N registration aircraft permanently in Canada?
Thread Starter
N registration aircraft permanently in Canada?
Any experts out there?
My gliding club is looking for a new towplane and we have concluded that a Pawnee is the logical choice, but we have looked at some other aircraft.
I am having a (so far) polite disagreement with another club member about whether you can operate US registered aircraft permanently in Canada. He is intrigued by a Rallye for sale in New England. There are no Rallyes registered in Canada, so he has suggested we keep it on the FAA registry. Apart from the obvious difficulties associated with a maintaining and operating a foreign-registered orphan aircraft in Canada, I have told him that you cannot permanently base a foreign-registered private aircraft in Canada.
My reading of the CARs seems to confirm that you cannot do this. As a practical matter, if this was allowed, the country would be littered with N numbers, from sea to shining sea!
Here is the relevant CAR:
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/....html#s-604.03
My friend says that he has been told by someone in TC that you can do this. Can someone give me some feedback?
My gliding club is looking for a new towplane and we have concluded that a Pawnee is the logical choice, but we have looked at some other aircraft.
I am having a (so far) polite disagreement with another club member about whether you can operate US registered aircraft permanently in Canada. He is intrigued by a Rallye for sale in New England. There are no Rallyes registered in Canada, so he has suggested we keep it on the FAA registry. Apart from the obvious difficulties associated with a maintaining and operating a foreign-registered orphan aircraft in Canada, I have told him that you cannot permanently base a foreign-registered private aircraft in Canada.
My reading of the CARs seems to confirm that you cannot do this. As a practical matter, if this was allowed, the country would be littered with N numbers, from sea to shining sea!
Here is the relevant CAR:
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/....html#s-604.03
My friend says that he has been told by someone in TC that you can do this. Can someone give me some feedback?
Moderator
I don't recall where the rule is found, it may be in the customs regulations, but I recall that there is a maximum length of time a US registered plane may remain in Canada before either having to be imported, or flown out. I faintly recall a friend a long time ago, owning an N plane, and deliberately entering and leaving Canada with it for periods of time to conform with the regulation. NAFTA may affect this, as I recall N jump planes operating in Canada, so there may have been changes in the rule I recall. Until certain, it is wise to be suspect of a plan to operate N in Canada indefinitely.
A US operator has more leeway operating a US aircraft in Canada than a Canadian operator - Cut Bank Glider Club anybody?
There's CARs, then there's Customs regulations. I have read of aircraft being seized by Customs.
Finally, where you going to find an AME familiar with Rallyes ?
There's CARs, then there's Customs regulations. I have read of aircraft being seized by Customs.
Finally, where you going to find an AME familiar with Rallyes ?
N registry
The use of N registrations IS somewhat limited in Canada. However, at CYBW, I know of at least 6 N registered aircraft, most light business jets, but also a kitplane and a Reno racer. The business jets are operated by individuals who found the paperwork requirements of CAR 604 way too demanding. One told me it cost around $70,000 a year, and a 500+ page manual for a self-flown Citation. The kitplane is owned by a guy who doesn't like Transport Canada to an absurd degree. Quite often the airlines will lease in an aircraft and leave it on the N reg (or whatever country). WestJet did that with Delta 737-800s before buying their own.
A N reg. aircraft can be flown in Canada by any pilot whose licence would permit them to fly that aircraft type if it was Canadian registered. However, usually not in any other countries airspace unless they hold an American licence. So, while staying in Canada, a Canadian PPL or RPP would suffice to fly a Rallye.
It is my understanding that the aircraft is to return to the US during the year, but I am not sure of the amount of time.
While running maintenance can be done by an AME, the annual inspection would also have to be done by an American IA, rare in Canada, or a FAR 145 approved shop (expensive). However, there is a shop at Cutbank, about an 1.5 hour flight south of Black Diamond.
I haven't been on slack, I assume the aircraft is a Remorquer or 235 hp Rallye. The lower powered Rallyes are certified in Canada, & leaving it on the N reg would simplify importing it. Customs would be very interested in any such manoeuvre, but TC is fairly hands-off.
A N reg. aircraft can be flown in Canada by any pilot whose licence would permit them to fly that aircraft type if it was Canadian registered. However, usually not in any other countries airspace unless they hold an American licence. So, while staying in Canada, a Canadian PPL or RPP would suffice to fly a Rallye.
It is my understanding that the aircraft is to return to the US during the year, but I am not sure of the amount of time.
While running maintenance can be done by an AME, the annual inspection would also have to be done by an American IA, rare in Canada, or a FAR 145 approved shop (expensive). However, there is a shop at Cutbank, about an 1.5 hour flight south of Black Diamond.
I haven't been on slack, I assume the aircraft is a Remorquer or 235 hp Rallye. The lower powered Rallyes are certified in Canada, & leaving it on the N reg would simplify importing it. Customs would be very interested in any such manoeuvre, but TC is fairly hands-off.
Thread Starter
Pilot DAR,
Thanks for your input. The 90 day limit is referred to in CAR 202.42. In my first post, I made a mistake in my URL.
The "unless" section is the usual difficult read (unless you are a lawyer), but I am pretty sure it confirms my suspicion that there is no way a private N-registered aircraft can be based in Canada.
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/....html#s-202.42
I have been aware of this issue since the 80s, when I worked for an oil company in Calgary whose president had a Jetstar. Since he couldn't (or wouldn't) register it in Canada, it was based in Great Falls and flown the 240 miles to Calgary, each time he wanted to use it!
RBF,
That was one of my observations too. Also, would have to be an American AME. That would be like looking for a Unicorn!
Thanks for your input. The 90 day limit is referred to in CAR 202.42. In my first post, I made a mistake in my URL.
202.42 (1) Subject to section 203.03, no person shall operate in Canada an aircraft that is registered in a foreign state that has been present in Canada for a total of 90 days or more in the immediately preceding twelve-month period unless ...
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/....html#s-202.42
I have been aware of this issue since the 80s, when I worked for an oil company in Calgary whose president had a Jetstar. Since he couldn't (or wouldn't) register it in Canada, it was based in Great Falls and flown the 240 miles to Calgary, each time he wanted to use it!
Finally, where you going to find an AME familiar with Rallyes ?
That was one of my observations too. Also, would have to be an American AME. That would be like looking for a Unicorn!
Thread Starter
JamesL and selfin,
Thanks for your informative posts, which I hadn't seen when I was preparing my last post.
Thanks for your informative posts, which I hadn't seen when I was preparing my last post.
about 20 years ago we had a similar thing, company was only allowed 1 in 3or 4 aircraft on N register, and we had to transfer to cdn registry after a year. no w that was commercial. lots of guys run jets under us part 91 because TC is stupid with their 604 regs. afa customs pay the gst and carry on
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Pilot DAR,
Thanks for your input. The 90 day limit is referred to in CAR 202.42. In my first post, I made a mistake in my URL.
The "unless" section is the usual difficult read (unless you are a lawyer), but I am pretty sure it confirms my suspicion that there is no way a private N-registered aircraft can be based in Canada.
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/....html#s-202.42
Thanks for your input. The 90 day limit is referred to in CAR 202.42. In my first post, I made a mistake in my URL.
The "unless" section is the usual difficult read (unless you are a lawyer), but I am pretty sure it confirms my suspicion that there is no way a private N-registered aircraft can be based in Canada.
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/....html#s-202.42
You can register it privately, but privately owned by a corporation in the US for example. I have no idea how a Canadian cojld own a US corporation, but I'm confident it is somehow possible.
202.42 (1) allows this for small planes that would not need an OC in Canada. So you can't do that with your private jet, but with a Rallye you would be fine.
No idea what customs wants. I wouldn't even have thought about that. Is it even applicable? The good news is that pretty much any customs issue can quickly be solved with money. With TC issues you need more money and even more time.
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I’ve owned an N registered Piper Cherokee and kept it in Canada where my partner did all her Canadian licences on. The airplane can not be owned by a Canadian (US RULE) but a Canadian can own a US company (LLC) that owns the airplane. We set our company up in Montana as there is no sales tax so the airplane cost $5.00 to register with the FAA. $1200USD to set up the company, $140USD/year to maintain. Annuals done in either the US but now I have a US ÂME in Canada. As a Canadian wanting to fly the airplane in Canada you must pay the tax to CRA which we did at the border. CBSA don’t care what you do with the airplane they just want the tax. I know of the 90 day rule, but no one enforces it and it was never a problem. Now we’re selling our plane in the US and have a much bigger market to sell back into.
i know of another flight school in Canada doing the same thing and teaching multi-IFR on an “N” register. Transport Canada has no problem with it.
i know of another flight school in Canada doing the same thing and teaching multi-IFR on an “N” register. Transport Canada has no problem with it.
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I’ve owned an N registered Piper Cherokee and kept it in Canada where my partner did all her Canadian licences on. The airplane can not be owned by a Canadian (US RULE) but a Canadian can own a US company (LLC) that owns the airplane. We set our company up in Montana as there is no sales tax so the airplane cost $5.00 to register with the FAA. $1200USD to set up the company, $140USD/year to maintain. Annuals done in either the US but now I have a US ÂME in Canada. As a Canadian wanting to fly the airplane in Canada you must pay the tax to CRA which we did at the border. CBSA don’t care what you do with the airplane they just want the tax. I know of the 90 day rule, but no one enforces it and it was never a problem. Now we’re selling our plane in the US and have a much bigger market to sell back into.
i know of another flight school in Canada doing the same thing and teaching multi-IFR on an “N” register. Transport Canada has no problem with it.
i know of another flight school in Canada doing the same thing and teaching multi-IFR on an “N” register. Transport Canada has no problem with it.
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When I brought a 182RG across (with the intention of importing it) for a friend eight years ago, all that Canadian Customs seemed to care about was that the HST tax was paid, which it had been. The airplane itself was duty free, so tax only, and I was free to continue into Canada. I can't assert that it's still that way, but that's what I would expect. A customs broker or Canadian airplane sales agent should be able to confirm this for you. From distant memory, I think there are rules as to how long an American airplane can remain in Canada, though I have no idea where to research that - it's probably a customs thing. Perhaps paying the HST gets you around it...
A non citizen corporation can be the registered owner but there are operating limitations and reporting requirements that would make this option unattractive for an aircraft used in Canada. 14 CFR 147.9.
No I'm not lawyer but I was recently directly impacted by these registration requirements.
My understanding is that a US LLC can be run by a US trustee, typically a lawyer in Delaware. The Brits resort to this to bypass the CAA which is even more a headache than TC.
