canadian government’s decisions. But with all the claims and denials, the fact that Emirates is government-owned means the public has to take their word for it, or not.

If it isn’t subsidized, more foreign competition would be good for the industry and consumers by lowering prices and creating competition for better service, he said. But either way, he added, the Conservative government’s claims it would cost tens of thousands of jobs are exaggerated.

“That assumes that somehow you’re going to see the disappearance of WestJet and Air Canada. It’s fanciful,” he said. He likened the decision to the rejection of a foreign takeover of Saskatchewan’s Potash Corp. “It’s the kind of protectionist rhetoric that unfortunately the Tory government has become famous for.”

Yep...read that article.

I am pro free trade. But I want to quantify that it does not mean total unilateral free trade with any country on the planet. There are qualifying requirments for free trade. Basically each country has to have a similar socio-economic footprint. Otherwise barriers have to be erected.

Free trade between Can-US-Wester Europe is a no brainer. Free trade with China? Korea? Indonesia? India? UAE? Hmm... Maybe, but due dilligence is required. Alot of thse countries have a much cheaper footprint than the western countries because of their overall maturity and social policy.

I agree, MAYBE the assertion of "tens of thousands of jobs" to be lost is an exaggeration. But does it matter? Even if it would be only 5000 jobs, the point is the same. The UAE airlines are goverment owned. That is enough. It does not matter what assertions are made.

Even only 1 job! You do not want to be that one!

In your face all you air canada pinheads, the truth hurts!

Lol.. Sec 3... be nice! :)


I will admit Canada and other countries needs to work on being more competitive. But its tough when your trying to measure where the competitive level will be with places like China or UAE.

Contacted... good point, but this is a terrible aticle. I see the argument ... however this article and the author is deficient in many ways. Australia and Canada comparison as a vacation destination? You can tell right here that the author is not intelligent enough to see that there is a difference. One is in a deep freeze half the year when the other is not. Need I say more? I may not be right..and I certianly do not insist that I am as others do. However, this article does not ring intelligently. When I went to school, we learned that outtright competition based on uneven playing fields (economies, labor footprints, private vs public, etc), does not always work as an ideal, or is as simple as one might expect. As I have said many time.. free trade between similar socio-economic footprints is a no brainer. But then that's not the case here is it? When dealing with countries with unbalance trade platforms to your own, more analysis has to been done. Otherwise, you will just extinguish your own industry, just as been happening to N. America for the last 3 decades. You might say that is the price to pay to being competitive. But there would be a loss factor in the mean time that maybe the gov'ts are not willing to support. It would hurt our GDP in the end, and that is the bottom line. That is not to say that there is not a place for Emirates serving Canada.

Yes Emirates has a better platform and cheaper footprint and better service than Air Canada. But why? Does it mean that competitively Canada should allow EK whatever routes it wants without question? Every dollar EK makes goes to one man. The man that in fact, owns a whole country. Personally I am not comfortable with that. I am not saying EK should not fly to Calgary or whatever. In fact I believe, it was offered previously, but the frequency was not good enough.

This article is good, but its entirely pro free market. And that is not balanced. There are plenty of articles and books and economists that go the other-way too. Read "The Predatory State".

I am happy to see that the gov't is taking an analytical approach to this. The limitation at this time might be a way to open market share for others. Specifically those that would be better positioned that the UAE airlines. How about Air India? They are the market actually that UAE is serving. Or how about Turkish? They are a new Star Alliance member and have started a big growth push too. And they are perfectly located for flow-through. Even better than UAE possibly. Also being Star member, the traffic would be a codes share with AC.

I believe EK is not the only players at the poker table influencing this situation.

Remember a time when there were the odd home hardware shops and building supply outfits sprinkled around town?
Competition was a good thing and the consumer had a choice. One might even have said that the playing field was somewhat level.
In Canada, the government advertised 'let's all free enterprise'. Afterall, it was the ma and pa businesses that were the real employers in this country.
Then along came Home Depot.

Emirates wants to be the HOME DEPOT of the airline industry. If we don't hold in check who gets what in terms of air service agreements in Canada, we're fuct.

Emirates has sufficient services to Canada. Until that changes, they can piss off.

Willie :ok:

I recently flew on both Emirates and AC and in comparison AC can't hold a candle to the level of service Emirates provided. The cookie cutter figures, smiling faces and refreshing attitudes of the Flight Attendants alone was worth the journey. The Emirates economy meal was equivalent to or better than a J-class product on AC. The in flight entertainment on Emirates offered over 1200 choices. No thats not a misprint....1200 choices ! Not once did they have to reset the system interrupting every ones movie.

Not withstanding all the previously stated political / financial / labor law reasons for restricting Emirates access, I can fully understand why AC doesn't want to compete against them. They would go bankrupt in a heartbeat unless the Canadian government leveled the playing field which we all know isn't going to happen in this lifetime.

will you or those like you ever learn?

Most likely not, and the debate is mute for now.

It's clear that the reasons Emirates were kept out of Canada had much more to do with political naivety of an incompetent PM, then some altruistic stand for the jobs of ordinary Canadians, and against the aspirations of a threatening multinational company.

No flights for Emirates, period. Will it mean hard times for Emirates? hardly I think. Without Canada they posted a mid year profit that many North American carriers would only dream of. Is this financial success due to Government subsidies?, unfair market practices?, exploitation of their workforce?, yes all three you argue with some validity. However, the world is not so black and white, and these traits could easily describe Air Canada.

The gray and reasoned truth is that Air Canada and many other North American carriers are just as guilty of displaying the same traits bestowed on ones from the UAE. They are supported by governments who are just as willing to subside them, and cynically wash their hands as they wage cut throat competition. In fact the airline executives at AC, can't even learn anything new from the exploitative practices of UAE airline executives, their behaivor only kept in check by unions, who they dream about annihilating. If you want a really recent example of how Air Canada does business one could just point to the price fixing fine AC just got from the EU to the tune of 11 million dollars+.

Unions are illegal in the UAE, yet this of course never stopped our governments from having a military base in this country for the last 10 years????, or doing billions of dollars of trade with it????.

But that's all gone now, and those with the moral intellect of a 10 year old can tell others to piss off, or go home as we sit on a fitting moral high chair, overlooking our other great business relationship with far more acceptable countries like Qatar, who was granted just now flying rights into Canada????

Baird and Harper are buffoons who stand in front of this decision just like Bush did in front of that great banner, "mission accomplished"....Diplomatic relations with an important regional ally were flushed down the toilet...but it was worth it!! Now Emirates or Etihad won't eat Air Canada's lunch!, even if for that noble accomplishment Canadians are on the hook for over 300 million dollars!

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

Meanwhile in the desert.... The UAE's British airline executives mull new US destinations near the Canadian border....

....and in the US the local and federal governments eagerly court EK and EY in the hopes that their border cities will be the next UAE airline destinations. But they must wait in line with many, many others.

...and in Canada this.

An ominous flight pattern: Canadians opting for U.S. airports - The Globe and Mail

:eek:

Exactly WHAT do you feel is the purpose of a government if NOT to protect it's citizens from "the aspirations of a threatening multinational company"? (your words). Whether a military or economic attack, I sure as hell expect the politicians to stand up and do something!

HAHAHA yeah, let's hope our own companies go bankrupt so that ones in the Middle East can prosper! That would be great! Think of how much better that would be! But at least there would 1200 channels of onboard entertainment that NEVER needs to be reset! (um, sure. Be sure to tell that to our pursers if you want to get kicked in the balls.) Of course, all the movies are censored versions, and half of those are Bollywood crap, but hey 1200 sounds like a big number!

Believe me, the food, ICE, and especially the brainless FA's get really old, really quick. Another one sucked in by the shiny, superficial fakeness of Emirates Inc.

Let's face it, you're just bitter because you can't get 48hr layovers in YVR. Boo hoo.

"Important regional ally"? wtf? Yeah, they really stood tall for us. Until they wanted something they couldn't have, that is. No thanks. With allies like that...:yuk:

You don't believe the diatripe you just wrote do you 67 driver? I can't wait for Canada to kick Emirates out of its airports and airspace. From my vantage point I say Emirates are the babies and the Canadian government the opposite. It certainly didn't take the governement long to ink a deal with Qatar without fan fare. Hopefully its not to late to change all the 380 orders to 320's and start up a domestic program with all the pax in your region.

pcm, wow well thought out post.:rolleyes:

you have decimated my argument with your 5 year old debating skills.

"from your vantage point" that would be the view from your stroller I suppose.

The problem with people like you is that you believe Toronto is the geographic center of the universe. How sad for you that one day you'll discover otherwise.

continue to be the king of your little universe with your baseless opinions, little man.

nolimitholdem...

if the government wanted to "protect us" from companies like Emirates..why did they sign a deal with Qatar the next day?? how can you explain that??, why aren't you up in arms starting a thread about how we shouldn't let Qatar Airlines fly to Canada?? based on this companies labor relations record they make the exploitative practices of UAE airlines look like child's play.

Your comment about me wanting a layover in YVR is just creepy...what difference does it make where I come from or where I would want to stay in Canada?? or are you seeking to expose identities here? how about you tell us all where you come from, and what your name is?

You seek to confuse those who want information by taking others words completely out of context, you add in your belligerent rants against all things Emirates or UAE, yet just like me you work in the UAE for Emirates????, don't you think you should change your handle from nothinholdem to selfloather.

Your views don't stand for those of all expat Canadian pilots, especially ones with a brain.

enjoy your governments new relationship with the ultra democratic, ultra modern state of Qatar, do us all a favor and go work there!

by the way more children in Canada play soccer then hockey :eek:

oh! and look at the next thread in the Canada section, the EVIL Emirates wants to give CANADIANS jobs!!!! what a BAD BAD bunch of people, oh but don't apply your friends will need a visa to visit you!!!!, not like in Canada, where nobody needs a visa to come visit except......ehhhm...:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

A
Afghanistan
Albania
Algeria
Angola
Argentina
Armenia
Azerbaijan

B
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Belarus
Belize
Benin
Bhutan
Bolivia
Bosnia-Herzegovina
Brazil
Bulgaria
Burkina Faso
Burundi

C
Cambodia
Republic of Cameroon
Cape Verde
Central African Republic
Chad
Chile
China, People’s
Republic of
Colombia
Comoros
Congo, Democratic
Republic of the
Congo, Republic of the
Costa Rica
Cuba
Czech Republic

D
Djibouti
Dominica
Dominican Republic

E
East Timor
Ecuador
Egypt
El Salvador
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Ethiopia

F
Fiji

G
Gabon
Gambia
Georgia
Ghana
Grenada
Guatemala
Guinea
Guinea-Bissau
Guyana

H
Haiti
Honduras

I
India
Indonesia
Iran
Iraq
Israel (only Israeli citizens holding valid Israeli “Travel Document in lieu of National Passport”)
Ivory Coast

J
Jamaica
Jordan

K
Kazakhstan
Kenya
Kiribati
Korea, North
Kosovo
Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan

L
Laos
Lebanon
Lesotho
Liberia
Libya
Lithuania (holders of non-biometric passports only)

M
Macao S.A.R.
Macedonia
Madagascar
Malawi
Malaysia
Maldives Islands
Mali
Marshall Islands
Mauritania
Mauritius
Mexico
Micronesia, Fed. States
Moldova
Mongolia
Montenegro
Morocco
Mozambique
Myanmar (Burma)

N
Nauru
Nepal
Nicaragua
Niger
Nigeria

O
Oman

P
Pakistan
Palau
Palestinian Authority
Panama
Paraguay
Peru
Philippines
Poland (holders of non-biometric passports only)

Q
Qatar

R
Romania
Russia
Rwanda

S
Sao Tomé e Principe
Saudi Arabia, Kingdom of
Senegal
Serbia
Seychelles
Sierra Leone
Somalia
South Africa
Sri Lanka
Sudan
Surinam
Syria

T
Taiwan (except holders of the ordinary passport issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Taiwan that includes their personal identification number)
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Thailand
Togo
Tonga
Trinidad and Tobago
Tunisia
Turkey
Turkmenistan
Tuvalu

U
Uganda
Ukraine
United Arab Emirates
Uruguay
Uzbekistan

V
Vanuatu
Venezuela
Vietnam

Y
Yemen

Z
Zambia
Zimbabwe

Yawn... another crybaby from the Emirates... this is old news now. Nobodies going to hold your hand 6-7.... go back to the emirates forum the debate is over there now.

Willie, I remember. I think its great to support local business as much as possible. Its nice to have the Ikea's around too...but I like to try and support the little guy in the neighborhood as much as possible too. Makes for a better community. I think we should all promote as much as possible to buy local...and buy from a western state where countries stand for balanced social and economic standards. China is cheaper but not always better. Emirates is only better because of its lower cost footprint. If it supported the higher cost across the board that western companies have to (not just AC) it would be in the same boat.

67driver

Are you sure you're not the diplomatic adviser to the UAE government on Canadian affairs? It's positively creepy how similarly you both address this issue.

555 orange ,

Your words prove the last refuge of incompetence is denial.

Why does Qatar get flying rights to Canada then? explain? why be "fair" to this little gulf state that offers much less to Canada then the UAE ever did? why not give a country the does billions of dollars in trade with you, and that provides jobs for 10 of thousands of Canadians, and helps you out militarily better treatment, then a state that has done nothing for Canada in the region, and represents no commercial benefit whatsoever?

You have no answer for this I'm sure.

Instead you and so many like you spout off on these forums without a single word of evidence to support your baseless opinions. Then you revert to your intellectual age and start name calling when you find that there are people out there with a brain and access to a computer.

but as you said the debate is finished or "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!"

Good luck with your new Qatari friends!

engfireleft....

sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not a hired spokesman for the UAE. If that's what you want others to think so you can make your baseless opinions more credible then so be it.

767
 

You've been out in the sun too long pal! :rolleyes:

LOL.. the answers to your questions are obvious 6-7. Like I said, no one is going to hold your hand like your mommy did... this issue has been beaten to death already. Go and do some reading. Better yet, go read up on the IATA conference for Air Liberalization.

I think its more likely you have proven your own maturity level.... :rolleyes: