AC and WJ upgrade time
 

Hello folks,

What is the current timeline to upgrade for F/Os in AC and WJ?

Thanks!

AC is about 2 years to the 320 or EMJ - maybe Cseries too, they are less than a year away...

I *heard* Westjet is 8+ years.

That is a question that will have many variables involved. Currently there isn't much movement at the top at WJ and their growth isn't very big other than Internationally. Actually every time Swoop gets a jet, WJ looses one. Although WJ pilots are now in the seats. Last talk was 8+ years. But they may get to 6 or so when the old dogs start retiring which given they are all my age...that will be in the next 5 years or so.

As for AC, they are hiring 400+ this year and 400+ next year and mostly due to attrition. I just found out, by a very reliable source that for the first time in AC's history they are opening up the bid for internal guys with no bid loss to the 777 and 787. Whatever they do not fill internally will go to the street. That's right direct right seat 777 and 787 for new hires. Get your resumes in boys. EMB190 and 767 will start to leave this year as well as A220 arrives.

How many hours is AC requiring? Still minimum ATPL for the main company? What about AC Jazz? Altough I heard it's easier to move from Encore to AC than from AC Jazz to AC.

Found a way to release before the mandatory service? If yes, PM me lol

If you think your getting on at AC without an ATPL...dream again. Maybe a senior daddies son or daughter! But still thousands of resumes passing over AC's desk. Jazz pilots have flow through. If you came from Georgian its longer. Many WJ and Encore going to AC for the security and current upgrade time...not to mention working rules. WJ still very much works their group to the bone...(don't scream at me teal boys...heard it first hand from far too many buds there) When the pendulum shifts...who knows, but AC hiring close to a 1000 in the next 2 years. 4 years of crap pay to a nice life and most likely the best you will get in Canada.

There is more to life than 4 bars. Work - Life balance for instance.

@ C150driver "Direct entry to 777 FO!=left
sign me up to be the lowest paid 777 FO on the planet!!"

Me thinks you are one of the millennium group that believe their right to passage is a birth right!. In our era it took 18-20 years of being with AC before you got to the right seat of a heavy. And that was after slugging bags for 3-4 years and flying in an out of very dangerous situations, all for 12K a year as a Captain. That experience may have got you hired on a regional for 30K. I would have sold my sole to get hired with AC on any equipment. Most of my comrades had 6-7000 hours when they were applying to AC.

The fact that you have to pay your dues at 48K for 4 years then go to formula...all while sleeping @ FL410 in a 777 or a 787 visiting the world... I feel so sorry for you. You should stick with your C150 in your handle...they pay real well when you turn 50!

Well C150driver, I have 41 years in this racket with 12 large A/C endorsements and 15K hours in my logbook... ACP for 25 years, CP, DFO and Regulatory experience...care to compare? All pilots of my era can relate to my post above...apparently you cannot! If you are going to make statements like, "lowest paid 777 on the planet", you need an education in flying and are obviously very young.

Someone needs to Google the definition of poverty in Canada. IOW, if you're going to try to make a point, avoid the use of hyperbole and stick to the facts.

Well c150driver as I tried to point out to you this is an absolute windfall for your generation. Would you prefer slugging it out in the bush for 3-4 years then get a regional job for 5 more before getting on at a major? Not to mention you will be offered the same salary. There is a price to pay for everything in life. A doctor has to intern for low wages, an engineer works behind a senior colleague for a few years until proving his/her worth. A very wise man said once, " the only one that starts at the top is a well digger, but he is always in the hole!"

My last word on this as you seem to think that because industry has perpetuated a situation where low time pilots are getting into heavy seats that you are worth more than the rest of us who paid our dues in spades. What you do not have is the wits or experience to get yourself out of a jam when you get that job and the poop hits the fan...better look to your left...that guy that did all the required time to be there...will save your butt!

Agree with you 100% c150, It is sad to see a state of aviation in Canada and how the crew is treated. Sure, I can agree if you a cadet at 18-20 years of age and get paid 40k, but when you join with left seat experience on wide-body to make 40k, that's not right. We have flight attendants making more than that here. it's funny how some people here think that we all should be grateful just because its a job at AC, and be willing to fly for food and "enjoy" the world. Also, just because you guys had a crappy road on your way to AC, doesn't mean we all should follow and it doesn't make it right even if its a norm.

It's an amazing opportunity for guys in their 20's and early 30's who haven't been in the industry too long.
For those of us who have been "paying our dues " for 20+ years it's an insult. Financially it won't make sense for many. 4 years at low pay when you have 30 ahead of you averages out well. I'm hoping to retire in less than 15 years. Those 4 years kill the average.

It's true the 4 year flat is horrendous... stolen from our ranks by Raitt and Harper who bought the bull**** bluff from Rovinescu in 2012.

It's also likely close to true "lowest paid 777 FOs on the planet" or at least in the civilized world...

Many of us paid our dues to get here... that's the game... the cycle... doesn't mean you can think less of those who expedited through the 'lower' echelons of the business without getting too much sh!t on their shoes... I know lots of the top senior guys at AC who came here almost ab initio... and sure they oiled on the DC8 or L1011 or 727 or whatever for 6 or 8 years before they got a flying seat on the -9 for another 8 or 10 before they got on the 747 right seat or whatever... but guaranteed they were making an adjusted income higher all along than what any FO in the company makes today with affordable home prices and reasonable COL... let alone flat pay in YYZ or YVR... and now some of these guys are sitting at the top of the sh!t pile for an extra 5 years... and they joined when they were 25 or under... I have a buddy senior to me, told me he made more as a 747FO 20 years ago (capped 75 hour months too) than in any position he was in at the airline until just recently as a 767CA with a bunch of OT. Any position at the airline ain't what it used to be...

I get what you're saying 737NOTGOOD... some junior guys had it easy to get here recently and need to keep the perspective of the challenges some of us went through to get here even 10 years ago... and that's the cycle... a recession will come, a downturn will come and it will be 20 years in the business just to be a captain on a -8 again... but here ain't what it used to be either... you can't say "lucky you... grin and bare it"... we all have to respect the position from top to bottom and realize it doesn't matter where you were or, how long it took you to join AC, you are here now and we all need to be making it the best we can.

It's a good job - despite the 4 year flat - doesn't mean it can't be better... doesn't mean it hasn't fallen behind from where we were or where our peers are at... we can't forget that because some joining are only 5 years in the business or whatever.

Good Evening All:

It is interesting how the “thread drift” has crept into this conversation. Capt.Tiger424sqn asked about upgrade time to the left seat for both Team Red and Team Teal. This was answered by altiplano.

Mostly Harmless has the best comment about work and that is life balance. I was told by a very wise Captain I knew who has flown west that the happiest things are where you live to bring up your family by being senior on either junior rated position on a junior aircraft. Eventually we all rise to the top and for those who have chased metal to the bottom all their career has missed important life events being home at Christmas, birthdays, holidays when you want them as opposed to what is left etc.

I find the fixation of the 40K for the right seat of the B-777 interesting as the bid has not come out showing direct entry in the F/O position of the B-777 so this is an exercise of wasted band width.

Full disclosure I retired 9 years ago so my thoughts are from a different time and place. From memory first year salary 40 years ago was around $15,000.00 per year. Using the Bank of Canada Inflation calculator, the new hire at 40,000.00 per year 2019 dollars would be worth 11,364.00 in 1978 dollars. Yes, that is obscene and I am sure ACPA will do its best to rectify it as soon as it can.

Now put yourself in the position of an owner of a business with a return of investment some of have said 3% for airlines in a good year. You have hired someone off of the street with no internal track record other than the H/R song and dance etc. In the old days 2 years was the standard for flat salary to formula pay which I think is the way to do it as 4 years is way too long. In the 2 years the company should be able to determine whether the candidate is viable for long term employment and if not released.

There are ways around the 40,000.00 “if” the individual wants to make more money. During my tenure you could be a simulator instructor if you wanted for extra income. The other is to do something rather esoteric today and that is to save money but I digress.

Once you have passed the low salary life does improve immensely once you are on formula pay. One has to balance the “initial” higher income you could make in general aviation versus the long-term gain being in the airline industry. Think wages (B-777 300K), working conditions (B-777 9 days a month but circadian rhythm upset is horrible) and benefits (health plan) which beats any general aviation job hands down. Penny wise pound foolish as our English cousins say.

The other urban legend is working off shore for tax free income. I did a temporary secondment in the 80’s where I was making more then the ex-pat Captain. Also, as an ex-pat you will be the first to go and the locals hate you for stealing their job.

Yes, I took a pay cut from my HS-125 Captains position in 78 but would I do it again yes in a Hollywood Nano-second even if it was 4 years to formula pay as I had a fantastic career in the airline environment.

This might be a stupid question but never a pilot just a flight engineer with the RCAF. Would AC take an individual off the street with say 1000 hours total time and put him in the right seat of a 777 or would they attempt to fill the seat from within?

Roybert

Good Evening Roybert:

There is no such thing as a stupid question.

To the best of my knowledge minimum requirement is a ATPL multi-engine Class 1 instrument rating which takes about 1500 hours (if I am wrong anyone please correct).

In the "old" days entry level was S/O on either DC-8 or B-727 with the very odd lucky person as F/O on the DC-9.

As this is a seniority driven position you bid on what you think you can hold and if no one bids the position and it is open that position will go to the new hire pilot. Each course of new hires the company will determine what positions will be filled say they have a need for B-787 relief pilots all of the course could go as B-787 relief pilots.

Anyone with more current updated information please add to this posting.

A330Pilotcanada

Thank you for the response.

Roybert

Upgrade times at the Majors
 

Tiger424,

I have a good friend who recently upgraded at Big Red in 2.5 yrs on the 320. I have another friend who is going into year 9 as an FO at Team Teal.

That should give you an idea. I would say if you are at 424 as a Herc driver you'll be making better money, at least in the near term. Flat pay at AC is 4 years. Depending on your platform there is a significant jump in pay in yr 5. Check out airlinepilotcentral.com for rough / old numbers.

As others pointed out there are certainly other benefits to consider other than time to left seat or base pay. Bidding systems, OT / Draft rates to bolster income, commuting policy, reserve / no reserve... etc...

I would say making the decision between the two is a lifestyle choice. At least in Alberta you pay less tax and the housing is cheap!!!! For now....

Good Luck!

a330pilotcanada Well said my friend. I am almost retired and can look back and say it was a nice ride...not always smooth, actually sometimes down right rocky, however always landed on my feet...pardon the pun. I currently deal with pilots from every carrier and age and tell everyone to get into Big Red as fast as you can. I have watched way too many companies die at their die at their feet. Realizing that you have to sacrifice at times in this industry is paramount to you future. We have all made bad decisions in aviation, just look forward not backwards...it will eat you up!

The fact that it is potentially possible to go directly to a 777 or 787 off the street should be looked at as an absolute windfall. Once the pendulum shifts and it will, it will be 10 years of whatever flying to get in the door and take the same pay for 4 years on a narrow body with 10+ to upgrade. In other words see the positives...