Canadian MPL
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: At home
Age: 64
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Canadian MPL
It appears that Transport Canada has recently approved a Canadian MPL process that is inline with ICAO standards. Any commentary from those on the board about this change.
Are there any airlines / training organizations offering this type of training?
Are there any airlines / training organizations offering this type of training?
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,306
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Zaphod, I doubt that in spite of the "race to the bottom" that any sane Canadian airline manager would consider hiring any one holding a MPL. After Air France and Asiana, my insurance company has made it quite clear that they will not cover operators who may go this route. Where I live a backhoe operator requires more training than a MPL if he wants to work on public projects, unless said backhoe operator digs up a gas pipe line its unlikely he/she could kill as many people in four minutes as Air France did. You just gota love our minister of transport, Lisa Rait, "this was introduced to increase safety", The late director of flight training in TC must have trouble sleeping at night after allowing this in to Canada!
The Canadian MPL was approved after pressure by a small number of training establishments that want to offer the MPL to foreign students who will be sponsored by their home country airline. This is about flight training businesses that want to cash in on the demand for FO's from Asian and Middle East Airlines
I don't see any Canadian airline ever sponsoring an MPL program.
I don't see any Canadian airline ever sponsoring an MPL program.
Never say never. If the pool of new pilots shrinks here in Canada as the rewards continue to dwindle, the airlines will need new recruits from somewhere. The program between Air Georgian and Air Canada is the next step of the evolution that will eventually lead to MPL in Canada. I'm not a fan, but it is an unavoidable reality unless pay rates increase significantly.
Talk to some flight schools about the huge drop off they've had in new students who are pursuing an aviation career. A few schools have even closed operations because of it.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: At home
Age: 64
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks to all for your replies. It is about as I expected. However here in the lower 48 the recent 1500 hour rule requirement is being tested. Brian Bedford, CEO of Republic Airways, was up on Capitol Hill last week complaining in congressional hearings about the pilot shortage and the recent new ATP requirement.
He can't find pilots who want to work for his airline for what he is willing to pay. It seems that many wanna be pilots have figured out the story. Pay lots of money to get the training and ratings and then take a job that is barely above minimum wage. Then hope that you can get on with a major.
If that plan doesn't work you can be abused for the rest of your life by a commuter airline.
The industry's reply is to simply lower the standard. Not to raise the pay and working conditions.
MPL will be coming to the US. I dread it but it is coming.
He can't find pilots who want to work for his airline for what he is willing to pay. It seems that many wanna be pilots have figured out the story. Pay lots of money to get the training and ratings and then take a job that is barely above minimum wage. Then hope that you can get on with a major.
If that plan doesn't work you can be abused for the rest of your life by a commuter airline.
The industry's reply is to simply lower the standard. Not to raise the pay and working conditions.
MPL will be coming to the US. I dread it but it is coming.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,306
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Zaphod, I fear that you may be right, but the public has to understand that Q400s just don't fall out of the sky unless things are very wrong at the pointy end, nor do aircraft stall and crash into the Atlantic and seawalls if flown by trained and experienced crews, just compare the performance of the Qantas crew who landed a crippled aircraft with these previous mentioned crashes. The good news is the insurance industry is having second thoughts about covering some operators, the bad news is some of these outfits don't need coverage, the have enough cash in their national coffers to cover any loses. Recently I heard a bean counter talk about "acceptable hull loss rate" we can only hope that he is onboard one of these "acceptable "crashes!
Multi Crew License. Otherwise known as the Microsoft Crew License 
You get 60 or so hours in a light plane all dual and then 250 ish hours in a Jet Airliner Sim. You have to be sponsored by an airline and you will use their SOP's from day one.
When you graduate you will not legally be allowed to fly a Cessna 150 solo but you be able to go straight on to the line as an Airbus or Boeing FO.
The reason it is unlikely to happen in Canada is that the program has to be sponsored by the airline which means a fair amount of effort and some cost to the airline. Why would any Canadian airline bother when there is still a big pool of pilots with actual flying experience available.
The closest any 705 operator in Canada has come to this is JAZZ. They are taking some 250 hrs guys/gals straight our of a few college programs. Folks in the know tell me that this program will stay limited as the guys need much more extra training before they can be released on to the line.
You get 60 or so hours in a light plane all dual and then 250 ish hours in a Jet Airliner Sim. You have to be sponsored by an airline and you will use their SOP's from day one.
When you graduate you will not legally be allowed to fly a Cessna 150 solo but you be able to go straight on to the line as an Airbus or Boeing FO.
The reason it is unlikely to happen in Canada is that the program has to be sponsored by the airline which means a fair amount of effort and some cost to the airline. Why would any Canadian airline bother when there is still a big pool of pilots with actual flying experience available.
The closest any 705 operator in Canada has come to this is JAZZ. They are taking some 250 hrs guys/gals straight our of a few college programs. Folks in the know tell me that this program will stay limited as the guys need much more extra training before they can be released on to the line.
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Kenora
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't see how this would benefit a Canadian airline. Where's the $$ saving? The airline would still have to SIM train the candidate. Just like now. I know European airlines are using a cadet program. Most use cruise pilots, but for the most part, these cruise pilots are, indeed pilots. I think Asian companies going this route, due to no in country talent. Canada is full of guys loading airplanes in the north that would recognize a stall before the airplane gets wet.
WD
WD
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: East end.
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Race to the bottom? I suggest we be proactive and make MPLs the bottom.
I'd sell out new hire MPL pilots on the next contract if I could have a raise and more days off. Besides, it's not like we weren't sold out by the last generation... and will you ever really respect a pilot that can't even go out in a light cessna by themselves? Fock ém.
I'd sell out new hire MPL pilots on the next contract if I could have a raise and more days off. Besides, it's not like we weren't sold out by the last generation... and will you ever really respect a pilot that can't even go out in a light cessna by themselves? Fock ém.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Wherever I go, there I am
Age: 43
Posts: 804
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You know...one could also blame capitalism or consumerism (whichever the term of the day is). The race to the bottom is just as much a fault of the passengers going to Buffalo for a cheap flight rather than flying from Pearson, or the CEO cutting jobs and wages to fill owners' pockets as it is our newest generation of pilots.
Unfortunately, no one is willing to pay the $1,500 - $2,000 it used to cost to cross the pond just to know that there are two people with experience at the pointy end who make a descent wage.
Pilot wages have gone down, in part, because of our own need to undercut one another and the reasons I describe above. That's why the MPL is here to stay. Canada just happens to have enough people willing to pay the exorbitant cost of learning to fly such that it will be a couple years until the MPL takes hold...but just you wait until the first day Air Canada or WestJet can no longer fill a ground school because of a lack of applicants.
Just my 2c.
Unfortunately, no one is willing to pay the $1,500 - $2,000 it used to cost to cross the pond just to know that there are two people with experience at the pointy end who make a descent wage.
Pilot wages have gone down, in part, because of our own need to undercut one another and the reasons I describe above. That's why the MPL is here to stay. Canada just happens to have enough people willing to pay the exorbitant cost of learning to fly such that it will be a couple years until the MPL takes hold...but just you wait until the first day Air Canada or WestJet can no longer fill a ground school because of a lack of applicants.
Just my 2c.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Canada
Posts: 819
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think we'll see a single Canadian MPL issued by Transport Canada. I believe foreign students training in YQM (and maybe elsewhere in Canada) may hold Canadian licences for validation when they return to their home country and their job-for-life flying jobs. That crowd may be getting TC MPLs but I wouldn't know.
First of all, it's an airline sponsored program that costs approximately $300,000.00 per trainee. Requires a university degree and a battery of 'tests' just to be accepted into the program. And there's one more caveat, only the best candidates get through.
Any suggestions as to which Canadian airline might be the first to put out those kind of bucks for that as a solution to any pilot shortage?
What about the candidate "self sponsoring" their training? Think that'll happen?
I don't think Transport Canada spent much time thinking this through. If they did they sure as hell don't know the first thing about aviation in Canada.
Willie Everlearn
First of all, it's an airline sponsored program that costs approximately $300,000.00 per trainee. Requires a university degree and a battery of 'tests' just to be accepted into the program. And there's one more caveat, only the best candidates get through.
Any suggestions as to which Canadian airline might be the first to put out those kind of bucks for that as a solution to any pilot shortage?
What about the candidate "self sponsoring" their training? Think that'll happen?
I don't think Transport Canada spent much time thinking this through. If they did they sure as hell don't know the first thing about aviation in Canada.
Willie Everlearn
Last edited by Willie Everlearn; 9th May 2014 at 03:32.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Wherever I go, there I am
Age: 43
Posts: 804
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think Transport Canada spent much time thinking this through. If they did they sure as hell don't know the first thing about aviation in Canada.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys “MPL stuffs”vs “experience” is beyond your scope of thoughts as a simple pilot.
It is much more a management matter and the key is:
1.You hire a very experienced pilot in your company who bring with him a specific skill that is valuable in the global market = >The pilot got the power and may cost you a lot if you want to keep him depending on your competitors capacity to provide better wages=> The pilot is independent and powerful.
OR
2.You spend a huge amount of $$ to train a smart guy who never flown differently something else than one of your specific aircraft like a robot applying the SOP you always taught to him= He owes you everything, he is not valuable in the global market then dependant, you got the power and full control. He is stuck, time goes on and the $$ come back.
The only reason Option 2 is not widely spread is because it depend on your fleet level of technology. The more Boeing, Airbus and others will make the pilot experience irrelevant by developing self-secured aircraft technologies, the more option 2 will be chosen by operators.
It is much more a management matter and the key is:
1.You hire a very experienced pilot in your company who bring with him a specific skill that is valuable in the global market = >The pilot got the power and may cost you a lot if you want to keep him depending on your competitors capacity to provide better wages=> The pilot is independent and powerful.
OR
2.You spend a huge amount of $$ to train a smart guy who never flown differently something else than one of your specific aircraft like a robot applying the SOP you always taught to him= He owes you everything, he is not valuable in the global market then dependant, you got the power and full control. He is stuck, time goes on and the $$ come back.
The only reason Option 2 is not widely spread is because it depend on your fleet level of technology. The more Boeing, Airbus and others will make the pilot experience irrelevant by developing self-secured aircraft technologies, the more option 2 will be chosen by operators.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,306
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RK 303, as one who has owned and run my own aviation companies, all of which were very successful ,I doubt that the reasons for the "bean counters" logic is beyond me, however, the insurance industry is starting to have grave concerns about the recent spate of hull loses, this may be the factor which plays a major role in the MPL coming to Canada in the future. Having said this, some of the carriers simply don't insure their hulls having so much cash {Petro dollars} that the self insure. As an end note I have a filthy rich elder brother, the BOD of one of his companies have published a list of airlines he is forbidden to fly on should the corporate jet {a Global} go U/S, I would love to get my hands on the list, but cant.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: At home
Age: 64
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I attended a training conference at Embry Riddle in March where compliance with the new US ATP requirements were discussed. The panels were mostly US Aviation Colleges, and their questions centered around the FAA paperwork required to certify the reduced hourly requirements for the new restricted ATP.
It was interesting to note the caliber of some of the others at the conference. Boeing, Airbus, Embarer. United, Delta, American Eagle and some other regional airlines were also present. The consensus at the regional airlines is that they cannot fill their new hire classes. The new 1500 hour ATP rule is to blame. The major Carriers and manufacturers are watching this very closely. The Airbus representative stated that Airbus was not going to allow a pilot shortage to affect sales.
The consensus of this body was that the US needs a MCL program and they need it as soon as possible. On April 25, Brian Bedford, CEO of Republic Airways, went before an Aviation Subcommittee of the US Congress and testified that the new ATP requirements are a terrible idea and should be scrapped and he argued that new hire regional airline pay had nothing to do with the pilot shortage.
In February of 2014 the US Federal GAO or General Accounting Office published a 61 page report on the Current and Future Availability of Airline Pilots. The report concluded that there was not pilot shortage but there were a shortage of pilots willing to work at the wages and conditions being provided by regional airlines.
If you consider the added costs that a candidate might encounter if he has to pay for advanced simulator training to gain even the reduced competence required to gain an MPL then I don't see much benefit to the MPL as a money saving plan for the airlines.
Even for those youngsters with visions of shiny jets in their eyes the staggering costs, and the added little kicker of the inability of those holding student loan debt to re-finance or discharge that debt in Chapter 11, and this is another story entirely, is a major obstacle. Why would any one take on that burden for a job that will not pay enough to pay off the loan?
I believe in the free market. A pricing signal is the primary means by which the market tells you that there is too much or too little of something. If there is scarcity the price rises. If there is abundance the price is likely to fall. The regional airline industry doesn't like to admit it and they want to cloud the issue but if they want more pilots they simply need to pay more. Structure the pay such that a new hire can pay off his training debt and they will have enough candidates.
Here endith the lesson.
It was interesting to note the caliber of some of the others at the conference. Boeing, Airbus, Embarer. United, Delta, American Eagle and some other regional airlines were also present. The consensus at the regional airlines is that they cannot fill their new hire classes. The new 1500 hour ATP rule is to blame. The major Carriers and manufacturers are watching this very closely. The Airbus representative stated that Airbus was not going to allow a pilot shortage to affect sales.
The consensus of this body was that the US needs a MCL program and they need it as soon as possible. On April 25, Brian Bedford, CEO of Republic Airways, went before an Aviation Subcommittee of the US Congress and testified that the new ATP requirements are a terrible idea and should be scrapped and he argued that new hire regional airline pay had nothing to do with the pilot shortage.
In February of 2014 the US Federal GAO or General Accounting Office published a 61 page report on the Current and Future Availability of Airline Pilots. The report concluded that there was not pilot shortage but there were a shortage of pilots willing to work at the wages and conditions being provided by regional airlines.
If you consider the added costs that a candidate might encounter if he has to pay for advanced simulator training to gain even the reduced competence required to gain an MPL then I don't see much benefit to the MPL as a money saving plan for the airlines.
Even for those youngsters with visions of shiny jets in their eyes the staggering costs, and the added little kicker of the inability of those holding student loan debt to re-finance or discharge that debt in Chapter 11, and this is another story entirely, is a major obstacle. Why would any one take on that burden for a job that will not pay enough to pay off the loan?
I believe in the free market. A pricing signal is the primary means by which the market tells you that there is too much or too little of something. If there is scarcity the price rises. If there is abundance the price is likely to fall. The regional airline industry doesn't like to admit it and they want to cloud the issue but if they want more pilots they simply need to pay more. Structure the pay such that a new hire can pay off his training debt and they will have enough candidates.
Here endith the lesson.