New Underground Site
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New Underground Site
Check out an interesting new site that should grab your attention.
www.underground.tc.ca
Don't be intimidated, it is as anonymous as you want it to be.
Be nice and play safe kiddies.
www.underground.tc.ca
Don't be intimidated, it is as anonymous as you want it to be.
Be nice and play safe kiddies.
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Sounds like a reasonably good idea. The reason I am interested is because I'll end up in Canada eventually, and I did my pilot training there, so I'm more up with convos in the Canada region, than here in the UK where I do not fly, quite simply because the cost is diabolical.
Smooth skies,
Dan
Smooth skies,
Dan
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I like it. From what I haved read it hits the nail on the head. I'm getting in on the ground floor. It will help keep me attached to Canadian aviation, since there isn't much promising on the horizon right now. Now back to the sand and sun for me.
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OK STC :
I will stick to the topic.
You are calling me a shyster on a public forum.
I am one of the people who are posting on the underground site, and you are stating that I am a shyster and my posts are drivel.
So lets allow the readers of pprune to form their own opinion, based of course on the simple fact that I post under my own name.
I do not post anonymously and denigrate identifiable people, but if I did I would have the facts to back up my allegations.
Only cowards denigrade others behind the safety of anonymity.
Chuck Ellsworth
I will stick to the topic.
You are calling me a shyster on a public forum.
I am one of the people who are posting on the underground site, and you are stating that I am a shyster and my posts are drivel.
So lets allow the readers of pprune to form their own opinion, based of course on the simple fact that I post under my own name.
I do not post anonymously and denigrate identifiable people, but if I did I would have the facts to back up my allegations.
Only cowards denigrade others behind the safety of anonymity.
Chuck Ellsworth
Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth; 30th May 2003 at 10:29.
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I do not post anonymously. Only cowards do that!
Would you care to explain that statement to the vast majority of PPRUNE forum contributors who remain anonymous?
Mr. Ellsworth, this exhange is slowly degenerating into a discussion that falls outside of the PPRUNE guidelines and gets farther and farther from the subject matter.
I refuse to continue to debate with you in this manner. I further suggest you retract or clarify your "coward" comment.
Would you care to explain that statement to the vast majority of PPRUNE forum contributors who remain anonymous?
Mr. Ellsworth, this exhange is slowly degenerating into a discussion that falls outside of the PPRUNE guidelines and gets farther and farther from the subject matter.
I refuse to continue to debate with you in this manner. I further suggest you retract or clarify your "coward" comment.
Last edited by STC; 30th May 2003 at 10:13.
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Perhaps I am being virginally naive here, but while the site serves as good entertainment value for some and a welcome break from sticking pins in voodoo dolls for others, I really wonder whether there are any Civil Aviation Authorities, or for that matter Government Bureaucracies anywhere that are models.
I hear folks in Europe compaining about the JAR's and their regulatory agencies. In the USA, the FAA and TSA is a modern day Frankenstein and civil aviation directorates in the "Banana Republics" of the world are hindered by economical, political, and technical limitations. Many of them practice "Schadenfreude"-- a German word which roughly translates to "We're not happy, till you're not happy."
Or perhaps bureaucracy's common motto is "Nobody gets out of here alive"?
I hear folks in Europe compaining about the JAR's and their regulatory agencies. In the USA, the FAA and TSA is a modern day Frankenstein and civil aviation directorates in the "Banana Republics" of the world are hindered by economical, political, and technical limitations. Many of them practice "Schadenfreude"-- a German word which roughly translates to "We're not happy, till you're not happy."
Or perhaps bureaucracy's common motto is "Nobody gets out of here alive"?
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Shysters?
I am also one of those "shysters" you refer to in your less than intelligent post. I am one of the concerned operators who feel it is time to resolve some of the problems between operators and the Regulator.
If you feel it is "drivel" no problem, you don't have to get involved.
Obviously this will be no loss to the forum. People like Chuck and others are trying to bring attention to a number of incidents that cause considerable grief to operators, large and small in this country.
Is Transport all bad? I don't think so. There are some good people who like us think there is a better way to conduct business.They just can't speak their minds in public. Maybe they will through the Underground and this may help the operators and T.C. in their relationships in the future.
If by trying to improve the aviation industry even just a little, I am considered a "shyster", then I am a proud one.
If you feel it is "drivel" no problem, you don't have to get involved.
Obviously this will be no loss to the forum. People like Chuck and others are trying to bring attention to a number of incidents that cause considerable grief to operators, large and small in this country.
Is Transport all bad? I don't think so. There are some good people who like us think there is a better way to conduct business.They just can't speak their minds in public. Maybe they will through the Underground and this may help the operators and T.C. in their relationships in the future.
If by trying to improve the aviation industry even just a little, I am considered a "shyster", then I am a proud one.
Last edited by shamus; 30th May 2003 at 23:25.
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Thanks for jumping in here Shamus.
Judging from the style of STC's posts I believe he is the same troll windup artist that posts from Winnipeg.
The Underground site was a masterful stroke and a great idea that I believe you will see imitated in other Countries with disfunctional civil servants that seem to inbreed within our regulatory bodys.
I have the benefit of working with many different Government regulators around the world in my flying business and I find it shameful that Transport Canada is rushing to the bottom of the pile in the public service arena. Aided and abetted by their top management.
Chuck Ellsworth:
Judging from the style of STC's posts I believe he is the same troll windup artist that posts from Winnipeg.
The Underground site was a masterful stroke and a great idea that I believe you will see imitated in other Countries with disfunctional civil servants that seem to inbreed within our regulatory bodys.
I have the benefit of working with many different Government regulators around the world in my flying business and I find it shameful that Transport Canada is rushing to the bottom of the pile in the public service arena. Aided and abetted by their top management.
Chuck Ellsworth:
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I wonder if TC has a similar site that features operators that are less than "perfect"?
Oh yah they do. It's called the TSB incident and accident database.
If you want to uncover incompetence in aviation, don't concentrate on TC exclusively. TC recruits many of it's people from the industry and is therefore a reflection of the industry. I've seen plenty of complaints about TC come from various people. The vast majority of the complaints come from being caught operating outside the rules, or not being aware of them in the first place.
Of course there are the philosophical complaints that I always hear about things like security charges and Nav Canada, but there are avenues to address these sorts of things too.
Shamus, when I said "shyster" it was not meant to imply that participants in the "underground" forum don't have legitimate complaints. It's the silly "underground" mentality that is implied. Going underground means attempting to go outside the visibility of the law. It implies covert operation.
If a person can't work within the law to resolve issues with TC and further actively participates in an anonymous, one sided "underground" attempt to circumvent the civil airworthiness authority, then yes. Such a person is a shyster, and I don't want to be a passenger on their air service.
Oh yah they do. It's called the TSB incident and accident database.
If you want to uncover incompetence in aviation, don't concentrate on TC exclusively. TC recruits many of it's people from the industry and is therefore a reflection of the industry. I've seen plenty of complaints about TC come from various people. The vast majority of the complaints come from being caught operating outside the rules, or not being aware of them in the first place.
Of course there are the philosophical complaints that I always hear about things like security charges and Nav Canada, but there are avenues to address these sorts of things too.
Shamus, when I said "shyster" it was not meant to imply that participants in the "underground" forum don't have legitimate complaints. It's the silly "underground" mentality that is implied. Going underground means attempting to go outside the visibility of the law. It implies covert operation.
If a person can't work within the law to resolve issues with TC and further actively participates in an anonymous, one sided "underground" attempt to circumvent the civil airworthiness authority, then yes. Such a person is a shyster, and I don't want to be a passenger on their air service.
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I do not disagree that there are some operators who may skirt the regulations for their own benefit. This group of operators, who started the forum, and know each other well have some legitimate concerns with the Regulator. We are not trying to circumvent the Civil Aviation authority at all, but can't seem to get our voice heard any other way.
The "underground" was set up as a means to discuss the issues anonymously without intimidation. We would hope T.C. will read the forums and the good guys, of which there are many will make changes that benefit us all.
This is being done on a positive note by most, with the hopes of an improvement between the Industry and the Regulator.
The "underground" was set up as a means to discuss the issues anonymously without intimidation. We would hope T.C. will read the forums and the good guys, of which there are many will make changes that benefit us all.
This is being done on a positive note by most, with the hopes of an improvement between the Industry and the Regulator.
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STC :
The Underground site will not be in any trouble with my posts for the simple reason that I use my true name. If Transport Canada needs to find me that would be no problem, the Regional Director General of Transport Canada has even spent a day at my house discussing the very subject I was referring to, so he wouldn't even have to look up the address.
Now if I were a coward that hides behind some made up name that would be a different matter.
For all the rest of you who read STC's comments, he failed to mention that before Transport Canada can "shut me down" they would have to have a reason to do so. I operate a legal business and there has never, ever been any suggestion that I operate outside the law.
Chuck Ellsworth
The Underground site will not be in any trouble with my posts for the simple reason that I use my true name. If Transport Canada needs to find me that would be no problem, the Regional Director General of Transport Canada has even spent a day at my house discussing the very subject I was referring to, so he wouldn't even have to look up the address.
Now if I were a coward that hides behind some made up name that would be a different matter.
For all the rest of you who read STC's comments, he failed to mention that before Transport Canada can "shut me down" they would have to have a reason to do so. I operate a legal business and there has never, ever been any suggestion that I operate outside the law.
Chuck Ellsworth
Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth; 1st Jun 2003 at 12:34.
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STC
I don't think you have much to say here. You have never had a problem with TC and therefore have no idea how f*cked up some members of the TC mafia can be. I take pride in my career, and do things to improve my profesion.
I don't think you have much to say here. You have never had a problem with TC and therefore have no idea how f*cked up some members of the TC mafia can be. I take pride in my career, and do things to improve my profesion.
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I had a quick read through this "underground" website and noted right away that most of the complaints concern M&M treatment of its clients. Wouldn't the Regions have an internal complaint-handling protocol [internal investigation] where you can file your complaint and have it looked at by other than M&M or whoever you're having trouble with?
