Buffalo Airways licence suspended
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I never said that the reports had to be PC, I said you implying they could have done a better job when the situation was clearly unsalvageable was disrespectful.
Anyway, that's it for me, done with this thread as I clearly have no idea of what I'm talking about.
Anyway, that's it for me, done with this thread as I clearly have no idea of what I'm talking about.
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Show me Buffalo's 'smokin holes' & body count...
... Air France has has at least 3 smoking' holes & hundreds of bodies.
Aviation needs characters... Buffalo WILL be missed.
Aviation needs characters... Buffalo WILL be missed.
I think this thread has lost its way, particularly with the inappropriate diversion off thread to AF and Concorde.
Is the fundamental question not really about maintenance?
Piston engined aircraft never were particularly reliable at their best, particularly when compared with modern turbines. I know I'm old, but 40 years ago when I operated round engined aircraft it was difficult enough to find PMA quality parts and reliable engine, propeller and component overhauls? Today, it must be nigh on impossible.
Surely it must be about calling time on the remnants of WWII era aircraft still operating in revenue passenger transport roles today? Today's travelling public deserves better.
Is the fundamental question not really about maintenance?
Piston engined aircraft never were particularly reliable at their best, particularly when compared with modern turbines. I know I'm old, but 40 years ago when I operated round engined aircraft it was difficult enough to find PMA quality parts and reliable engine, propeller and component overhauls? Today, it must be nigh on impossible.
Surely it must be about calling time on the remnants of WWII era aircraft still operating in revenue passenger transport roles today? Today's travelling public deserves better.
Last edited by twochai; 7th Dec 2015 at 21:43.
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Well if we get rid of all the old piston engine airplanes in commercial aviation twochai there will be a real lack of airplanes in the float plane business considering the number of Beavers still being used.
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twochai, you are absolutley correct in your statement re piston engines, however with the development of some new engines along with a few smart folks getting back into new build engines along with Diesel things are starting to look up.The real problem at the moment with at least one make of engine is the passing on of those with lots of piston know how, for instance one shop which had a fine record was purchased by "investors", {run the other way when this hapens to any company}, the result ? on one of our aircraft had two total engine failures, one at 20 hours since major, and another at 300 hours, both entailed major break up of the engines, one due to FOD left inside , and incorect assembly in the second engine, The 100LL question is close to a solution but not on the open market as yet. In the case of some of the older turbines the same situation is developing as in the piston market.
Clunck:
I was really talking about 60 to 70 year old round engines and the airframes in which they're still operating.
Your point about the disappearing availability of skilled technicians and the lack of incentives for young people to enter the trades today is a very real concern for the aircraft and engine maintenance business, perhaps more significant than the age of the hardware itself.
Age of the design, as such, is not the problem (witness the roll-out yesterday of the latest model 737 Max 8, 49 years after the 737-100 rolled out of Renton) - a testament to continuously updating the technology as it evolved.
But DC-3's and C-46's in 2015??
I was really talking about 60 to 70 year old round engines and the airframes in which they're still operating.
Surely it must be about calling time on the remnants of WWII era aircraft still operating in revenue passenger transport roles today?
Age of the design, as such, is not the problem (witness the roll-out yesterday of the latest model 737 Max 8, 49 years after the 737-100 rolled out of Renton) - a testament to continuously updating the technology as it evolved.
But DC-3's and C-46's in 2015??
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Twochai, I think rhe "new" 737 airframes are a bit like one of my restorations of a very old airframe, about the only thing original was the data plate and the tailwheel! The closure of our local technical high school was a clasic example of pure acedemics simply not understanding our industrial society, now they have the balls to contact myself and others to re-start the programs as there are so few skilled workers left, I for one have no desire to get tangled into the modern education system, the situation is so bad that one local company has started its own private trade school, their students command very good incomes upon graduation, maybe thisis what the aviation industry should be doing. Tomorow and the day after I will be removing parts from a VERY old piston engine so as to get them overhauled, I fear the aircraft this engine is mounted on may finish up in a museum if we dont start training replacments for my generation.
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Its one thing to have old unreliable piston engines. Its another to overload them.
Culture + Non Compliance + Mechanical Failures = DC3 Accident - Aerossurance
Being highlighted as an example of poor regulation by other regulators after the DC-3 accident report was never going to encourage TC to be relaxed after the C-46 accident.
Culture + Non Compliance + Mechanical Failures = DC3 Accident - Aerossurance
Being highlighted as an example of poor regulation by other regulators after the DC-3 accident report was never going to encourage TC to be relaxed after the C-46 accident.
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My 2c comes from having worked in the neighbourhood that Buffalo plays in. Yes they fly old airplanes. But they're well maintained. For every flying aircraft that company has, they have upwards of five spares in Yellowknife, Hay River and Red Deer.
Their pilots - they make some boneheaded decisions - just like some pilots I flew with on aircraft that were the great-grandchildren of the DC-3/C46/etc. Hell, I've made some boneheaded moves. So have all of the posters here.
Now, in many cases Buffalo has the TV show to blame for some of their issues. There are some other companies of equal history who go on quietly through the night, hearing from the regulator on a regular basis but never sparking the ire that is shown to Buffalo. Put a TV camera in front of anyone with a director saying "lets do that again, but with more pizazz" and see what ends up coming out six months later.
I am of the opinion that this does have more to do with paperwork than anything. To give an example, an operator I was once in employ of was given a 30 day notice of suspension of our AOC. The reason: The TC inspector could not tell whether 08/07/2009 referred to the 8th of July or the 7th of August. Now, before we go on a tangent - the form had in the date field dd/mm/yyyy. When this was pointed out to said inspector, he turned around and stated his preference was to see something along the lines of "8 Jul 2009" because that removes ambiguity. The NOS remained in place until we changed our date format to HIS way. The rationale was that some of our pilots would have been expired on training. They were not. We demonstrated with the form they were not. But because of his personal preferences we were served notice.
That folks is the possible mentality Buffalo is playing with. Imagine spending 4 decades fighting that type of attitude. Would you play nice?
Their pilots - they make some boneheaded decisions - just like some pilots I flew with on aircraft that were the great-grandchildren of the DC-3/C46/etc. Hell, I've made some boneheaded moves. So have all of the posters here.
Now, in many cases Buffalo has the TV show to blame for some of their issues. There are some other companies of equal history who go on quietly through the night, hearing from the regulator on a regular basis but never sparking the ire that is shown to Buffalo. Put a TV camera in front of anyone with a director saying "lets do that again, but with more pizazz" and see what ends up coming out six months later.
I am of the opinion that this does have more to do with paperwork than anything. To give an example, an operator I was once in employ of was given a 30 day notice of suspension of our AOC. The reason: The TC inspector could not tell whether 08/07/2009 referred to the 8th of July or the 7th of August. Now, before we go on a tangent - the form had in the date field dd/mm/yyyy. When this was pointed out to said inspector, he turned around and stated his preference was to see something along the lines of "8 Jul 2009" because that removes ambiguity. The NOS remained in place until we changed our date format to HIS way. The rationale was that some of our pilots would have been expired on training. They were not. We demonstrated with the form they were not. But because of his personal preferences we were served notice.
That folks is the possible mentality Buffalo is playing with. Imagine spending 4 decades fighting that type of attitude. Would you play nice?
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I'm not so sure a consultant talking to the media about private conversations during this sort of work just helped Buffalo in any way shape or form. "No comment" or "We are working diligently with Transport Canada" work WAY better than "so my buddy in TC called me..."
This really is too bad - what an end to a 50 year aviation career...I have no doubt that Joe has more experience (flying, management, etc.) than the entire TC team combined.
This really is too bad - what an end to a 50 year aviation career...I have no doubt that Joe has more experience (flying, management, etc.) than the entire TC team combined.
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Buffalo Airways owner agrees to step away as airline remains grounded
Joe McBryan's agreement was 'an extreme step' in response to pressure from Transport Canada
Joe McBryan, owner and president of Buffalo Airways and star of Ice Pilots NWT, has signed a letter agreeing to step away from the day-to-day operations of the airline, according to a consultant working to help the beleaguered company have its suspended air operator certificate reinstated.
On November 30, Transport Canada grounded the operations of the popular northern airline, citing a "poor safety record." The airline had continued to use charters to serve clients, but announced Thursday it's postponing passenger flights on its principal passenger route, between Yellowknife and Hay River, N.W.T.
To review and revamp its safety standards, the company hired DTI Training, a consulting firm that has worked with NASA and helped write Transport Canada's quality control procedures over a decade ago.
Sol Taboada, the firm's owner, told CBC that having McBryan, known fondly across the North as "Buffalo Joe," step away was "an extreme step" in response to pressure from Transport Canada.
But it may not be enough.
McBryan's letter was included in Buffalo's most recent submission to Transport Canada, but Taboada said the company received word Wednesday that it's still not satisfied.
'Joe never says no'
McBryan is not part of Buffalo's management team, but is heavily involved in day-to-day operations with the airline.
"You have a man who owns the company, a man with a powerful personality," Tabaoda said. "He's got 50 years experience. Even though he's technically not one of the executives in the company, if he walks through a hangar and tells somebody 'I think you should do this,' they're pretty much going to do it."
McBryan is also well-known as a man who gets things done, a reputation that Taboada said may be hurting him.
"One of the problems Buffalo Airways has is when a Northern community calls with an emergency and needs an extra piece of something on a plane for whatever reason, Joe never says no," he said. "They load it on, and so they'd be overweight.
According to Taboada, pressure for McBryan to step down were both subtle and not-so-subtle.
It came to a head at a Dec. 11 meeting with Transport Canada.
Buffalo presented a set of corrective actions, including a third-party "gatekeeper" who would oversee the company's flight operations, that Taboada believed would address the issues that led to Buffalo's suspension.
"The question was asked to me: 'If we lift the suspension today, what will the operation look like tomorrow?'" he said. "More specifically, what will the DC-3 operation look like?"
Taboada answered that the operations of the DC-3, a plane in Buffalo's fleet often piloted by McBryan, would be the same as the rest of Buffalo's aircraft. After the meeting, he received a call from an acquaintance working for Transport Canada.
"He goes: 'Is Joe going to be flying the DC-3?' I said: 'He's a pilot! Sure! Why not?' He goes: 'How are you going to control Joe on day-to-day operations?'," Taboada said.
"And I said: 'How am I going to control him? I can get a rope, I can tie him up and take a picture? Is that what you want?'"
'113 employees twisting in the wind'
Three weeks into the suspension, Taboada says he's worried that costs will spiral out of control, leaving the company on poor footing to resume operations.
McBryan has refused to lay off any of his employees, meaning that the airline is paying salaries and other costs, but is not taking in revenue.
Taboada says he feels that Transport Canada is not treating Buffalo fairly.
"You've got 113 employees twisting in the wind, not knowing if they're going to have a job. It's just not right," he said.
"Either let them operate to see if we've corrected these problems, or chop the head off right now. Just do it, and get it over with."
In an e-mail, Transport Canada spokesperson Amber Wonko said that "Transport Canada continues to work with Buffalo Airways in view to addressing the safety concerns identified."
Kristine Cook, Buffalo's communications manager, said the airline had no comment at this time. McBryan has declined to comment to media since the suspension began.
Buffalo Airways owner agrees to step away as airline remains grounded - North - CBC News
Joe McBryan's agreement was 'an extreme step' in response to pressure from Transport Canada
Joe McBryan, owner and president of Buffalo Airways and star of Ice Pilots NWT, has signed a letter agreeing to step away from the day-to-day operations of the airline, according to a consultant working to help the beleaguered company have its suspended air operator certificate reinstated.
On November 30, Transport Canada grounded the operations of the popular northern airline, citing a "poor safety record." The airline had continued to use charters to serve clients, but announced Thursday it's postponing passenger flights on its principal passenger route, between Yellowknife and Hay River, N.W.T.
To review and revamp its safety standards, the company hired DTI Training, a consulting firm that has worked with NASA and helped write Transport Canada's quality control procedures over a decade ago.
Sol Taboada, the firm's owner, told CBC that having McBryan, known fondly across the North as "Buffalo Joe," step away was "an extreme step" in response to pressure from Transport Canada.
But it may not be enough.
McBryan's letter was included in Buffalo's most recent submission to Transport Canada, but Taboada said the company received word Wednesday that it's still not satisfied.
'Joe never says no'
McBryan is not part of Buffalo's management team, but is heavily involved in day-to-day operations with the airline.
"You have a man who owns the company, a man with a powerful personality," Tabaoda said. "He's got 50 years experience. Even though he's technically not one of the executives in the company, if he walks through a hangar and tells somebody 'I think you should do this,' they're pretty much going to do it."
McBryan is also well-known as a man who gets things done, a reputation that Taboada said may be hurting him.
"One of the problems Buffalo Airways has is when a Northern community calls with an emergency and needs an extra piece of something on a plane for whatever reason, Joe never says no," he said. "They load it on, and so they'd be overweight.
According to Taboada, pressure for McBryan to step down were both subtle and not-so-subtle.
It came to a head at a Dec. 11 meeting with Transport Canada.
Buffalo presented a set of corrective actions, including a third-party "gatekeeper" who would oversee the company's flight operations, that Taboada believed would address the issues that led to Buffalo's suspension.
"The question was asked to me: 'If we lift the suspension today, what will the operation look like tomorrow?'" he said. "More specifically, what will the DC-3 operation look like?"
Taboada answered that the operations of the DC-3, a plane in Buffalo's fleet often piloted by McBryan, would be the same as the rest of Buffalo's aircraft. After the meeting, he received a call from an acquaintance working for Transport Canada.
"He goes: 'Is Joe going to be flying the DC-3?' I said: 'He's a pilot! Sure! Why not?' He goes: 'How are you going to control Joe on day-to-day operations?'," Taboada said.
"And I said: 'How am I going to control him? I can get a rope, I can tie him up and take a picture? Is that what you want?'"
'113 employees twisting in the wind'
Three weeks into the suspension, Taboada says he's worried that costs will spiral out of control, leaving the company on poor footing to resume operations.
McBryan has refused to lay off any of his employees, meaning that the airline is paying salaries and other costs, but is not taking in revenue.
Taboada says he feels that Transport Canada is not treating Buffalo fairly.
"You've got 113 employees twisting in the wind, not knowing if they're going to have a job. It's just not right," he said.
"Either let them operate to see if we've corrected these problems, or chop the head off right now. Just do it, and get it over with."
In an e-mail, Transport Canada spokesperson Amber Wonko said that "Transport Canada continues to work with Buffalo Airways in view to addressing the safety concerns identified."
Kristine Cook, Buffalo's communications manager, said the airline had no comment at this time. McBryan has declined to comment to media since the suspension began.
Buffalo Airways owner agrees to step away as airline remains grounded - North - CBC News
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How long can Buffalo last?
It is coming up on a month now since Joe got shut down.
I understand he is still paying all his employees even though there is no flying.
It will be interesting to see what happens to all the flying he did moving cargo.
And of course there is the water bombing side of his business.
Very interesting times in the far north.
I understand he is still paying all his employees even though there is no flying.
It will be interesting to see what happens to all the flying he did moving cargo.
And of course there is the water bombing side of his business.
Very interesting times in the far north.
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Originally Posted by clunkdriver
Its OK Chuck, this "Old pilot mentality" is busy converting some "Young pilot mentality" to our corporate aircraft these days, At least one {Should we keep him, very mutch in doubt at this time} has real problems with basic flying skills, {Could be his training, knowing where he trained} but doesnt seem able to program a simple hold into our top of the line equipment whilst hand flying
Out of curiosity, why are you making him so much as touch the box "whilst hand flying"? Or is yours a single-pilot operation?
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Amadis, our insurance stipulates no single pilot with pax {My pax are rather "high value" to quote the underwriters} but we somtimes need to position the aircraft single pilot, when we do I have raised the limits by 100 feet, we have very good nav systems but the auto pilot is pretty basic, so single pilot he/she will have to be up to it, a standard they simply dont obtain by being taught IFR by instructors who have NEVER flown in actual IFR, ice/short runways and poor braking, lets face it, the system is broken!
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When I showed up in YHY in 1980 with a brand shiny new ATP, Multi-Engine IFR rating.......It took me about three flights across the tundra and back to realize I knew very little about flying......Luckily I learned a lot while I was up 'there'....
Cheers
jc
Cheers
jc
