Emirates vs. Air Canada
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Married a Canadian..
I get your point. Not all business was innocent before the ME showed up. SO?
Does that mean we should bend over and just let you and the ME with is current super cheap labor from the subcontinent, no tax, gov't subsidised businesses, walk into our house and eat our lunch?
What happened in the past is water under the bridge. What matters to Canada and Air France, and BAE, and Lufthansa etc etc etc, is the here and now.
Now the ME carriers interests are a threat to other countries carriers interests. Canada has tried to deal with this fairly by allowing the ME carriers to service the Canadians that want choice in DXB and AUH but as a destination, not a hub onwards to other destinations. Although admittedly, you serve that market already to a certian degree. But Canada wants to protect its share of the market to other destination as well. Daily service from YYZ for you is enough ...for now. Sorry you cant have it ALL.
What the UAE has effectively done now, is attract global attention to itself over this political nonsense with the base and now the security council seat. It reminds me of a spoiled bully who didn't get his way, and I think the rest of the world is going to see it that way too. It hasn't helped your case.
If you want to play at the table then bring your chips. Code share or join an alliance.
Lets put it into a context you might understand better...now that your married to a Canadian... How would you feel if you were at a party and some guy comes in and wants all the beer for himself? What would you do? Does the fact that you had one too many beers once in the past justify the other guy taking all the beers today? Hmmmm....
I get your point. Not all business was innocent before the ME showed up. SO?
Does that mean we should bend over and just let you and the ME with is current super cheap labor from the subcontinent, no tax, gov't subsidised businesses, walk into our house and eat our lunch?
What happened in the past is water under the bridge. What matters to Canada and Air France, and BAE, and Lufthansa etc etc etc, is the here and now.
Now the ME carriers interests are a threat to other countries carriers interests. Canada has tried to deal with this fairly by allowing the ME carriers to service the Canadians that want choice in DXB and AUH but as a destination, not a hub onwards to other destinations. Although admittedly, you serve that market already to a certian degree. But Canada wants to protect its share of the market to other destination as well. Daily service from YYZ for you is enough ...for now. Sorry you cant have it ALL.
What the UAE has effectively done now, is attract global attention to itself over this political nonsense with the base and now the security council seat. It reminds me of a spoiled bully who didn't get his way, and I think the rest of the world is going to see it that way too. It hasn't helped your case.
If you want to play at the table then bring your chips. Code share or join an alliance.
Lets put it into a context you might understand better...now that your married to a Canadian... How would you feel if you were at a party and some guy comes in and wants all the beer for himself? What would you do? Does the fact that you had one too many beers once in the past justify the other guy taking all the beers today? Hmmmm....
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I'd give them a week, maybe two to have a sit down and seriously think about the "spoiled brat" diplomacy they've used toward our Governmental over flights and their lobbying of the UN. (not to mention the Camp Mirage decision which I personally don't think is worth all the fuss, but that's me)
The more I think about the suggestion that we cancel their landing rights and ice the cake with denial of EK and EY overflight in Canadian Airspace, the more I like it.
A child can't simply take something it wants off the shelf in a supermarket simply because he wants it, unless it's paid for. This country (the UAE) doesn't understand the fact that the answer to any question/request is not always YES. Unless it's the other way round. Then they do get it. There are times when you have to say NO. Even to the spoiled brat. (Bear in mind, if you tell a spoiled brat NO, he's going to start bawling. He might even thrash around AND bawl in protest. You have to understand the mentality we're dealing with to better appreciate what me as well as others are saying.
Cancelling their landing rights and overflights, including their Military transits to the U.S. via Labrador, would be the slap on the wrist that's needed PLUS it would get one in for our Military boys and girls. Even though they (the UAE) might not get it.
Canada doesn't import enough Middle Eastern oil to worry about any oil sanction, should they even consider that move as an option.
We go a long way to accept culture and religion in this country and to a great degree give way to it to be more accomodating. Maybe this time, someone needs to give way to the way we do things in this country?
Does our government have the cahones? (don't think so)
Willie
The more I think about the suggestion that we cancel their landing rights and ice the cake with denial of EK and EY overflight in Canadian Airspace, the more I like it.
A child can't simply take something it wants off the shelf in a supermarket simply because he wants it, unless it's paid for. This country (the UAE) doesn't understand the fact that the answer to any question/request is not always YES. Unless it's the other way round. Then they do get it. There are times when you have to say NO. Even to the spoiled brat. (Bear in mind, if you tell a spoiled brat NO, he's going to start bawling. He might even thrash around AND bawl in protest. You have to understand the mentality we're dealing with to better appreciate what me as well as others are saying.
Cancelling their landing rights and overflights, including their Military transits to the U.S. via Labrador, would be the slap on the wrist that's needed PLUS it would get one in for our Military boys and girls. Even though they (the UAE) might not get it.
Canada doesn't import enough Middle Eastern oil to worry about any oil sanction, should they even consider that move as an option.
We go a long way to accept culture and religion in this country and to a great degree give way to it to be more accomodating. Maybe this time, someone needs to give way to the way we do things in this country?
Does our government have the cahones? (don't think so)
Willie
Last edited by Willie Everlearn; 15th Oct 2010 at 22:08.
More from the Globe and Mail
The dogfight over Emirates
BRENT JANG — TRANSPORTATION REPORTER
From Saturday's Globe and Mail
Published Friday, Oct. 15, 2010 6:07PM EDT
Last updated Friday, Oct. 15, 2010 6:34PM EDT
It’s Dubai versus Frankfurt in the battle of global hubs, and to the victor go the spoils of lucrative international air traffic.
Emirates Airline, which operates three round-trip flights a week between Toronto and Dubai, has been lobbying the Canadian government for much greater access to Canada. Emirates funnels global traffic through its Dubai hub. By contrast, Air Canada (AC.B-T3.440.020.58%) and its partner Deutsche Lufthansa AG fly between Toronto and Frankfurt, where Lufthansa collects connecting passengers.
Battle of the hubs
After Ottawa declined to grant greater access to Dubai-based Emirates and Abu Dhabi-based Etihad Airways, the United Arab Emirates decided last week to evict the Canadian Forces from Camp Mirage, a Persian Gulf base that serves as a crucial jump-off point to Afghanistan.
Air Canada argues that its connecting points at both Frankfurt and London’s Heathrow Airport would suffer if the UAE carriers grow aggressively in Canada.
As well, with Emirates seeking to add Vancouver-Dubai and Calgary-Dubai routes, Air Canada believes its flights between Western Canada and the Asia-Pacific region would be weakened since Emirates also serves China, Hong Kong, Japan and South Korea – important connecting points.
Emirates deploys the 489-seat Airbus A380 on the Toronto-Dubai route while Etihad operates the 374-seat Boeing 777 for its Toronto-Abu Dhabi service.
Emirates serves 15 destinations in the Middle East, 17 in Africa and 17 in the South Asian subcontinent, which are crucial destination markets for the airline’s Toronto-Dubai service. This map shows some of the key destinations where Emirates and Lufthansa go head-to-head from their respective hubs, as well as examples of where Emirates flies without direct Lufthansa competition.
POLITICS
The UAE’s eviction notice means the Canadian Forces must vacate Camp Mirage within the next three weeks. Emirates has been pushing Ottawa for more flights ever since it launched Toronto-Dubai service in October, 2007. Emirates argues that at a minimum, it needs daily service from Toronto. In an internal newsletter last year, the Air Canada Pilots Association noted the presence of small model planes on MPs’ desks – souvenirs from Emirates’ lobbying efforts on Parliament Hill. Air Canada and Transport Canada oppose the expansion strategy, saying there isn’t any seat shortage between Canada and the UAE.
THE WIDE GAP
Emirates alone wants up to 25 more round-trips a week over the long term, leaving a wide gap between the UAE and Ottawa. In August and September, the Canadian government offered to increase the frequency to one extra round-trip flight a week each for Emirates and Etihad, but it had to be service to a Canadian city other than Toronto. Ottawa also presented a separate offer to allow Emirates and Etihad to spread out their flights with smaller planes over more days, but the Canadian government would have restricted the capacity available to the existing level of roughly 2,600 seats each way weekly.
EMIRATES AIRLINE
Emirates and Lufthansa compete head-to-head in most instances in the Middle East and Africa, although Emirates has a more extensive network into India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. Emirates has been seeking to introduce daily flights to both Vancouver and Calgary, as well as lobbying to gradually boost its Toronto service to twice a day. “In carrying this connecting traffic, Emirates provides enhanced access between Canada and various regions of the world which are underserved or not served at all from Canada,” according to an Emirates’ report presented to Ottawa.
AIR CANADA/LUFTHANSA
Air Canada and its Star Alliance partner, Germany’s Lufthansa, both fly non-stop between Toronto and Frankfurt. Lufthansa and its European subsidiaries boast an extensive network from the Frankfurt hub, as well as from Munich and other European terminals. Connecting travellers make many of Air Canada’s flights viable, and consumers would find they have fewer Air Canada flights to choose from if Emirates were to obtain dozens of new takeoff and landing slots in Canada. Cities such as Calgary, Montreal and Ottawa stand to lose some non-stop Air Canada service if Emirates siphons international traffic.
The dogfight over Emirates
BRENT JANG — TRANSPORTATION REPORTER
From Saturday's Globe and Mail
Published Friday, Oct. 15, 2010 6:07PM EDT
Last updated Friday, Oct. 15, 2010 6:34PM EDT
It’s Dubai versus Frankfurt in the battle of global hubs, and to the victor go the spoils of lucrative international air traffic.
Emirates Airline, which operates three round-trip flights a week between Toronto and Dubai, has been lobbying the Canadian government for much greater access to Canada. Emirates funnels global traffic through its Dubai hub. By contrast, Air Canada (AC.B-T3.440.020.58%) and its partner Deutsche Lufthansa AG fly between Toronto and Frankfurt, where Lufthansa collects connecting passengers.
Battle of the hubs
After Ottawa declined to grant greater access to Dubai-based Emirates and Abu Dhabi-based Etihad Airways, the United Arab Emirates decided last week to evict the Canadian Forces from Camp Mirage, a Persian Gulf base that serves as a crucial jump-off point to Afghanistan.
Air Canada argues that its connecting points at both Frankfurt and London’s Heathrow Airport would suffer if the UAE carriers grow aggressively in Canada.
As well, with Emirates seeking to add Vancouver-Dubai and Calgary-Dubai routes, Air Canada believes its flights between Western Canada and the Asia-Pacific region would be weakened since Emirates also serves China, Hong Kong, Japan and South Korea – important connecting points.
Emirates deploys the 489-seat Airbus A380 on the Toronto-Dubai route while Etihad operates the 374-seat Boeing 777 for its Toronto-Abu Dhabi service.
Emirates serves 15 destinations in the Middle East, 17 in Africa and 17 in the South Asian subcontinent, which are crucial destination markets for the airline’s Toronto-Dubai service. This map shows some of the key destinations where Emirates and Lufthansa go head-to-head from their respective hubs, as well as examples of where Emirates flies without direct Lufthansa competition.
POLITICS
The UAE’s eviction notice means the Canadian Forces must vacate Camp Mirage within the next three weeks. Emirates has been pushing Ottawa for more flights ever since it launched Toronto-Dubai service in October, 2007. Emirates argues that at a minimum, it needs daily service from Toronto. In an internal newsletter last year, the Air Canada Pilots Association noted the presence of small model planes on MPs’ desks – souvenirs from Emirates’ lobbying efforts on Parliament Hill. Air Canada and Transport Canada oppose the expansion strategy, saying there isn’t any seat shortage between Canada and the UAE.
THE WIDE GAP
Emirates alone wants up to 25 more round-trips a week over the long term, leaving a wide gap between the UAE and Ottawa. In August and September, the Canadian government offered to increase the frequency to one extra round-trip flight a week each for Emirates and Etihad, but it had to be service to a Canadian city other than Toronto. Ottawa also presented a separate offer to allow Emirates and Etihad to spread out their flights with smaller planes over more days, but the Canadian government would have restricted the capacity available to the existing level of roughly 2,600 seats each way weekly.
EMIRATES AIRLINE
Emirates and Lufthansa compete head-to-head in most instances in the Middle East and Africa, although Emirates has a more extensive network into India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. Emirates has been seeking to introduce daily flights to both Vancouver and Calgary, as well as lobbying to gradually boost its Toronto service to twice a day. “In carrying this connecting traffic, Emirates provides enhanced access between Canada and various regions of the world which are underserved or not served at all from Canada,” according to an Emirates’ report presented to Ottawa.
AIR CANADA/LUFTHANSA
Air Canada and its Star Alliance partner, Germany’s Lufthansa, both fly non-stop between Toronto and Frankfurt. Lufthansa and its European subsidiaries boast an extensive network from the Frankfurt hub, as well as from Munich and other European terminals. Connecting travellers make many of Air Canada’s flights viable, and consumers would find they have fewer Air Canada flights to choose from if Emirates were to obtain dozens of new takeoff and landing slots in Canada. Cities such as Calgary, Montreal and Ottawa stand to lose some non-stop Air Canada service if Emirates siphons international traffic.
Last edited by a330pilotcanada; 19th Oct 2010 at 16:32. Reason: clarity
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This ought to put a new twist in someone's shorts.
from CTV news,
"A suspect in the high-profile killing of a Hamas commander at a Dubai hotel has been arrested in Canada, the city-state's police chief says.
Lt. Gen. Dahi Khalfan Tamim told several news organizations the arrest is being kept quiet by Canada and Dubai was told not to go public with the information.
Foreign Affairs did not immediately return a phone call seeking comment on the reports.
Canada's consul general in Dubai, Kris Panday, told The Associated Press he had no comment on the matter.
Tamim's allegations come a little more than a week after a diplomatic dust-up between Canada and the United Arab Emigrates resulted in Canada being booted from its secret military base in the region.
Last week, Tamim said that an unnamed Western country had arrested a key suspect in the assassination of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh. But he did not identify the country.
Al-Mabhouh was killed in January, when he was smothered in his room at the Al Bustan hotel.
Dubai police initially issued warrants for 11 suspects in connection with al-Mabhouh's killing, but later added 16 more suspects to their list. They released video surveillance images of all of the suspects, most of whom travelled on fraudulent British, Irish, Australian, German and French passports.
Investigators said it appeared that a professional hit squad had killed al-Mabhouh.
Days after al-Mabhouh's death, Tamim said it was likely that the Mossad was behind the assassination.
"Our investigators reveal that Mossad is involved in the murder of al-Mabhouh. It is 99 per cent, if not 100 per cent that Mossad is standing behind the murder," Tamim told The National, the state-owned newspaper in Dubai.
Israel did not confirm nor deny its involvement in the assassination.
But Britain, Australia and Ireland later expelled Israeli diplomats after concluding Israel was responsible for the forged passports from their countries.
In June, an alleged Israeli spy named Uri Brodsky was arrested in Warsaw on a European arrest warrant that was issued by a German court.
Two months later, Brodsky was granted bail and is allowed to travel as he pleases while judicial proceedings are moving ahead.
Brodsky is accused of espionage and of helping procure a fake German passport."
Let's see how the diplomacy deals with this 'interesting' development.
Willie
from CTV news,
"A suspect in the high-profile killing of a Hamas commander at a Dubai hotel has been arrested in Canada, the city-state's police chief says.
Lt. Gen. Dahi Khalfan Tamim told several news organizations the arrest is being kept quiet by Canada and Dubai was told not to go public with the information.
Foreign Affairs did not immediately return a phone call seeking comment on the reports.
Canada's consul general in Dubai, Kris Panday, told The Associated Press he had no comment on the matter.
Tamim's allegations come a little more than a week after a diplomatic dust-up between Canada and the United Arab Emigrates resulted in Canada being booted from its secret military base in the region.
Last week, Tamim said that an unnamed Western country had arrested a key suspect in the assassination of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh. But he did not identify the country.
Al-Mabhouh was killed in January, when he was smothered in his room at the Al Bustan hotel.
Dubai police initially issued warrants for 11 suspects in connection with al-Mabhouh's killing, but later added 16 more suspects to their list. They released video surveillance images of all of the suspects, most of whom travelled on fraudulent British, Irish, Australian, German and French passports.
Investigators said it appeared that a professional hit squad had killed al-Mabhouh.
Days after al-Mabhouh's death, Tamim said it was likely that the Mossad was behind the assassination.
"Our investigators reveal that Mossad is involved in the murder of al-Mabhouh. It is 99 per cent, if not 100 per cent that Mossad is standing behind the murder," Tamim told The National, the state-owned newspaper in Dubai.
Israel did not confirm nor deny its involvement in the assassination.
But Britain, Australia and Ireland later expelled Israeli diplomats after concluding Israel was responsible for the forged passports from their countries.
In June, an alleged Israeli spy named Uri Brodsky was arrested in Warsaw on a European arrest warrant that was issued by a German court.
Two months later, Brodsky was granted bail and is allowed to travel as he pleases while judicial proceedings are moving ahead.
Brodsky is accused of espionage and of helping procure a fake German passport."
Let's see how the diplomacy deals with this 'interesting' development.
Willie
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I have no idea if this story is true, but there is one thing I do know. Every country, without exception, has skeletons in their closet. The UAE is a country that probably has more of them than most, and also stands to lose a lot more than Canada does if they become public knowledge.
The Emirates seems to have declared some sort of war on Canada over these landing slots. It simply isn't rational, which is another plank in the argument they are getting desperate.
Edit: Maybe in lieu of increased capacity to Canada the government can ship a bunch of Toronto phone books to the Emirates. I understand you can hit someone really hard with it and it won't leave any marks.
UAE: Wife-Beating OK, Just Don't Leave Any Marks - CBS News
The Emirates seems to have declared some sort of war on Canada over these landing slots. It simply isn't rational, which is another plank in the argument they are getting desperate.
Edit: Maybe in lieu of increased capacity to Canada the government can ship a bunch of Toronto phone books to the Emirates. I understand you can hit someone really hard with it and it won't leave any marks.
(AP) The UAE's highest judicial body says a man can beat his wife and young children as long as the beating leaves no physical marks.
Last edited by engfireleft; 20th Oct 2010 at 18:00.
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At the risk of repeating myself, none of this will come as any suprise if one has spent time in this part of the globe, same old same old. The question we should be asking in Canada is why would we even give a single landing slot to them or allow this "culture" to come to our country? Since the closure of our base they have nothing to offer our nation that is of any value to Canada.
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Hmmmm, perhaps because those 'normal' Canadians (those who don't work for Air Canada or who don't have hidden agendas) deserve a better choice in carriers/destinations and QUALITY OF SERVICE!!
Think about it, not all Canadians give a toss about the survival of AC.
Also don't under estimate the level of trade between Canada and the UAE, and the fact that over 100,000 Canadians live and work here. The current flights have load factors well over 90% (even on the 500 seat A380) - figures AC could only dream about........ so how can anyone say that demand isn't sufficient for extra services?
Indeed the UAE may be acting up like a spoilt child at present, but AC and Transport Canada are acting just as poorly and are treating the fare paying public like morons........... Non-protectionist my arse! How can AC et al cry foul at Mid East governments supporting local Airlines well, when they themselves are attempting the self same thing?? Pot and Kettle?
Food for thought perhaps?
Think about it, not all Canadians give a toss about the survival of AC.
Also don't under estimate the level of trade between Canada and the UAE, and the fact that over 100,000 Canadians live and work here. The current flights have load factors well over 90% (even on the 500 seat A380) - figures AC could only dream about........ so how can anyone say that demand isn't sufficient for extra services?
Indeed the UAE may be acting up like a spoilt child at present, but AC and Transport Canada are acting just as poorly and are treating the fare paying public like morons........... Non-protectionist my arse! How can AC et al cry foul at Mid East governments supporting local Airlines well, when they themselves are attempting the self same thing?? Pot and Kettle?
Food for thought perhaps?
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Emirates vs Air Canada
Does anybody really want to fly to Europe through Dubai. I for one do not. Direct flights to Amsterdam, Frankfurt and Heathrow from Calgary and others from Vancouver and Toronto make travel much easier than if one were to transit DUBAI.
Just my two cents worth. I don't work for Air Canada or any affiliate but I support them in this argument.
Just my two cents worth. I don't work for Air Canada or any affiliate but I support them in this argument.
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Oblaaspop, the number of ex pats working/living in any country can hardly be used as the yardstick as to the number of landing slots to be awarded to any particular nation, if this logic prevailed then Britain and the USA would have all the slots at every airport in Canada. The fact is the UAE just cant function without ex pats, few of whoom would chose to live there if it wernt for the money, now that they have closed the base they have no poker chips to play with, I hope we kick them out of our airspace untill they learn to behave like adults and not spoilt kids in a sandbox.{Pun intended} Im sure that some of the ex pats fear reprisals against them if we do boot them out, they all knew {As I did} before they went there that there is precious little justice in their petty little world, so get used to it, its the norm in the Middle East.
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It really isn't much of a contest to compare AC cabin service with EK.
In fact, there isn't a single north american carrier that I can think of that could even come close. I also think we're clever enough to figure out why that is. But I have to say, in recent years, travelling to and fro on AC, I've found their cabin crew did a great job. As did the PSAs on check in.
That certainly wasn't the case in the past.
For me, it's about the Scotch and in that category I'd say AC and EK are pretty much equal.
Cancel their landing rights and don't allow anything with an A6 registration into our airspace.
...where's the Glen?
Willie
In fact, there isn't a single north american carrier that I can think of that could even come close. I also think we're clever enough to figure out why that is. But I have to say, in recent years, travelling to and fro on AC, I've found their cabin crew did a great job. As did the PSAs on check in.
That certainly wasn't the case in the past.
For me, it's about the Scotch and in that category I'd say AC and EK are pretty much equal.
Cancel their landing rights and don't allow anything with an A6 registration into our airspace.
...where's the Glen?
Willie
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Economic Costs
Six7driver,
The whole argument of towards the economic benefits that EK/Emirates would bring to Canada was rendered moot the moment their government decided to negotiate additional access to the Canadian market through blackmail (closure of a military base) and inane decisions (not allowing a high level member of the Canadian Government into their airspace). They must realize that this type of negotiating is stupid, stupid, stupid. If not, then they surely must realize that their will be economic costs by negotiating this way (if they didn't before, they do now). PM Harper has shown considerable restraint in dealing with this issue so EK should consider itself lucky. For many Canadians, we would have applied much harsher penalties to the Emirates government and its' carrier for their appalling behavior.
Now onto the economic benefits that EK would bring. I can't argue the benefits which you posted as I can read the numbers. What I also need to see in order to be convinced is what the net benefits are to Canadians. Are the numbers you posted 'gross benefits' before the costs (which may be considerable) are taken into account? I don't know, but I suspect that since these are early days in this debate we will start to see some additional surveys done in this area. Remember, numbers can be constructed to read however you want them to read. Reality is an entirely different matter.
The whole argument of towards the economic benefits that EK/Emirates would bring to Canada was rendered moot the moment their government decided to negotiate additional access to the Canadian market through blackmail (closure of a military base) and inane decisions (not allowing a high level member of the Canadian Government into their airspace). They must realize that this type of negotiating is stupid, stupid, stupid. If not, then they surely must realize that their will be economic costs by negotiating this way (if they didn't before, they do now). PM Harper has shown considerable restraint in dealing with this issue so EK should consider itself lucky. For many Canadians, we would have applied much harsher penalties to the Emirates government and its' carrier for their appalling behavior.
Now onto the economic benefits that EK would bring. I can't argue the benefits which you posted as I can read the numbers. What I also need to see in order to be convinced is what the net benefits are to Canadians. Are the numbers you posted 'gross benefits' before the costs (which may be considerable) are taken into account? I don't know, but I suspect that since these are early days in this debate we will start to see some additional surveys done in this area. Remember, numbers can be constructed to read however you want them to read. Reality is an entirely different matter.
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Canadian Gov’t says the UAE may have 2600 seats per week each way in/out of Canada
That’s more than 135,000 seats per year.
Canadian Gov’t says there are 27,000 Canadians living in the UAE.
Plenty more seats than Emirates may need. Why that would mean that each and every Canadian could go home to Canada, and return, fractionally more than 2.5 times per year.
We all know Emirates, as an airline, doesn’t even give its pilots their contractually stated leave of 42 days per year. They only give 30, and only a maximum of 21 in a row.
By reducing the leave allocation, and limiting consecutive days, they force their employees to travel an average of at least one other time per year, at their own cost… most use: Emirates Airline. This is an example of how Emirates Airline treats its own professional pilots. One can’t fart in this city without the ‘company’ getting a piece of the action.
Paul Griffiths, chief executive officer at Dubai Airports Co., fired back Wednesday at critics in Canada and Europe, where Air France is leading a group of European and U.S. carriers to voice concerns about expansion-minded Emirates receiving low-interest aircraft financing and other subsidies.“The only thing Dubai is guilty of is providing an environment that actually supports aviation,” Mr. Griffiths said in a statement. “Most governments around the world treat aviation as a pariah, choking its growth with costly, misdirected regulation, instead of adopting policies that recognize its considerable socio-economic benefits and support its sustainable growth. They then compound the problem with parasitic forms of taxation that usually flow straight out of the sector.”
Please read Mr Griffith’s statement carefully and consider the meaning behind his statement.
It doesn’t require a PhD in Reasoning to comprehend that the many “misdirected regulation[s]” are simply viewed as an impediment to Emirates getting what it wants, like a spoiled child not getting the lolly it desires. Or as it is put above: considerable socio-economic benefits
That’s more than 135,000 seats per year.
Canadian Gov’t says there are 27,000 Canadians living in the UAE.
Plenty more seats than Emirates may need. Why that would mean that each and every Canadian could go home to Canada, and return, fractionally more than 2.5 times per year.
We all know Emirates, as an airline, doesn’t even give its pilots their contractually stated leave of 42 days per year. They only give 30, and only a maximum of 21 in a row.
By reducing the leave allocation, and limiting consecutive days, they force their employees to travel an average of at least one other time per year, at their own cost… most use: Emirates Airline. This is an example of how Emirates Airline treats its own professional pilots. One can’t fart in this city without the ‘company’ getting a piece of the action.
Paul Griffiths, chief executive officer at Dubai Airports Co., fired back Wednesday at critics in Canada and Europe, where Air France is leading a group of European and U.S. carriers to voice concerns about expansion-minded Emirates receiving low-interest aircraft financing and other subsidies.“The only thing Dubai is guilty of is providing an environment that actually supports aviation,” Mr. Griffiths said in a statement. “Most governments around the world treat aviation as a pariah, choking its growth with costly, misdirected regulation, instead of adopting policies that recognize its considerable socio-economic benefits and support its sustainable growth. They then compound the problem with parasitic forms of taxation that usually flow straight out of the sector.”
Please read Mr Griffith’s statement carefully and consider the meaning behind his statement.
It doesn’t require a PhD in Reasoning to comprehend that the many “misdirected regulation[s]” are simply viewed as an impediment to Emirates getting what it wants, like a spoiled child not getting the lolly it desires. Or as it is put above: considerable socio-economic benefits
Last edited by M-rat; 1st Nov 2010 at 12:55.
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“Most governments around the world treat aviation as a pariah, choking its growth with costly, misdirected regulation, instead of adopting policies that recognize its considerable socio-economic benefits and support its sustainable growth. They then compound the problem with parasitic forms of taxation that usually flow straight out of the sector.”
Either way, Emirates and the Dubai government think they should have carte blanche around the world, and that is simply not going to happen. They might in fact have to rethink all those airplanes they have on order.
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It's all about protecting money losing goliath that's Air Canada. Even if AC cut workers salaries in half they would still be losing money. Why don't you hear Qantas or Air New Zeland crying out like AC? EK flies to all major Australian and NZ cities, picking up pax to Dubai and then transferring them wherever they need to go. I think EK even flies between AUS and NZ collecting pax.
The fact is Dubai has a great location between Africa and Asia. Yeah, and that's only about half the worlds population they have access to. AC can only dream about those possibilities. They are able to provide pax from Asia and Africa with worldwide service on a daily basis, often with minimal wait in Dubai. Most of the African and poorer Asian countries will never have airlines big enough (or safe enough) to satisfy the needs for air travel to their citizens. AC can't compete on a global level, not as a private held airline and especially not as a government airline.
Think back to the days of Canadian Airlines and Air Canada. AC can't handle competition, they know they have an inferior product. But in using dirty tactics, bullying, government protection.... AC has an executive mba.
HM, sounds much like Emirates. Seems to me Air Canada has met a dirtier adversary then themself, and they just can't handle it.
The fact is Dubai has a great location between Africa and Asia. Yeah, and that's only about half the worlds population they have access to. AC can only dream about those possibilities. They are able to provide pax from Asia and Africa with worldwide service on a daily basis, often with minimal wait in Dubai. Most of the African and poorer Asian countries will never have airlines big enough (or safe enough) to satisfy the needs for air travel to their citizens. AC can't compete on a global level, not as a private held airline and especially not as a government airline.
Think back to the days of Canadian Airlines and Air Canada. AC can't handle competition, they know they have an inferior product. But in using dirty tactics, bullying, government protection.... AC has an executive mba.
HM, sounds much like Emirates. Seems to me Air Canada has met a dirtier adversary then themself, and they just can't handle it.
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They then compound the problem with parasitic forms of taxation that usually flow straight out of the sector.”
Air Canada would probably like these "parasitic forms of taxation" lessened in order to compete better against the US carriers.
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It's all about protecting money losing goliath that's Air Canada. Even if AC cut workers salaries in half they would still be losing money. Why don't you hear Qantas or Air New Zeland crying out like AC? EK flies to all major Australian and NZ cities, picking up pax to Dubai and then transferring them wherever they need to go. I think EK even flies between AUS and NZ collecting pax.
The fact is Dubai has a great location between Africa and Asia. Yeah, and that's only about half the worlds population they have access to. AC can only dream about those possibilities. They are able to provide pax from Asia and Africa with worldwide service on a daily basis, often with minimal wait in Dubai. Most of the African and poorer Asian countries will never have airlines big enough (or safe enough) to satisfy the needs for air travel to their citizens. AC can't compete on a global level, not as a private held airline and especially not as a government airline.
Think back to the days of Canadian Airlines and Air Canada. AC can't handle competition, they know they have an inferior product. But in using dirty tactics, bullying, government protection.... AC has an executive mba.
HM, sounds much like Emirates. Seems to me Air Canada has met a dirtier adversary then themself, and they just can't handle it.
The fact is Dubai has a great location between Africa and Asia. Yeah, and that's only about half the worlds population they have access to. AC can only dream about those possibilities. They are able to provide pax from Asia and Africa with worldwide service on a daily basis, often with minimal wait in Dubai. Most of the African and poorer Asian countries will never have airlines big enough (or safe enough) to satisfy the needs for air travel to their citizens. AC can't compete on a global level, not as a private held airline and especially not as a government airline.
Think back to the days of Canadian Airlines and Air Canada. AC can't handle competition, they know they have an inferior product. But in using dirty tactics, bullying, government protection.... AC has an executive mba.
HM, sounds much like Emirates. Seems to me Air Canada has met a dirtier adversary then themself, and they just can't handle it.
Singling out Air Canada for such behavior is a bit ridiculous especially when you consider how Dubai went off the deep end of reason just because their own airline was denied more access into a foreign country. I mean, let's keep things in perspective here.
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"It's all about protecting money losing goliath that's Air Canada. Even if AC cut workers salaries in half they would still be losing money. Why don't you hear Qantas or Air New Zeland crying out like AC? EK flies to all major Australian and NZ cities, picking up pax to Dubai and then transferring them wherever they need to go. I think EK even flies between AUS and NZ collecting pax. "
Mixed messages on the Middle East
The Gulf carriers want greater access to the Australian and Canadian markets. Are they being blocked or encouraged?
Emirates and other Middle East carriers have asked Australia and Canada for more capacity, but the response from each has been dramatically different.
Australia has allowed Emirates and Etihad to operate 60 weekly non-stops into Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth combined, plus another 31 weekly one-stop flights. By contrast, each carrier enjoys only three weekly flights to Canada - all to Toronto. One market has been generous, the other closely guarded.
National carriers in both countries have criticised what they claim are the aggressive expansion plans of Emirates. The latest volley in this squabble is from Alan Joyce, chief executive of Qantas, who urges Australia to show more restraint in handing out capacity to Middle East carriers. "The capacity that these guys have been hammering on the door [about] for some time is available and they're not utilising [it]," Joyce told national media. Even now, he complains, Emirates is routing some non-stop services through Bangkok because of inadequate demand for the direct Dubai flights.
Hubs become stubs
Calin Rovinescu, Air Canada chief executive, is more vocal, warning Canadian airports that Emirates' designs on Canada would turn their "hubs into stubs". The issue provoked lively debate between Rovinescu and leaders of the Middle East giants at June's IATA annual meeting in Berlin. Also, during the recent Routes Forum in Vancouver, Emirates senior vice-president for cargo Ram Menem joined the debate, calling "restrictive countries, such as Canada, pennywise and pound foolish".
With its current Airbus A380 loads to and from Toronto exceeding 90%, he says Emirates "would cherish the opportunity to operate more passenger flights into Canada". In an obvious attack on Canada, Menem added "some countries tend to protect the national carrier and miss out on greater opportunities".
Transport Canada will not publically enter a debate with any airline, but says the current bilateral grants sufficient rights to serve all origin and destination traffic between Canada and the United Arab Emirates. "UAE carriers transport a large number of passengers to third country markets," it notes. "This limits the number of seats available for people who want to travel between Canada and the UAE." Canada's regulator is in no hurry to grant more capacity to Emirates and Etihad.
A closer look at the Australian and Canadian markets offers clues as to why the two governments have such different attitudes. Emirates does not compete against any Australian carrier between Australia and Asia. It would make no sense for anyone flying between Australia and Asia to use Dubai as a connecting hub. In the first place, connecting is not necessary because of the number of direct Asia-Australia flights. And even if they did connect, Dubai is thousands of kilometres out of the way.
The real competition between Australian and UAE carriers is about Europe. Qantas only flies to London and Frankfurt in Europe, so passengers between Australia and any other European city must connect somewhere. Dubai and Abu Dhabi are just as well suited for this as London or Frankfurt.
The main threat UAE carriers pose for Qantas is in siphoning off Australia-Europe connecting traffic. Qantas carries enough O&D traffic between Australia and London and Frankfurt to allow both routes to survive even if every connecting passenger switched to Emirates or Etihad.
The plan by Qantas unit Jetstar to launch Singapore connections on some thinner routes into Europe and the Middle East does not change these realities. It is still a contest over who will carry the connecting traffic and where it will connect.
Canada's situation is both similar and different. As in the case of Australia-Asia, Emirates and Etihad are unlikely to divert Canada-Europe traffic because Dubai and Abu Dhabi are unnecessary connections too far out of the way.
The difference is that Air Canada operates 30 year-round routes between eight Canadian cities and 13 in Europe - even more in high season. Some, Air Canada says, are too thin to survive solely on O&D traffic. They are supported by traffic that continues beyond Europe - traffic that the Middle Eastern carriers might seek.
Route viability
Air Canada's Rovinescu cites Ottawa-Frankfurt as an example. "When you look at who travels on this flight, only 15% are people going between Ottawa and Frankfurt. The other 85% are connecting in Frankfurt to fly somewhere else. If another carrier siphons off even just the 15% headed for the Middle East, then the route is no longer viable."
So Canadian transport officials fear that if they grant the UAE more capacity than its airlines need for O&D traffic, those carriers would divert connecting traffic from Canada-Europe. That would jeopardise the future of some of those thinner routes. This is a different issue than favouring one hub over another when traffic must connect somewhere. That is the situation in Australia. In Canada, it is a question of preserving routes. New long-range aircraft like Boeing's 787 may change these dynamics, but for now terms like "liberal" or "protectionist" seem inadequate to explain the different national interests at play.
The intensity of these interests is revealed by the recent threat from the UAE to end Canadian use of a military base near Dubai unless Canada grants more rights to Emirates and Etihad. Canadian troops use the base as a staging area for operations in Afghanistan. UAE's move threatens to escalate rather than resolve this dispute.
Mixed messages on the Middle East
The Gulf carriers want greater access to the Australian and Canadian markets. Are they being blocked or encouraged?
Emirates and other Middle East carriers have asked Australia and Canada for more capacity, but the response from each has been dramatically different.
Australia has allowed Emirates and Etihad to operate 60 weekly non-stops into Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth combined, plus another 31 weekly one-stop flights. By contrast, each carrier enjoys only three weekly flights to Canada - all to Toronto. One market has been generous, the other closely guarded.
National carriers in both countries have criticised what they claim are the aggressive expansion plans of Emirates. The latest volley in this squabble is from Alan Joyce, chief executive of Qantas, who urges Australia to show more restraint in handing out capacity to Middle East carriers. "The capacity that these guys have been hammering on the door [about] for some time is available and they're not utilising [it]," Joyce told national media. Even now, he complains, Emirates is routing some non-stop services through Bangkok because of inadequate demand for the direct Dubai flights.
Hubs become stubs
Calin Rovinescu, Air Canada chief executive, is more vocal, warning Canadian airports that Emirates' designs on Canada would turn their "hubs into stubs". The issue provoked lively debate between Rovinescu and leaders of the Middle East giants at June's IATA annual meeting in Berlin. Also, during the recent Routes Forum in Vancouver, Emirates senior vice-president for cargo Ram Menem joined the debate, calling "restrictive countries, such as Canada, pennywise and pound foolish".
With its current Airbus A380 loads to and from Toronto exceeding 90%, he says Emirates "would cherish the opportunity to operate more passenger flights into Canada". In an obvious attack on Canada, Menem added "some countries tend to protect the national carrier and miss out on greater opportunities".
Transport Canada will not publically enter a debate with any airline, but says the current bilateral grants sufficient rights to serve all origin and destination traffic between Canada and the United Arab Emirates. "UAE carriers transport a large number of passengers to third country markets," it notes. "This limits the number of seats available for people who want to travel between Canada and the UAE." Canada's regulator is in no hurry to grant more capacity to Emirates and Etihad.
A closer look at the Australian and Canadian markets offers clues as to why the two governments have such different attitudes. Emirates does not compete against any Australian carrier between Australia and Asia. It would make no sense for anyone flying between Australia and Asia to use Dubai as a connecting hub. In the first place, connecting is not necessary because of the number of direct Asia-Australia flights. And even if they did connect, Dubai is thousands of kilometres out of the way.
The real competition between Australian and UAE carriers is about Europe. Qantas only flies to London and Frankfurt in Europe, so passengers between Australia and any other European city must connect somewhere. Dubai and Abu Dhabi are just as well suited for this as London or Frankfurt.
The main threat UAE carriers pose for Qantas is in siphoning off Australia-Europe connecting traffic. Qantas carries enough O&D traffic between Australia and London and Frankfurt to allow both routes to survive even if every connecting passenger switched to Emirates or Etihad.
The plan by Qantas unit Jetstar to launch Singapore connections on some thinner routes into Europe and the Middle East does not change these realities. It is still a contest over who will carry the connecting traffic and where it will connect.
Canada's situation is both similar and different. As in the case of Australia-Asia, Emirates and Etihad are unlikely to divert Canada-Europe traffic because Dubai and Abu Dhabi are unnecessary connections too far out of the way.
The difference is that Air Canada operates 30 year-round routes between eight Canadian cities and 13 in Europe - even more in high season. Some, Air Canada says, are too thin to survive solely on O&D traffic. They are supported by traffic that continues beyond Europe - traffic that the Middle Eastern carriers might seek.
Route viability
Air Canada's Rovinescu cites Ottawa-Frankfurt as an example. "When you look at who travels on this flight, only 15% are people going between Ottawa and Frankfurt. The other 85% are connecting in Frankfurt to fly somewhere else. If another carrier siphons off even just the 15% headed for the Middle East, then the route is no longer viable."
So Canadian transport officials fear that if they grant the UAE more capacity than its airlines need for O&D traffic, those carriers would divert connecting traffic from Canada-Europe. That would jeopardise the future of some of those thinner routes. This is a different issue than favouring one hub over another when traffic must connect somewhere. That is the situation in Australia. In Canada, it is a question of preserving routes. New long-range aircraft like Boeing's 787 may change these dynamics, but for now terms like "liberal" or "protectionist" seem inadequate to explain the different national interests at play.
The intensity of these interests is revealed by the recent threat from the UAE to end Canadian use of a military base near Dubai unless Canada grants more rights to Emirates and Etihad. Canadian troops use the base as a staging area for operations in Afghanistan. UAE's move threatens to escalate rather than resolve this dispute.
Good Evening J.O.
It appears to be a somewhat dated article from Airline Business
Airlines
Subscribe you are in: Home Airlines News Article
DATE: 01/11/10
SOURCE: Airline Business
Mixed messages on the Middle East
By David Knibb
Or just hit the mixed messages on his posting etc
It appears to be a somewhat dated article from Airline Business
Airlines
Subscribe you are in: Home Airlines News Article
DATE: 01/11/10
SOURCE: Airline Business
Mixed messages on the Middle East
By David Knibb
Or just hit the mixed messages on his posting etc
Last edited by a330pilotcanada; 2nd Nov 2010 at 02:24. Reason: Clarity
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"Why don't you hear Qantas or Air New Zeland crying out like AC? EK flies to all major Australian and NZ cities, picking up pax to Dubai and then transferring them wherever they need to go. I think EK even flies between AUS and NZ collecting pax......."
Yes they do.............. Because we in Austalia and NZ have spinless governments in power who turn a blind eye to what the UAE are doing. A significant part of Emirates business is dumping capacity on the Tasman Sea between Australia and New Zealand. Their convienient disregard for air service agreements and obligations is in part due to the comforting knowledge that the Australian and NZ public will backlash against any government that stands in the way of the cheapest ticket.
Canada is to be held in high regard for correctly looking at the long term benifit for Canadians and not bowing to pressure from the UAE.
Good on you. I love Canada.
Yes they do.............. Because we in Austalia and NZ have spinless governments in power who turn a blind eye to what the UAE are doing. A significant part of Emirates business is dumping capacity on the Tasman Sea between Australia and New Zealand. Their convienient disregard for air service agreements and obligations is in part due to the comforting knowledge that the Australian and NZ public will backlash against any government that stands in the way of the cheapest ticket.
Canada is to be held in high regard for correctly looking at the long term benifit for Canadians and not bowing to pressure from the UAE.
Good on you. I love Canada.
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flippersview, you say: "Their convienient disregard for air service agreements and obligations"
Are you aware that about 8 years ago the Australian and NZ governments granted 5th freedom rights to EK because they didn't see it as a threat? Incidentally there are 7 other Airlines that also enjoy 5th freedom rights on the Trans-Tasman!
EK is just doing what its entitled to do.
You also mention that EK is 'dumping' capacity on the trans Tasman route. For starters, EK doesn't have spare capacity to 'dump'. The airline has an AVERAGE seat load factor of 82% (figures ANZ and QF could only dream of achieving). And before you say anything about 'cheap tickets', a quick Google search for ticket prices for next week will reveal an EK round trip ticket from SYD-AKL-SYD is only $8 cheaper than ANZ and over $100 MORE expensive than LAN.
Perhaps folks in NZ or Aus would prefer to fly on a nice new A380 with great service as opposed to a clapped out B737 or A320 with sh1t service.
Get your facts straight BEFORE posting as it may save you from looking foolish later on!
Are you aware that about 8 years ago the Australian and NZ governments granted 5th freedom rights to EK because they didn't see it as a threat? Incidentally there are 7 other Airlines that also enjoy 5th freedom rights on the Trans-Tasman!
EK is just doing what its entitled to do.
You also mention that EK is 'dumping' capacity on the trans Tasman route. For starters, EK doesn't have spare capacity to 'dump'. The airline has an AVERAGE seat load factor of 82% (figures ANZ and QF could only dream of achieving). And before you say anything about 'cheap tickets', a quick Google search for ticket prices for next week will reveal an EK round trip ticket from SYD-AKL-SYD is only $8 cheaper than ANZ and over $100 MORE expensive than LAN.
Perhaps folks in NZ or Aus would prefer to fly on a nice new A380 with great service as opposed to a clapped out B737 or A320 with sh1t service.
Get your facts straight BEFORE posting as it may save you from looking foolish later on!