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Seattle, gateway to Whistler

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Seattle, gateway to Whistler

Old 31st May 2012, 07:06
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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In theory Seattle should be no competition for YVR with repsect to Whistler. The extra journey time, the border wait, hours spent in a bus should make it a no brainer in favour of YVR.

However the lower costs of transit through Seatac, and the extra flight convenience make Seattle a viable and serious competitor. This alone brings hundreds of room nights to Seattle hotels and millions of dollars per year to Seattle shops, money that could have been spent in Vancouver.

I was, specifically, not engaging in the question of whether particular airlines are acting "fairly" or "poaching" customers from other carriers. How you feel about that largely depends, I think, on one's politics and perhaps on aspects of one's employment.

As far as I know the 'Golden Age" of regulated air travel was regulated for political (commercial) reasons as much as for safety and we see the hangover in 'slots' and the lingering rules about who can fly into where. It is rather strange. Fancy saying, for instance, that a toy manufacturer could not have access to a particular market for toys for five to ten year olds because they don't make toys for ten to twenty year olds.

Surely the answere for Air Canada is to provide a better service and if they can't compete on price then they should compete on value

Way back in the late sixties the value of the German Mark was going up so fast compared to the Pound it was hard to keep track and labour costs in Germany were higher than in the UK. I remember thinking at the time that the German car industry was doomed. Same again when the Japanese invasion started, but today you can't go anywhere without being knee deep in Mercedes, BMWs and VWs. I agree though, it sure is hard for AC when their home airport taxes etc are higher than the competition's but that's not the fault of the other airlines.

Canada needs a good airline infra structure more than Europe, the alternatives are not nearly as good, but our fares between cities domestically are nothing short of scandalous. I paid less than half, per mile, to travel around Asdia thgis last month than I 'd have to pay to get around Canada. I can't wait for the real low cost revolution to get here.

Last edited by ChrisVJ; 31st May 2012 at 07:34.
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Old 31st May 2012, 10:59
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Canada needs a good airline infra structure more than Europe, the alternatives are not nearly as good, but our fares between cities domestically are nothing short of scandalous. I paid less than half, per mile, to travel around Asia this last month than I 'd have to pay to get around Canada. I can't wait for the real low cost revolution to get here.
Are you willing to work for peanuts to help bring it forward? Because most of the people who made your flights in Asia happen are probably doing exactly that. Or is it okay just so long as the Walmartization of the economy doesn't affect you personally?
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Old 31st May 2012, 14:32
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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I agree though, it sure is hard for AC when their home airport taxes etc are higher than the competition's but that's not the fault of the other airlines
Took a while for the Emirates debate to come back. Still seems to be the same as before. Half of my work colleagues still drive to Buffalo to catch their flights to Florida because $200 flights against $500 makes more sense.
If you work for "peanuts" as it is put..then you are always looking for the cheaper option. What other terms would the general population look at....if people really cared about where their goods came from then the "Walmartization" of the economy would never have happened. Even millionaires become rich by looking for the cheaper option.

It has never been answered in this entire debate, the question of the tax rate in Canada. Air Canada are already put at a disadvantage by this mentioned above. They themselves have said that they would like the governtment to ease up a bit to allow them to compete with the US carriers. YYZ is still the most expensive place in the world to land. In this thread and the previous on this topic...no one could ever say WHY..and for what purpose?.
Western democracy..ra rah...Canadian government...ra rah.....and yet the government causes the industry in Canada no end of grief both through taxation and intervention (it seems). Meanwhile the legacy carrier of Air Canada has labour disputes galore, the shop floor workers don't trust the executive further than they can throw them...and the executive tell the govt to cut them some slack and ease up on airport tax, then the shop floor workers tell the govt to butt out of their labour processes..etc etc.

This is not the picture of a rosy aviation scene (and if anyone would care to list the amount of "failed" airlines in Canada in the last 10 years...Zoom, Skyservice and Harmony are 3 that spring to mind) and not really something to crow about. Where is the competition domestically? How does Canada compete with the US (YYZ against BUF, YVR against Seattle etc etc.)...how can they compete Trans Atlantic....when the barriers that are there to stop EK also affect the carriers you are trying to help (Westjet and Air Canada).
Canada may be responsible but that dosen`t mean they are always forward thinking.

We`ll see over the next few years. I hope for the industry`s sake that 555 and JO and the rest are right. Keep an eye on the US though...and keep an eye on the taxation rates at YVR, YUL and YYZ. See if they go down as the airlines have requested.
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Old 1st Jun 2012, 00:39
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Actually I have travelled around Europe by air cheaper than I have around Asia, by far.

London to Rome 17 Pounds Sterling

Paris to London 11 Pounds Sterling

However the point I was making is that Mercedes, BMW and VW concentrated on quality and value rather than trying to beat British car manufacturers on price. We all know the result.
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Old 5th Jun 2012, 05:38
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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I agree Canadian. There will always be both sides of the equation on this issue. There will always also be the a ratio of people who will always buy the cheapest gear without the education of where it's coming from, but thankfully there is also a robust movement on education and social responsibility as well.

An aside : Skiing: the GDP of Dubai is not what one would look at here since the emirate of Abu Dhabi greatly supports Dubai financially through government agencies. The overall percent of GDP of oil for the entire UAE is 40%.

Incidentally, I am not against more flights. I just believe that when you are doing business with countries that are heavily advantaged financially due to its "light social and democratic footprint" then one has to be intelligent about lending that country free unregulated acces so as not to also damage local markets while solely providing more choice for the consumer. Personally I like what Etihad has been doing through its tie-ups with other airlines, thereby benefitting all. Perhaps EK should take some lessons from its older brother.

Last edited by 555orange; 5th Jun 2012 at 05:49.
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Old 7th Jun 2012, 08:10
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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555,

An aside : Skiing: the GDP of Dubai is not what one would look at here since the emirate of Abu Dhabi greatly supports Dubai financially through government agencies. The overall percent of GDP of oil for the entire UAE is 40%.
Actually it is 31%, but so what? Dubai contributes 28% of UAE GDP with on 6% of it from oil.

At any rate, how does the make up of the economy factor into whether or not there is increased flight frequency?

Incidentally, I am not against more flights. I just believe that when you are doing business with countries that are heavily advantaged financially due to its "light social and democratic footprint" then one has to be intelligent about lending that country free unregulated acces so as not to also damage local markets while solely providing more choice for the consumer. Personally I like what Etihad has been doing through its tie-ups with other airlines, thereby benefitting all. Perhaps EK should take some lessons from its older brother.
So the issue is one of morality? Yet we are expanding our relationship with China where ever we can. They are not noted for their democratic or social rights. I don't believe "free unregulated access" is what is being discussed. Just additional frequencies.

Surely you don't believe Etihad is doing this to "benefit all"? It is about the quickest route to market penetration in an effort to catch up to the other players.

From the BBC;
The firm said that acquiring these stakes will help it to take on rivals such as Emirates and Qatar Airways.

"We're building a strong business model. And part of that business model is partnerships," James Hogan, chief executive of Etihad, was quoted as saying by the Associated Press.

"We do have two large competitors on our doorstep. And we will never match their aircraft order book."
Do you support the idea of the Government of Abu Dhabi buying into foreign airlines? An Aussie colleague mentioned that this could be a problem with the stake taken in Virgin Australia.

In case you forgot, EK has commercial agreements with other airlines such as WJ and JetBlue. The difference is they have not taken a financial stake. They did so some years ago with Sri Lankan though. The 43% stake was sold back to the government in 2010.

Would WJ not be a beneficiary of increased flights? If EK bought, say, 5% of WJ shares would that then be ok?

Last edited by Rather Be Skiing; 7th Jun 2012 at 08:12.
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Old 10th Jun 2012, 05:55
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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There's always a moral component skiing.

I don't pretend to have all the answers. However i find of your points and questions are semantical.

I suppose a lot of it is about companies and governments finding the right balance between each other when doing business when each have different controlling factors.
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Old 27th Jun 2012, 04:15
  #48 (permalink)  
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Air transport a globalized industry

disclaimer... I am a proud Canadian living and working in the Middle East who served in the military and flew for several charter companies before becoming a victim of the Canadian aviation industry.

As I see it, air transportation has become a globalized industry and like it or not its the same process that occurred in IT, Textiles, Manufacturing etc. Air Canada and others that still cling to the past are not able to compete with EK, Qatar, Etihad, Singapore, Cathay, Korean, Air China etc because of their cost structure. This said if you choose to pay career wages to people whos jobs require little education or training then you will not be able to compete with companies that don't.

Those that are complaining about this invasion of foreign carriers should check the "Made In" tag in the back of every piece of clothing they own, the computers they use daily, the tv they watch, the food they eat. If it doesn't say "Made in Canada" then their argument is somewhat two faced.

I wish it was different but Canada took that fork in the road with everyone else about 30 years ago and this is the new reality.
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Old 28th Jun 2012, 12:58
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Have you seen the living conditions that many of your "unskilled" workers are forced to endure to support your cost structure? I wouldn't let my dog live like that. If that's the new reality, then we're all headed for hell in a hand cart.

Last edited by J.O.; 28th Jun 2012 at 12:59.
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Old 28th Jun 2012, 18:22
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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We should just let everyone dump whatever they want to sell on our market... damn Canadian business it if it can give the consumers a better deal now.

Too many seats on that 380? Sell 'em here cheap. Not enough builder market for that timber? Dump it here. Cheap poultry? Bring back the 2 cent wings...

We can live the life until we end up some rural backwater nation with nothing left and form an alliance with Haiti...
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Old 3rd Jul 2012, 01:57
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Cheap carribean winter vacations, yaaayyyy!!
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Old 4th Jul 2012, 01:18
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Have you seen the living conditions of our unskilled workers where they are originally from? You would have them living in 21st Century building? Believe me they are way better off than if they'd stayed home and are still able to send money home every month to help their families there.
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