The backlash against foreign pilots explained to foreign pilots
Very short memories
We do not NEED foreign pilots in Canada. The only reason we do it is for the reasons of reciprocity, to avoid lay offs and provide year round employment to those Canadian pilots engaged in reciprocity.
The real problem in the lack of accountability at management level, don't point the finger at the people doing as they are told. The people making the business case for European pilots would be Canadians in management, direct your energy, and the energy of your politicians at the real issue (management and looking after their bonus), not the distraction (people like you trying to make a living).
Make a real business case to hire local, get management to justify their business case.
You will be surprised how shallow the management business case is, and how fake the savings are.
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Probably striking closer to home......
'Ron Smith, director of transportation at Unifor, which represents Sunwing's pilots, says the union is committed to getting more Canadians hired. "We are getting that reversed, but it takes time. It's not something that happens overnight," he said.
He added the pilots like Hudicourt who complain about Sunwing's use of foreign pilots work for rival airlines.
''Their goal has been to kill Sunwing. They're trying to make life difficult for Sunwing," Smith said.'
He added the pilots like Hudicourt who complain about Sunwing's use of foreign pilots work for rival airlines.
''Their goal has been to kill Sunwing. They're trying to make life difficult for Sunwing," Smith said.'
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No point in posting that Jetgate. This is all about SunWings and only marginally about TFWs.
In noting the history of TFWs, Mr Hudicourt conveniently left out his company's role in bringing TFWs to Canada before Sunwings. Sunwings just played the game better and so now he is championing the rights of Canadian pilots....which is why Sunwings name appears so frequently.
Their business model is progressing well, and they are hiring more Canadian pilots every year.. Something Hudicourt and gang dont really consider.
Sunwings seems to have a pretty good business model that employs Canadian pilots and many many others. That is a good thing. Could they employ more? Probably, but give them a few years to accomplish it.
The whole TFW issue with regard to airlines is , in my opinion, nothing but a smokescreen by a competitor.
Where was Mr Hudicourt and company when Sunwings objected to Canjet and......Air Transit using TFWs?
But when Sunwings bellied up to the table and played the game, the crying, wailing, and complaining of the unfairness of it all started.
The rationale is Sunwings should hire all Canadian pilots. If they go broke as a result and lay off thousands....well good old AirTransit will step in and help out.....you can count on it.
Don't get me wrong. I think there is a real issue with TFWs in Canada, and in the aviation sector, particularily the RW side, as well.
But this whole centering out Sunwings, and the derogatory remarks and slurs about them are not about TFW as much as they are about trying to use the sheeple to fight a competitor.
In noting the history of TFWs, Mr Hudicourt conveniently left out his company's role in bringing TFWs to Canada before Sunwings. Sunwings just played the game better and so now he is championing the rights of Canadian pilots....which is why Sunwings name appears so frequently.
Their business model is progressing well, and they are hiring more Canadian pilots every year.. Something Hudicourt and gang dont really consider.
Sunwings seems to have a pretty good business model that employs Canadian pilots and many many others. That is a good thing. Could they employ more? Probably, but give them a few years to accomplish it.
The whole TFW issue with regard to airlines is , in my opinion, nothing but a smokescreen by a competitor.
Where was Mr Hudicourt and company when Sunwings objected to Canjet and......Air Transit using TFWs?
But when Sunwings bellied up to the table and played the game, the crying, wailing, and complaining of the unfairness of it all started.
The rationale is Sunwings should hire all Canadian pilots. If they go broke as a result and lay off thousands....well good old AirTransit will step in and help out.....you can count on it.
Don't get me wrong. I think there is a real issue with TFWs in Canada, and in the aviation sector, particularily the RW side, as well.
But this whole centering out Sunwings, and the derogatory remarks and slurs about them are not about TFW as much as they are about trying to use the sheeple to fight a competitor.
Last edited by treykule; 10th May 2015 at 09:30.
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Canjet airlines just laid off 68 Boeing 737NG type rated pilots.
First Air recently laid off several jet pilots.
Canadian North recently laid off several jet pilots.
Kelowna Flightcraft recently laid off several jet pilots.
The pilots of all four of these airlines are unionized under ALPA.
Why can't these qualified Canadian pilots get first shot at Canadian jobs at Canadian airlines in Canada ?
Why exactly does Sunwing need several more years to adapt ? Adapt to what ?
This is like Norwegian hiring pilots in Thailand. Except Norwegian at least requires an EASA licence. Imagine if Irish registered, UK based Norwegian, hired non European pilots with non EU licenses. That is what Sunwing does in Canada.
Why ?
First Air recently laid off several jet pilots.
Canadian North recently laid off several jet pilots.
Kelowna Flightcraft recently laid off several jet pilots.
The pilots of all four of these airlines are unionized under ALPA.
Why can't these qualified Canadian pilots get first shot at Canadian jobs at Canadian airlines in Canada ?
Why exactly does Sunwing need several more years to adapt ? Adapt to what ?
This is like Norwegian hiring pilots in Thailand. Except Norwegian at least requires an EASA licence. Imagine if Irish registered, UK based Norwegian, hired non European pilots with non EU licenses. That is what Sunwing does in Canada.
Why ?
Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt; 10th May 2015 at 21:32.
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There is NO political will in Canada to bring this issue to a sensible or satisfactory conclusion.
The Canadian government is a total sellout in full denial.
Employable Canadian pilots on the dole while foreign pilots are handed Canadian pilot jobs....
If any of that logic needs to be explained or justified, never mind defended, by anyone. Then, Canada and Canadian pilots simply don't realize how far into the sewer things have fallen.
Willie
The Canadian government is a total sellout in full denial.
Employable Canadian pilots on the dole while foreign pilots are handed Canadian pilot jobs....
If any of that logic needs to be explained or justified, never mind defended, by anyone. Then, Canada and Canadian pilots simply don't realize how far into the sewer things have fallen.
Willie
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Beautiful eh Willie? Add to that, the EI people will actually offer to retrain those "Unemployable" out of work pilots in a totally different field rather than step in and find them meaningful work in their own field. There are actually Canadians who have their head so far in the sand that they see the current government and it's sell Canada out policies as great for the country...
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Lefty,
I don't know how much further into the sewer the so-called pilot profession in Canada can slide. It's for sure no one in government understands how the future of Canadian aviation is to survive if new comers and mid-career pilots can't access Canadian flying jobs.
Unbelievable!!
Willie
I don't know how much further into the sewer the so-called pilot profession in Canada can slide. It's for sure no one in government understands how the future of Canadian aviation is to survive if new comers and mid-career pilots can't access Canadian flying jobs.
Unbelievable!!
Willie
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Information provided by the above poster is not acurate.
The above poster does not represent pilots in Canada, his posts are just personal opinions.
+++++
The TFW program would have, has, and will continue to change without having any input from some of those who claim to be championing the cause..
The above poster does not represent pilots in Canada, his posts are just personal opinions.
+++++
The TFW program would have, has, and will continue to change without having any input from some of those who claim to be championing the cause..
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Mr Kul
Please tell us how those changes will be made? The regulator in Canada refuses to follow their own Laws...the Government will only make small changes but continues to yell from their stump that it's under control...yet SW still has carte blanche to bring in TFW'S. Tell us how that's a change...I will believe you when NO foreign pilots take Canadian Pilot's jobs. In the meantime, if no one was to say anything, is it your belief that the process would go forward on it's own? That defies belief if you ask anyone with a reasonable amount of business sense. (The reciprocity or zero sum issue is a dead one...agreed?)
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Are you asking a legitimate question?
Here is what I get from your post
The regulator in Canada refuses to follow their own Laws...the Government will only make small changes but continues to yell from their stump that it's under control...yet SW still has carte blanche to bring in TFW'S. Tell us how that's a change...I will believe you when NO foreign pilots take Canadian Pilot's jobs. In the meantime, if no one was to say anything, is it your belief that the process would go forward on it's own? That defies belief if you ask anyone with a reasonable amount of business sense. (The reciprocity or zero sum issue is a dead one...agreed?)
You have stated, what apparently you believe is fact that the regulator refuses to follow their own laws.....what is the basis for that claim, and think about your answer a bit before you simply regurgate the unsubstantiated ramblings of another poster.
SW...has carte blanche. Really? How do you actually know that?
A big part of the whole issue as far as TFWs in the aviation sector is not only the focus on Sunwing to almost the total exclusion of all other companies involved in the practice, but that a poster can come on here and make claim after claim, and as their claims are appealing to others, they become fact. It just aint so.
Throw enough mud against the wall, and eventually some will stick. But despite that attempt, not very much has stuck.
I try to be cautious about making claims like the regulator ignoring their own laws, (whatever that actually means). I find others, not so much. And yet others who have made claims that what SW was doing was blatently illegal..something those with a vested interest were all to willing to believe.
The use of TFWs as a part of a long term business model makes sense to me. It allows a company to grow with less risk exposure. Remain profitable, and ultimately provide employment for Many Canadians, not just pilots.
But it also means that if the model is successful it may necessarily impact on the competitors.
It is a great competitive strategy, then, to have someone demonstrate concern for all Canadian pilots as it supposedly will be broadly excepted as a grand battle for the rights of downtrodden Canadian pilots...and so many of them simply dont question the facts, or even consider them carefully.
If the trend of using TFWs is downward, the only issue I see is that the trend is not happening fast enough for some, and has SW eating their competitor's lunches. Besides, the TFW issue is about more than Air Transit's competitor, and even in just the aviation sector , more than that.
Maybe ask yourself why some people are putting so much focus on a specific company. In the grand scheme of things, there are some helicopter companies that, as a percentage of their pilots, are above the number of SunWings,
But some of the grand champions of the cause dont work for their competitors.
Sheeple is a good word.
My rant for the day, and now I will run for cover and leave it to the rest of you before the howling mob attacks...
Here is what I get from your post
The regulator in Canada refuses to follow their own Laws...the Government will only make small changes but continues to yell from their stump that it's under control...yet SW still has carte blanche to bring in TFW'S. Tell us how that's a change...I will believe you when NO foreign pilots take Canadian Pilot's jobs. In the meantime, if no one was to say anything, is it your belief that the process would go forward on it's own? That defies belief if you ask anyone with a reasonable amount of business sense. (The reciprocity or zero sum issue is a dead one...agreed?)
You have stated, what apparently you believe is fact that the regulator refuses to follow their own laws.....what is the basis for that claim, and think about your answer a bit before you simply regurgate the unsubstantiated ramblings of another poster.
SW...has carte blanche. Really? How do you actually know that?
A big part of the whole issue as far as TFWs in the aviation sector is not only the focus on Sunwing to almost the total exclusion of all other companies involved in the practice, but that a poster can come on here and make claim after claim, and as their claims are appealing to others, they become fact. It just aint so.
Throw enough mud against the wall, and eventually some will stick. But despite that attempt, not very much has stuck.
I try to be cautious about making claims like the regulator ignoring their own laws, (whatever that actually means). I find others, not so much. And yet others who have made claims that what SW was doing was blatently illegal..something those with a vested interest were all to willing to believe.
The use of TFWs as a part of a long term business model makes sense to me. It allows a company to grow with less risk exposure. Remain profitable, and ultimately provide employment for Many Canadians, not just pilots.
But it also means that if the model is successful it may necessarily impact on the competitors.
It is a great competitive strategy, then, to have someone demonstrate concern for all Canadian pilots as it supposedly will be broadly excepted as a grand battle for the rights of downtrodden Canadian pilots...and so many of them simply dont question the facts, or even consider them carefully.
If the trend of using TFWs is downward, the only issue I see is that the trend is not happening fast enough for some, and has SW eating their competitor's lunches. Besides, the TFW issue is about more than Air Transit's competitor, and even in just the aviation sector , more than that.
Maybe ask yourself why some people are putting so much focus on a specific company. In the grand scheme of things, there are some helicopter companies that, as a percentage of their pilots, are above the number of SunWings,
But some of the grand champions of the cause dont work for their competitors.
Sheeple is a good word.
My rant for the day, and now I will run for cover and leave it to the rest of you before the howling mob attacks...
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Treykule, how do you know about TFW pilots at certain Canadian helicopter companies, about the number of TFW pilots they have ?
You know it from me, and the Access to Information Requests (ATIP) that I have made, obtained, and made public on several Forums to which you subscribe. Me, the same guy who attacks Sunwing for using close to 200 Foreign pilots every year for the past 4 years.
And you have the gall to criticize me for making a larger fuss over Sunwing than the Helicopter Operators.
The reason is that although some Helicopter Operators proportionally use more TFW pilots than Sunwing does, it remains that their numbers are relatively small.
In 2013, ESDC allowed 356 TFW pilots into Canada and 120 of those were Sunwing's, the balance spread among other Canadian Operators.
In 2014, ESDC allowed 218 TFW pilots into Canada and 110 of those were Sunwing's, the balance spread among other Canadian Operators.
The numbers do not reveal the full reality because in addition to the above numbers, Sunwing also Wet-Leased 4 foreign aircraft in 2013 and five in 2014, each one of which brought over a dozen foreign pilots into Canada.
And you want to know for whom change is not happening fast enough ? No me that has a steady job and a paycheck coming in every two weeks. Those that have fire to their feet are those Canadians that lost their jobs, who may also lose homes in the process, that are qualified B737 pilots and who don't understand why they should remain on EI, accept some low paying job or go into exile in China when Sunwing is hiring and has just applied for 105 TFW pilots for next winter, claiming as always, that it is to fill a so called labour shortage of pilots in Canada, as though those Type rated Canjet guys did not exist. Several of those Canjet pilots are ex Skyservice, ex Zoom etc....
Explain to them why they must wait on the sidelines and possibly lose their homes while Sunwing is allowed to slowly reduces its addiction to foreign pilots over several years. Why over several years ? Why not now ?
I think if we all knew your identity, your stance would become clear to all readers here. Your replies to any of my posts are to defend what Sunwing does and an attempt to always discredit me and always question my motives. I post under my real name. What could yours possibly reveal ?
You know it from me, and the Access to Information Requests (ATIP) that I have made, obtained, and made public on several Forums to which you subscribe. Me, the same guy who attacks Sunwing for using close to 200 Foreign pilots every year for the past 4 years.
And you have the gall to criticize me for making a larger fuss over Sunwing than the Helicopter Operators.
The reason is that although some Helicopter Operators proportionally use more TFW pilots than Sunwing does, it remains that their numbers are relatively small.
In 2013, ESDC allowed 356 TFW pilots into Canada and 120 of those were Sunwing's, the balance spread among other Canadian Operators.
In 2014, ESDC allowed 218 TFW pilots into Canada and 110 of those were Sunwing's, the balance spread among other Canadian Operators.
The numbers do not reveal the full reality because in addition to the above numbers, Sunwing also Wet-Leased 4 foreign aircraft in 2013 and five in 2014, each one of which brought over a dozen foreign pilots into Canada.
And you want to know for whom change is not happening fast enough ? No me that has a steady job and a paycheck coming in every two weeks. Those that have fire to their feet are those Canadians that lost their jobs, who may also lose homes in the process, that are qualified B737 pilots and who don't understand why they should remain on EI, accept some low paying job or go into exile in China when Sunwing is hiring and has just applied for 105 TFW pilots for next winter, claiming as always, that it is to fill a so called labour shortage of pilots in Canada, as though those Type rated Canjet guys did not exist. Several of those Canjet pilots are ex Skyservice, ex Zoom etc....
Explain to them why they must wait on the sidelines and possibly lose their homes while Sunwing is allowed to slowly reduces its addiction to foreign pilots over several years. Why over several years ? Why not now ?
I think if we all knew your identity, your stance would become clear to all readers here. Your replies to any of my posts are to defend what Sunwing does and an attempt to always discredit me and always question my motives. I post under my real name. What could yours possibly reveal ?
Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt; 15th May 2015 at 02:44.
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At the end of the day...
- Sectors of the aviation business in Canada are highly seasonal
- It's unreasonable to require companies to employ 100% staff year-round for what is a seasonal business
- It's unrealistic to think that 100% of the seasonal demand can be filled by qualified Canadians pilots alone
So the crux of the discussion is simply how many foreign pilots need to come every year.
We each can have an opinion if it should be less, or if it should be more, or if the levels are acceptable -- but opinion is not law.
Everything else is rhetoric. E.g., "balancing" the number of foreign pilots coming in vs. Canadian pilots going elsewhere, etc., is nice but irrelevant to the core of the issue.
- Sectors of the aviation business in Canada are highly seasonal
- It's unreasonable to require companies to employ 100% staff year-round for what is a seasonal business
- It's unrealistic to think that 100% of the seasonal demand can be filled by qualified Canadians pilots alone
So the crux of the discussion is simply how many foreign pilots need to come every year.
We each can have an opinion if it should be less, or if it should be more, or if the levels are acceptable -- but opinion is not law.
Everything else is rhetoric. E.g., "balancing" the number of foreign pilots coming in vs. Canadian pilots going elsewhere, etc., is nice but irrelevant to the core of the issue.
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Trey et al
I recall a conversation several years ago with a friend at Sunwing regarding the use of TFW at his place of employment, and he assured me, at the time, that it was only a temporary situation, and that within a year or so, they would be fully staffed by Canadian pilots. I suppose he believed the rhetoric from the top. I'm pretty sure you do as well. The regulator in Canada has time and again, broken it's own regulations (or the Law, but you prefer to challenge on a very small point, so you can have that little win.) The proof is easy to find. Follow the evidence in the CAR's and you will find it. (Mr Huddicourt has also been very generous with his evidence on this.) It's clear to many, but you find it easier to make your arguments for the program (TFW) based on the "it's not fair, we use less each year, and you guys are wrong because someone else did it first, and if we change we'll go out of business..." Strong argument? No... Sour grapes? Yes. When you can tell us that Sunwing will hire the needed crews and put 100% Canadian pilots to work, and open the seasonal Captain jobs rather than keep unemployed QUALIFIED pilots on the street, the shouting will stop. When Sunwing can play fairly, they will no doubt garner the respect they so crave as a good employer. Until then, the argument will continue, and the publicity will continue harming the staff who work hard and professionally. It's a shame that Sunwing staff are smeared by the bad smell caused by it's management. You'd best consider directing your argument in that direction rather than here and maybe you'd regain a little credibility. Incidentally, if I seem to be targeting Sunwing, how about you do this...replace Sunwing with the name of any aviation company who gets away with the lie that there are no qualified pilots, so we need TFW help. There...feel better?
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You know it from me, and the Access to Information Requests (ATIP) that I have made, obtained, and made public on several Forums to which you subscribe. Me, the same guy who attacks Sunwing for using close to 200 Foreign pilots every year for the past 4 years.
Another One of your false claims. I did not get that information from you
Get over yourself.
Another One of your false claims. I did not get that information from you
Get over yourself.
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The Fairy Godmother told you perhaps.
Name your source and you will see how it comes right back to me.
Of course you won't.
Name your source and you will see how it comes right back to me.
Of course you won't.
Last edited by Gilles Hudicourt; 15th May 2015 at 21:25.
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I have no intention of naming names on a public forum. Believe what you will, but I assure you that the issue of TFWs by the rotary wing industry was known long to myself and many many others before you trumpeted it out.
Your mud slinging, mob attacking, calling out people is, not helping things like you would like to think , or have us believe
Anyway, before I sink any closer toyour level, I will stop posting for now.
Your mud slinging, mob attacking, calling out people is, not helping things like you would like to think , or have us believe
Anyway, before I sink any closer toyour level, I will stop posting for now.
I have a great idea, How about Canadian pilots be banned from working in ANY other country, the glut of experienced pilots returning to Canada will screw you all very much.
How about Voyger, Ken Borek etc be confined to Canada only and then how many pilots work for them ?
How about Voyger, Ken Borek etc be confined to Canada only and then how many pilots work for them ?
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Really?
Hey Ejector,
How do you figure that? In almost all cases the Canadian pilots you so quickly condemn aren't taking jobs away from other QUALIFIED pilots in their home (foreign) countries. Those jobs do go to almost all locals who want them and can be trained. Then the foreign pilots are replaced by those locals. The Canadian pilots, along with many other nationalities are required to keep the level of qualified staffing up...otherwise those types of companies might fail. As for returning home, just where would you have them go? There's a very good chance they had to leave because the company they worked for let them go in a downsize or failed outright. I'm gonna say that almost all new hires at most Canadian companies have to join at the bottom of a seniority list and those who are returning and need or want to work will always have to deal with that...and likely not for the first time their career. If they took a leave of absence to work off shore they would still have a seniority number in place. Why the hate? It's not hard to figure out...most come home to resume a job they already have. Or retire...in which case your job is safe!
How do you figure that? In almost all cases the Canadian pilots you so quickly condemn aren't taking jobs away from other QUALIFIED pilots in their home (foreign) countries. Those jobs do go to almost all locals who want them and can be trained. Then the foreign pilots are replaced by those locals. The Canadian pilots, along with many other nationalities are required to keep the level of qualified staffing up...otherwise those types of companies might fail. As for returning home, just where would you have them go? There's a very good chance they had to leave because the company they worked for let them go in a downsize or failed outright. I'm gonna say that almost all new hires at most Canadian companies have to join at the bottom of a seniority list and those who are returning and need or want to work will always have to deal with that...and likely not for the first time their career. If they took a leave of absence to work off shore they would still have a seniority number in place. Why the hate? It's not hard to figure out...most come home to resume a job they already have. Or retire...in which case your job is safe!