Foreign pilots as temporary workers for Airlines in Canada

[PT6A]

Lilflyboy,

Your spot on... He can't make his point on here with us, let alone against the army of lawyers from TUI.

I'm sure all in all it balances out if you take a wide view of the aviation labor market, not just focus on a single part of a vast industry.

Canada was already taught a lesson by the UAE regarding protectionism, this resulted in very high fees for Canadians to be issued a visa amount other things.

[Montrealguy]

Originally Posted by lilflyboy262...2

Most of these guys love not working in the winter time. It gives them time to work on other things in their life. Or at least thats what they told me.
It is far removed from being on EI that's for sure!

My quote was about those water-bomber pilots who are on UI in the winter. Obviously the Quebec Government water-bomber pilots who have an annual salary and do nil flying in the winter and spend it at their cottage are quite happy. But many either have non-flying activities in the winter or are on UI.

Originally Posted by lilflyboy262...2

My original question. As far as I am aware, if you are flying on say, a ZS, VH, ZK (insert other nations regos here), then you must hold that applicable states licence.

Yes or a Validation of your licence by that country's Civil Aviation authorities.

Originally Posted by lilflyboy262...2

If they are bringing in aircraft from other countries, then you must hold that applicable licence to fly that aircraft.
Are you saying that they should be bringing in those aircraft, registering them in Canada, so canadian pilots can fly them, then shipping them back to europe and reregistering them there?
Think about how many months the aircraft would be grounded for each year for this to take place. How on earth would that make economic sense?

Yet what you describe is exactly what is going on. Last winter Sunwing Dry-Leased about 14 B-737s which were put on the Canadian registry. Only one was Wet-Leased and remained on Czech registry and that one aircraft could only be flown by Czech pilots working for Travel Service. The 20 others (the dry-leased and the Sunwing aircraft) were flown by Canadian pilots and by the contracted foreign pilots whose Foreign licences had been validated by TC. That process of de-registering and re-registering is quite routine and is done twice a year for some aircraft. The aircraft can do a last flight under Canadian registry and be ferried to its home country the next day with its original German or whatever registry. No grounding involved.

Originally Posted by lilflyboy262...2

Also, what are your views on Canadian companies flying in places like Norway doing survey work, on canadian registered aircraft, with canadian pilots, when there is suitable norwegian pilots and aircraft in the area?

This is a very specialized aircraft. A survey aircraft cost millions to modify and flying it is a specialty. The contract is normally short. It is neither a wet-lease nor a dry-lease to another airline, its plain contract work, not even for an airline. There was a case recently of a Russian registered MI-26 helicopter with Russian pilots working for an oil drilling company in Northern Canada. The MI-26 can sling 20 metric tonnes, something no other helicopter can do. It would haul oil rigs from one remote northern area to another. A bit like your Norwegian example.

Here is that MI-26 pictured in Yellowknife, Canada

[Montrealguy]

Also, what are your views on Canadian companies flying in places like Norway doing survey work, on canadian registered aircraft, with canadian pilots, when there is suitable norwegian pilots and aircraft in the area?

For many years, a Canadian company, Skylink has had a contract with the Canadian Military to haul military vehicles and gear to Afghanistan and back. This required a large ramped airlifter larger than a C-130. Skylink Wet-Leased Il-76s and An-124s from Russia, Ukraine and Azerbaijan to perform this contract. This has been going on since 2001. No one ever complained, for no Canadian could do that work.

Flying Canadian registered B-737s is a whole different story. This contracting out flying jobs to foreigners to help TUI save money has got to stop.

[lilflyboy262...2]

I'm not talking about special aircraft charters that are one off, or war time events.
There are Canadian companies offering charter and scheduled services in a lot of African Nations.
The norwegian example I gave was with Cessna Caravan's. There is multiple companies there capable of carrying out that work.

I find it hard to believe that there is no checks involved in the registration process. I know that when they are going back onto a New Zealand rego there is a long process to get them registered. In fact, the A320 that crashed in France a few years back was on its check flight.

Are you sure it was the Canadian Registry and not just on sunwings AOC? From all the operations that I have flown/worked with, this is how they worked it.
Much easier for a pilot to get a validation than change an aircrafts rego...

[Montrealguy]

I find it hard to believe that there is no checks involved in the registration process....
...Are you sure it was the Canadian Registry and not just on sunwings AOC? From all the operations that I have flown/worked with, this is how they worked it.
Much easier for a pilot to get a validation than change an aircrafts rego...

Are you going to make me prove everything I say ?

OK-TVK arrrived in Canada, became C-FGVK for Sunwing this last winter and left for home as OK-TVK for Travel Service.




G-FDZG rrived from the UK, became C-FRZG for Sunwing this last winter or turned back into G-FDZG for Thomson Airways



This is how they do it. They are mostly on the Canadian Aircraft Registry while in Canada.

Here is a link to the Canadian aircraft registry. Look them up:

Canadian Civil Aircraft Register - Historical Search


C-FRZG was registered in Canada on Dec 16 2011 and the registration was cancelled on March 21, 2012.

It was on the Canadian registry 3 months and 5 days. And you can also see that this same aircraft had been on the Canadian registry before.

[lilflyboy262...2]

Looking through that list, I only see 10 registered last year, not 14, and only 8 left this year.

The other part that I am failing to see, is how the reciprocal agreement is meant to work if all the winter spots are being filled by Canadian crews?
The European pilots won't have jobs to come here to, so why should they let Canadian pilots fly over there in the winter?
Well its great that the waterbomber crews now get year long work and effectively two salaries, but what about the guys who relied on going overseas?

[Denti]

Canadians flying abroad fill in where there are not enough pilots(ME, China, etc) and will be out the day their local replacement is trained (happened before, will happened again).

Might be true in the ME or China, but is simply not true in Europe where tons of canadian pilots work as well. We have quite a few in my company, they applied, passed the tests (general pass level below 5% of those applying) and then got a permanent contract. Same is true for a lot of other nationalities of course. And the airline is german (no, not Tui). Do we cry unfair about foreign pilots taking our jobs? Certainly not, its life, nothing wrong with that. So, if you want those jobs, get your EASA licence, jump through the hoops and join the fun, it is not difficult.

Anyway, just think a few years ahead. Employing foreign pilots on canadian registered aircraft is outlawed in canada. Does that mean that no european pilots will fly during winter? Far from it, they just will fly on wet leases, with a european license it doesn't matter where the aircraft is registered in europe, the license holder can fly them all (and some outside europe who use EASA/JAR licenses as well). A change of operater course between same typed companies is all of one day without any simulator training needed and therefore companies exchange their pilots in europe and then send them over. Not difficult at all and all according to ICAO regulations. Is there anything won for canadians? Not at all, because any kind of reciprocity would cease with that kind of arrangement anyway.

[Left Coaster]

All sounds good right? Can you tell us if those Canadian pilots you mention have to have the right to work in the EU? Because every ad I've ever seen requires the right to abode in the EU, I'm thinking that the Canadian pilots you refer to have that right...tell me if I'm wrong and I'll stop asking. The wetlease deal you are talking about is still a loophole that keep Canadian pilots from working in their home country and you seem to think it's fine. Canuck jobs should be for Canuck pilots. The old song about those same pilots taking jobs in countries like the ME or China doesn't work...those countries simply don't have the expertise or will to train their own people quickly enough and use the expertise available (no matter how ****ty as you seem to like pointing out) This is an old thread and it's getting boring...

[PT6A]

I'm not sure about Denti's case...

But for properly qualified pilots the airline can get you the work visa in Europe.

By properly qualified I mean type rated with time on type, not a bush pilot.

[Montrealguy]

Originally Posted by Denti

Might be true in the ME or China, but is simply not true in Europe where tons of canadian pilots work as well. We have quite a few in my company, they applied, passed the tests (general pass level below 5% of those applying) and then got a permanent contract. Same is true for a lot of other nationalities of course. And the airline is german (no, not Tui). Do we cry unfair about foreign pilots taking our jobs? Certainly not, its life, nothing wrong with that. So, if you want those jobs, get your EASA licence, jump through the hoops and join the fun, it is not difficult.

Let's not mix apples and oranges. We are not talking here about Foreigners who come to Canada with a Canadian Residence, obtain a Canadian Licence and get a job in Canada. There are tons of those here in Canada beginning with myself who arrived in Canada as an immigrant in 1990.

What we are talking about is Canadian Airlines, giving out temporary seasonal pilots jobs to Foreigners who are not residents of Canada and who do not have Canadian Pilot licences, who do not pay one cent of taxes in Canada. This is done to save money for certain airlines but at the expense of Canadian pilots, at the expense of Canadian taxpayers, at the expense of most other Canadian airlines that do not do this.

I also have Canadian friends who went to work in Europe. They did like I did when I came to Canada. They obtained legal residence in a EU country, wrote the exams and obtained a JAR licence (now EASA) and found themselves a job. They have since purchased homes in Europe, reside in Europe, pay taxes there, raised their families there. It's not the same thing.

[PT6A]

Have you expressed these views to TUI? Maybe you could enlighten them with your plan, a better way of doing things?

[pcm]

Montreal Guy, do you care about foreign pilots or do you care about something much more personal?

Just to recap. Sunwing enters the charter market, AT laughs. Sunwing excels and expands in the charter market at the expense of AT, AT wants to buy them. Sunwing tells them to get lost. Previously AT signed an agreement with WJ for lift, even though it's expensive but who cares, there's no competition. Sunwing continues to expand and be profitable, AT starts a smear campaign based on pure BS going so far as writing all the tour companies telling them Sunwing is going out of business and not to book with them. Then the lawyers get involved. AT and WJ part ways early and WJ starts up their own vacation company after AT showed them the way. AT contracts CJ who in turn was the first company to use the temporary workers. Sunwing opposed it. At the time Sunwing had 4 European bases with NO foreign pilots working in Canada for the winter. Sunwing, after watching AT do it through CJ starts doing the same. Last fall AT hired to many pilots, their own mistake and laid them off. Who did AT blame? Why of course Sunwing, even though CJ doing business for AT had foreign pilots working for them. Loved the speech by your MEC blaming Sunwing.

Now let's look at the competition. Air Canada is crunching AT from the top, WJ is crunching AT from the side and Sunwing is crunching AT from below. Imagine if someone at CJ grows a brain and starts their own east coast tour operation and leaves AT.

As for foreign pilots in Canada, I think what's going on right now is BS. It should be 100% reciprocal. If you manage to stop what's happening right now, guess what's going to happen, guess what's already happening? We now have more wet leases coming. Perfect (sarcasm) even less Canadians working at Sunwing.

Let's call a spade a spade, what's the real reason for your campaign? Your job?

[Montrealguy]

On October 26 2011, Captain Paul Strachan, President, Air Canada Pilots Association, spoke against the use of Foreign pilots as temporary workers in front of of the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications. Here is the link:

Transport, Issue 2 - Evidence, October 26, 2011

On November 30th, 2011, Captain Dan Adamus, President, Canada Board, of the Air Line Pilots Association, also spoke againts the use as Foreign pilots as temporary worker by Canadian Airlines in front of Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications. More than 50% of that Union's membership is made up of the 1500 Air Canada Jazz pilots. About 150 ALPA members on whose behalf Capt Adamus was speaking are Canjet Pilots. Here is that link:

Transport, Issue 5 - Evidence, November 30, 2011

These two Unions alone represent over 6000 Airline pilots in Canada.

We just made a petition to the minister of Immigration which was signed by 2500 pilots, including dozens of Sunwing and Canjet pilots.

Air Transat employs a little over 400 pilots. So come again ? Where do these facts fit into your little theory on my real motivations ?

Perhaps you should try attacking my religion or my patriotism next time.....

You are attempting to spook me with wet leases but I fail to see the difference to Canadian pilots between a wet lease, flown by foreign pilots, and a dry lease, also flown by foreign pilots. It's four quarters against a dollar bill as far as I am concerned. Both are bad, both need to be stopped and both will.

[PT6A]

What are you smoking!?

You really think all of a sudden you are going to stop wet leases?

Even if you do it will result in the same thing (actually worse) more Canadians out of work!

The poster above has a point... what is your axe? Did TUI refuse to give you a job?

[Willie Everlearn]

PT6A

You'd greatly improve your credibility if you stopped posting on a subject you clearly have no intellectual capacity for.

What colour is the sky in your world?

Willie

[PT6A]

Same as the sky i see in Canada... each and every season I have flown over there!

[aileron]

Greetings from a Canadian/Brit flying for Thomson Airways in the UK (part of the TUI group).
We have pilots flying in Canada during the winter and have done so for atleast ten years. We bring Canadian pilots over in the Summer and have done so for atleast ten years. Opposite capacity issues, businesses working together and Aviation Authorities in the loop.

I have friends who still work in Canada, have met Canadians in the UK (indeed here at Thomson) and throughout the world. I like the happy open minded guys from back home best.


Do you know what I hate most? Arrogant, self absorbed, bitter and moaning pilots.

Lets put things into perspective.........Just got a note from a buddy at AC. Another round of arbitration....this is what he told me........

"as for AC if I could have my old job at ******** back I would leave yesterday. This is a good job but its extremely sterile. Most of the people I work with are nice, but many are extremely arrogant and possess a huge sense of entitlement.........." Not sure what the mood at AT is like but I suggest you let it go, enjoy your flying and enjoy your family more.

PT6A....pcm.....nice to see the other side of the argument for once.

[PT6A]

Thanks aileron,

These guys just need to see that an airline is there to make money.. Not as a place for them to enjoy flying aircraft. (that is sometimes a nice side benefit)

Lot's of Canadians fly everywhere, I'm sure they will not be agreeing with this stone age behavior that a few of these disgruntled pilots are displaying on here.

[Elias-8]

Canada vs. Europe

Hello all,

This is why I'm having such a hard time deciding where to train. Please read my post and comment.

http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...vs-europe.html

Thanks in advance.

[PT6A]

Where do you have the right to work?

If you have several options... It is best to get a European licence, it is far more simple to convert your EASA licence into a national licence eg. TC, FAA etc than the other way around.