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Skiing: can you please give me an example of some of EKs domestic flights?
Thank you.
Thank you.
nolimitholdem said:
If you're going to compare apples to apples, at least all of the legacy carriers I can think of flying internationally also have a strong domestic presence in their home country. Emirates is a parasite, existing SOLELY to siphon traffic from everyone else's markets.
Maybe you could propose a domestic route structure for the UAE airlines. Have you even looked at a map?
Emirates does have an extensive network in the region; routes of 40 min to 3 hours.
Emirates does have an extensive network in the region; routes of 40 min to 3 hours.
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555, in order to 'share the pie' an airline is required to be part of one of the alliances? When was it determined that these alliances were sole servers of 'the pie'?
It is this idea that the legacy carriers have some 'right' to the travelling public and that the rest of the world must conform to their established structure I find hard to accept.
At any rate, despite the struggles of the west and especially Europe, much of the rest of the developing world has growing passenger numbers and the likes of AC and LH couldn't handle it all by themselves. Since Canada wants to engage more economically with some of these regions, increased transportation links are inevitable.
You know what, when it does happen, it won't kill AC contrary to the chicken littles out there. If AC goes the way of the Dodo, it will be mostly their own doing. Hopefully they get their s**t sorted out.
It is this idea that the legacy carriers have some 'right' to the travelling public and that the rest of the world must conform to their established structure I find hard to accept.
At any rate, despite the struggles of the west and especially Europe, much of the rest of the developing world has growing passenger numbers and the likes of AC and LH couldn't handle it all by themselves. Since Canada wants to engage more economically with some of these regions, increased transportation links are inevitable.
You know what, when it does happen, it won't kill AC contrary to the chicken littles out there. If AC goes the way of the Dodo, it will be mostly their own doing. Hopefully they get their s**t sorted out.
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Thanks Skiing.
... For helping me with my point.
So it seems EK doesn't have a domestic market at all. They are serving And benefitting themselves at the behest of their neighbors. And I'm curious why you conveniently left out India? Let's not forget S Africa and every other country in the region. God help you if the Indians alone decide they want their share back. Lol, I have seen the pax you have out of any NAmerican city. It's almost 100% Indian.
The point is there is not enough "domestic" UAE traffic to give MORE flights to EK. Again in reiteration, no one can say Canada is not sharing the market with you already. It was just determined that it's probably more fair to give the rights to some of these other counties.
Of course every airline has a certain percent of foreign traffic. Again - semantics.
You say AC has to get its "----" together. From where I stand i have more respect there than EK. And NO, I don't work there. I would defend them before any ME airline. They struggle because fortunately for the Canadians, labor law income taxes and human rights etc take a greater portion of the equation. But that's not new to any western country. You might be padding your bank account working over there, but from what I read, you are paying for it.
Tell me, where do you think EK would be if it didn't have oil in the region? If the Emiratis actually had to work for their money like everyone else?
... For helping me with my point.
So it seems EK doesn't have a domestic market at all. They are serving And benefitting themselves at the behest of their neighbors. And I'm curious why you conveniently left out India? Let's not forget S Africa and every other country in the region. God help you if the Indians alone decide they want their share back. Lol, I have seen the pax you have out of any NAmerican city. It's almost 100% Indian.
The point is there is not enough "domestic" UAE traffic to give MORE flights to EK. Again in reiteration, no one can say Canada is not sharing the market with you already. It was just determined that it's probably more fair to give the rights to some of these other counties.
Of course every airline has a certain percent of foreign traffic. Again - semantics.
You say AC has to get its "----" together. From where I stand i have more respect there than EK. And NO, I don't work there. I would defend them before any ME airline. They struggle because fortunately for the Canadians, labor law income taxes and human rights etc take a greater portion of the equation. But that's not new to any western country. You might be padding your bank account working over there, but from what I read, you are paying for it.
Tell me, where do you think EK would be if it didn't have oil in the region? If the Emiratis actually had to work for their money like everyone else?
Last edited by 555orange; 24th May 2012 at 14:11.
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And another spanner in your gears: you say you serve Qatar? And yet complain that EK isn't given more landing rights in Canada, yet Qatar airways did get Some of the extra landing rights you wanted? How come?
The alliances are just an example of how companies share and do business together.
The alliances are just an example of how companies share and do business together.
Last edited by 555orange; 24th May 2012 at 14:24.
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The alliances are an example of how crappy airlines eliminate the need for improvement through the elimination of competition, and also can control and manipulate the fares on certain routes that they control completely.
Check the fares on routes to Europe that AC/Lufthansa control exclusively vs routes that they compete with others on, on a site like expedia. No wonder they're terrified of EK.
Check the fares on routes to Europe that AC/Lufthansa control exclusively vs routes that they compete with others on, on a site like expedia. No wonder they're terrified of EK.
Last edited by GMC1500; 24th May 2012 at 23:32.
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555, you say
I was referring to their local regional routes as a loose comparison to a domestic market. Of course India is a significant component of EK's business. As is Africa. One wonders why AC is not more open to serving these emerging markets. Maybe that is a question you can answer for me?
It seems to me it is because they are restricted by their Alliance partners and not free to make independent business decisions.
Actually quite the opposite; I was paying a higher price in Canada. No, I am not just referring to taxes. I no longer worry about my job because of the health of the airline I work for. My family is happy. My kids are getting good education and we have the opportunity to see parts of the world that would not likely be possible from Canada. I enjoy my job overall; I like the airplane and route structure. No, it is not perfect but what situation is?
Truth is, oil accounts for less than 6% of Dubai's GDP and is decreasing. Believe what you want about EK but it wouldn't account for their ability to fill their a/c like they do. Like WJ, Ek has done a very good job of marketing themselves and they provide a good product that pax seem to enjoy.
At the same time, Canadian energy sector accounts for 6.8% of its GDP.
It still comes down to the same thing: protecting AC and trying to convince everyone that it is done in the best interest of all Canadians. I simply don't buy it. As I stated earlier; I think Rob Howard's presentation to the Senate Committee addressed it quite clearly.
So it seems EK doesn't have a domestic market at all. They are serving And benefitting themselves at the behest of their neighbors. And I'm curious why you conveniently left out India? Let's not forget S Africa and every other country in the region. God help you if the Indians alone decide they want their share back. Lol, I have seen the pax you have out of any NAmerican city. It's almost 100% Indian.
It seems to me it is because they are restricted by their Alliance partners and not free to make independent business decisions.
You might be padding your bank account working over there, but from what I read, you are paying for it.
Tell me, where do you think EK would be if it didn't have oil in the region? If the Emiratis actually had to work for their money like everyone else?
At the same time, Canadian energy sector accounts for 6.8% of its GDP.
It still comes down to the same thing: protecting AC and trying to convince everyone that it is done in the best interest of all Canadians. I simply don't buy it. As I stated earlier; I think Rob Howard's presentation to the Senate Committee addressed it quite clearly.
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Alliances are only a way competitors get together to be more competitive against other who are doing the same gmc. Partnerships are a good way to do more business, not less. Just like EY is doing with Seychelles, Air Berlin, and Virgin.
Skiing, any measure short of total free trade does not equal market protection. For most countries... (I say most because it's in some companies overall strategy not to partner) ... The balance lies somewhere in between. You have to be smart and not only open competition to the right people, but also in a balanced progressive way. Ie: not all at once. Think of it this way: your gonna have a race. You drive a Prius, and te other guy has a mustang. Your not really in a position to compete are you? Rob Howard's presentation fully and completely misses this point and is just stupid because of it. It actually does a disservice to the country. In the end, Canada's leaders and thankfully most people are smart enough to know it and that's why we are where we are.
Ps, I'm glad your happy over there. there's no denying its a decent job. No job is perfect and there are different specific issues everywhere. EK would be one of my first choices if I was looking.
Skiing, any measure short of total free trade does not equal market protection. For most countries... (I say most because it's in some companies overall strategy not to partner) ... The balance lies somewhere in between. You have to be smart and not only open competition to the right people, but also in a balanced progressive way. Ie: not all at once. Think of it this way: your gonna have a race. You drive a Prius, and te other guy has a mustang. Your not really in a position to compete are you? Rob Howard's presentation fully and completely misses this point and is just stupid because of it. It actually does a disservice to the country. In the end, Canada's leaders and thankfully most people are smart enough to know it and that's why we are where we are.
Ps, I'm glad your happy over there. there's no denying its a decent job. No job is perfect and there are different specific issues everywhere. EK would be one of my first choices if I was looking.
Last edited by 555orange; 26th May 2012 at 22:08.
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BA= One World..
As a Canadian working abroad, even when I am home I will drive to Bellingham or SEA to pick up a Zed fare to US. Taxes from Vancouver almost $80 a head more.. X family of 5.. well.. you see why I'd drive an hr to Bellingham and park FREE. 2.5 to SEA.. last such trip recently to Hawaii.. Sure AC has a nonstop.. but sh*t service and extra 400 in taxes? Not a chance.
As a Canadian working abroad, even when I am home I will drive to Bellingham or SEA to pick up a Zed fare to US. Taxes from Vancouver almost $80 a head more.. X family of 5.. well.. you see why I'd drive an hr to Bellingham and park FREE. 2.5 to SEA.. last such trip recently to Hawaii.. Sure AC has a nonstop.. but sh*t service and extra 400 in taxes? Not a chance.
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555,
True, but the flip side is also true: it doesn't have to be a totally closed market for protection measures to be in effect.
Also true, but if I show up to a race in a Prius it is not the fault of the Mustang driver I am at a disadvantage.
A phased in approach is a very good strategy as long as the time provided is used to upgrade the Prius. If not, the spectators don't get to enjoy a good race. Nor do the drivers.
Maybe Rob Howard's briefing did not address the issue completely. Total disregard, however, of the benefits of increased air transportation (not just EK/EY) to other sectors of the Canadian economy also misses the point.
If Canada's leaders are, in fact, smart they would be assisting AC and the rest of the Canadian industry to be more globally competitive. They would treat this industry as an economic asset instead of a cash cow to be milked to death. I think most recognize this to be true as well and that we shouldn't have to be where we are now.
Thanks for the well wishes. It is always good to not have to be looking for a job!
Skiing, any measure short of total free trade does not equal market protection.
Think of it this way: your gonna have a race. You drive a Prius, and te other guy has a mustang. Your not really in a position to compete are you?
A phased in approach is a very good strategy as long as the time provided is used to upgrade the Prius. If not, the spectators don't get to enjoy a good race. Nor do the drivers.
Maybe Rob Howard's briefing did not address the issue completely. Total disregard, however, of the benefits of increased air transportation (not just EK/EY) to other sectors of the Canadian economy also misses the point.
If Canada's leaders are, in fact, smart they would be assisting AC and the rest of the Canadian industry to be more globally competitive. They would treat this industry as an economic asset instead of a cash cow to be milked to death. I think most recognize this to be true as well and that we shouldn't have to be where we are now.
Thanks for the well wishes. It is always good to not have to be looking for a job!
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Skiing, are you kidding?
There is no flip side skiing as there is no "total market protection" in this case.
One of the comparative disadvantages financially to any company in Canada compared to ME to which I'm referring to would be civil rights. It's an advantage for the citizens, but costs the corporations financially a bit more. If you put a sweat shop in China against a factory in Canada trying to make shoes, of course it's not balanced. It's not competition. Strange that you don't see it that way.
Spectators? You got to be kidding right?
Ron Howard: Again, there is no "total disregard". Lots of Airlines coming to Canada including 2 major carriers from your very small country already.
Cash Cow? AC is is not a cash cow period... And certainly not for the govt. Maybe The shareholders? Guess what... AC is a public company. how about you?
Competition? ! There is more now that Canada decided to spread the ME traffic around by granting Qatar.
Clearly, you are missing a lot of facts here, as did Howard.
Do you have any real facts to base your arguments on... Maybe you should take Howard and go skiing instead. Oh wait: you can't. PS, I think your just sugar coating....
Heard your bonus rules will change as the govt wants to keep more of your bonus for themselves? Nice that they can just change stuff on you.
AAI... Good for you. You saved a buck. FYI: Another eg of COMPETITION to those who say there is none in Canada.
There is no flip side skiing as there is no "total market protection" in this case.
One of the comparative disadvantages financially to any company in Canada compared to ME to which I'm referring to would be civil rights. It's an advantage for the citizens, but costs the corporations financially a bit more. If you put a sweat shop in China against a factory in Canada trying to make shoes, of course it's not balanced. It's not competition. Strange that you don't see it that way.
Spectators? You got to be kidding right?
Ron Howard: Again, there is no "total disregard". Lots of Airlines coming to Canada including 2 major carriers from your very small country already.
Cash Cow? AC is is not a cash cow period... And certainly not for the govt. Maybe The shareholders? Guess what... AC is a public company. how about you?
Competition? ! There is more now that Canada decided to spread the ME traffic around by granting Qatar.
Clearly, you are missing a lot of facts here, as did Howard.
Do you have any real facts to base your arguments on... Maybe you should take Howard and go skiing instead. Oh wait: you can't. PS, I think your just sugar coating....
Heard your bonus rules will change as the govt wants to keep more of your bonus for themselves? Nice that they can just change stuff on you.
AAI... Good for you. You saved a buck. FYI: Another eg of COMPETITION to those who say there is none in Canada.
Last edited by 555orange; 28th May 2012 at 19:28.
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555, do you even read my posts before you go off?
Did I say there was? No.
Well, you started the analogy about car racing.
Again, if you took a moment to read what I posted, I said
. No, I am not publicly traded; my wife prefers privately held.
As many 'facts' as you have brought to the table. This is a debate mostly of theory and ideology. If it was clearly defined by irrefutable 'facts' there would not be a discussion.
I can go skiing, anytime. It isn't really very good, but I can go.
So is the wish to think I am lying about my life satisfaction just anger based because I don't agree with you?
There is no flip side skiing as there is no "total market protection" in this case.
Spectators? You got to be kidding right?
Cash Cow? AC is is not a cash cow period... And certainly not for the govt. Maybe The shareholders? Guess what... AC is a public company. how about you?
AC and the rest of the Canadian industry
Do you have any real facts to base your arguments on... Maybe you should take Howard and go skiing instead. Oh wait: you can't. PS, I think your just sugar coating....
Heard your bonus rules will change as the govt wants to keep more of your bonus for themselves? Nice that they can just change stuff on you.
Heard your bonus rules will change as the govt wants to keep more of your bonus for themselves? Nice that they can just change stuff on you.
I can go skiing, anytime. It isn't really very good, but I can go.
So is the wish to think I am lying about my life satisfaction just anger based because I don't agree with you?
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Just to note that it can go both ways. Next week I am flying IAD-YYZ-CDG in J class. TATL is on AC. Over $1500 cheaper than using UA IAD-CDG. So even within Star Alliance there can be some competition.
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Thanks Seenit all. There you go.
Thanks Chuck. Precisely. It was more fair to spread out the pie instead of give it all to EK. Skiing is sore about it and thinks its all market protection and ideology and theory. A conflict in itself. Lol. Now he's just taking an opposing positions everything with no substance as he argues from a position of weakness. Hence his response to AC being a public company, for eg. Regressing. So really it's not much of a debate. Arguing for the sake of arguing is no argument at all.
Anger has nothing to do with it Skiing. Are you sensitive on the topic? I just enjoy the debate. I know where I stand on it, and your entitled to yours too. You want emirates to have more flights to Canada right? And it's aaall about market protection... And the next day Qatar gets more rights. So... Right-... Next.
This debate is not on theory or ideology. But the fact that you believe so says everything.
Thanks Chuck. Precisely. It was more fair to spread out the pie instead of give it all to EK. Skiing is sore about it and thinks its all market protection and ideology and theory. A conflict in itself. Lol. Now he's just taking an opposing positions everything with no substance as he argues from a position of weakness. Hence his response to AC being a public company, for eg. Regressing. So really it's not much of a debate. Arguing for the sake of arguing is no argument at all.
Anger has nothing to do with it Skiing. Are you sensitive on the topic? I just enjoy the debate. I know where I stand on it, and your entitled to yours too. You want emirates to have more flights to Canada right? And it's aaall about market protection... And the next day Qatar gets more rights. So... Right-... Next.
This debate is not on theory or ideology. But the fact that you believe so says everything.
Last edited by 555orange; 29th May 2012 at 19:34.
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Seattle pretends it's like Vancouver...... but it's not.
I would never cross the border to fly out but then I fly staff. No idea how EK got into conversation.... or Prius.
I would never cross the border to fly out but then I fly staff. No idea how EK got into conversation.... or Prius.
Last edited by Rollingthunder; 29th May 2012 at 21:13.
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Originally Posted by 555orange
Thanks Seenit all. There you go.
Thanks Chuck. Precisely. It was more fair to spread out the pie instead of give it all to EK. Skiing is sore about it and thinks its all market protection and ideology and theory. A conflict in itself. Lol. Now he's just taking an opposing positions everything with no substance as he argues from a position of weakness. Hence his response to AC being a public company, for eg. Regressing. So really it's not much of a debate. Arguing for the sake of arguing is no argument at all.
Anger has nothing to do with it Skiing. Are you sensitive on the topic? I just enjoy the debate. I know where I stand on it, and your entitled to yours too. You want emirates to have more flights to Canada right? And it's aaall about market protection... And the next day Qatar gets more rights. So... Right-... Next.
This debate is not on theory or ideology. But the fact that you believe so says everything.
Thanks Chuck. Precisely. It was more fair to spread out the pie instead of give it all to EK. Skiing is sore about it and thinks its all market protection and ideology and theory. A conflict in itself. Lol. Now he's just taking an opposing positions everything with no substance as he argues from a position of weakness. Hence his response to AC being a public company, for eg. Regressing. So really it's not much of a debate. Arguing for the sake of arguing is no argument at all.
Anger has nothing to do with it Skiing. Are you sensitive on the topic? I just enjoy the debate. I know where I stand on it, and your entitled to yours too. You want emirates to have more flights to Canada right? And it's aaall about market protection... And the next day Qatar gets more rights. So... Right-... Next.
This debate is not on theory or ideology. But the fact that you believe so says everything.
Would I like to see more flights to Canada? Sure. So would Air France and Singapore. Maybe Westjet too since they benefit from onward connections.
So, 555, if this not about protecting AC but, in fact, about what is best for Canada/Canadians, perhaps you could tell me how more access would be harmful? Can you detail what sectors of the Canadian economy would be negatively impacted and to what extent? What would be the negative impact on individual Canadians?
Since the debate isn't theoretical, you obviously have irrefutable facts to support your side. I am looking forward to hearing them.
In the mean time, as you so generously have allowed, I will maintain my position on this.
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Originally Posted by Rollingthunder
Seattle pretends it's like Vancouver...... but it's not.
... No idea how EK got into conversation.... or Prius.
... No idea how EK got into conversation.... or Prius.
SEA is trying to capitalize on that greater freedom to attract airlines to fly there. It is marketing itself as a gateway for tourists to Canada, especially Whistler. EK is just the latest airline to go to SEA because they could not get any flights to YVR. Obviously, to some, that is good for Canada.
The Prius was 555's analogy for Air Canada vs a Mustang for EK. Which implied to me that denying more rights to EK was to protect a weaker AC. I guess I misunderstood the analogy because, apparently, Canada's policy position has nothing to do with protecting AC.
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In its most simplest sense, more choice is always good, but it's a diminishing return and often comes at the expense of something else. Just like dumping cheap Chinese stuff negatively affects local manufacturer. Its very convenient to look at it one dimensionally in terms of "choice" purely because it benefits you. *Its very ignorant. It's very simple and I'm always surprised when people just don't get it.*
Chuck, much of the traffic you want to access flies home westbound via Asia. That is just one eg of how the market is shared and would negatively impact.*
Gentlemen, in the end all players are granted access, there is no protection. It's just that within Canada, the powers decided that for now EK will only be granted through Toronto, and to apparently to SHARE the market further, Qatar was added to the market. Actually, I think EK screwed itself in this case by trying to force their hand with the Canadians. If it happens, I bet Qatar will fly direct Vancouver, not EK.*
The Americans are more desperate right now, and tend to have a lesser inclination to monitor a market while also allowing greater access. Hence what happened to them in Banking and Real Estate as opposed to Canada. In Canada you could never buy a home unless you had the income to support it. In the States, anyone was given a loan, because they falsely assumed the market would always go up. It was foolish and lead to where they are now.*
This is reality. This is Canada. We are open to your business, but we are responsible at the same time. Sorry if it doesnt suit you.*
Chuck, much of the traffic you want to access flies home westbound via Asia. That is just one eg of how the market is shared and would negatively impact.*
Gentlemen, in the end all players are granted access, there is no protection. It's just that within Canada, the powers decided that for now EK will only be granted through Toronto, and to apparently to SHARE the market further, Qatar was added to the market. Actually, I think EK screwed itself in this case by trying to force their hand with the Canadians. If it happens, I bet Qatar will fly direct Vancouver, not EK.*
The Americans are more desperate right now, and tend to have a lesser inclination to monitor a market while also allowing greater access. Hence what happened to them in Banking and Real Estate as opposed to Canada. In Canada you could never buy a home unless you had the income to support it. In the States, anyone was given a loan, because they falsely assumed the market would always go up. It was foolish and lead to where they are now.*
This is reality. This is Canada. We are open to your business, but we are responsible at the same time. Sorry if it doesnt suit you.*
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Just like dumping cheap Chinese stuff negatively affects local manufacturer. Its very convenient to look at it one dimensionally in terms of "choice" purely because it benefits you. *Its very ignorant. It's very simple and I'm always surprised when people just don't get it.*