Flying in Quebec - Don't speak French
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Quote: “You get your instructions from ATC & you do it!” Just like the Trident crew did! Just like the Yugoslavian aircraft’s crew did! Both in controlled airspace! Result – CRASH! Somebody either does not understand the concept of situational awareness and how it can help to avoid crashes or else they do understand it but are prepared to compromise safety for political expediency.
Interesting article below:
"ICAO New Language Proficiency Requirements: A Safety Priority For SEPLA
Between 1976 and 2000, more than 1,100 passengers and crew lost their lives in accidents in which investigators determined that language had played a contributory role. Moreover, numerous incidents involving language issues, including a number of runway incursions, are reported annually.
Concern over the role of language in airline accidents turned into action in 1998 when the ICAO Assembly assigned high priority to efforts to strengthen provisions concerning language requirements. Thus, in March 2003 ICAO amended Annexes 1, 6, 10 and 11 which contained the new language proficiency requirements. From 5th March 2008, a new ICAO proficiency standard for the use of English in aviation will become applicable to enhance safety. The emphasis is on the ability of pilots and air traffic controllers, both native and non-native English speakers, to comprehend and communicate effectively to a common standard.
The emphasis is firmly on speaking and listening abilities, and correct use of ICAO standard phraseology. ICAO standardised phraseology shall be used in all situations for which it has been specified. Only when standardised phraseology cannot serve an intended transmission, plain language shall be used. Moreover, the emphasis is on clarity, timely response and accuracy of ATC communication. Six levels of linguistic proficiency have been defined, with a minimum requirement to meet the ICAO Level 4 (operational). All pilots and controllers will be required to demonstrate proper adherence to ICAO international communication procedures. But the real emphasis is on comprehension and the ability to deal with non-standard situations. Provision is made for periodic retesting for those who cannot demonstrate Level 6 proficiency.
Article 33 of the Chicago Convention makes the international recognition of a flight crew license conditional on full compliance with all relevant ICAO Standards including language proficiency;........"
Interesting article below:
"ICAO New Language Proficiency Requirements: A Safety Priority For SEPLA
Between 1976 and 2000, more than 1,100 passengers and crew lost their lives in accidents in which investigators determined that language had played a contributory role. Moreover, numerous incidents involving language issues, including a number of runway incursions, are reported annually.
Concern over the role of language in airline accidents turned into action in 1998 when the ICAO Assembly assigned high priority to efforts to strengthen provisions concerning language requirements. Thus, in March 2003 ICAO amended Annexes 1, 6, 10 and 11 which contained the new language proficiency requirements. From 5th March 2008, a new ICAO proficiency standard for the use of English in aviation will become applicable to enhance safety. The emphasis is on the ability of pilots and air traffic controllers, both native and non-native English speakers, to comprehend and communicate effectively to a common standard.
The emphasis is firmly on speaking and listening abilities, and correct use of ICAO standard phraseology. ICAO standardised phraseology shall be used in all situations for which it has been specified. Only when standardised phraseology cannot serve an intended transmission, plain language shall be used. Moreover, the emphasis is on clarity, timely response and accuracy of ATC communication. Six levels of linguistic proficiency have been defined, with a minimum requirement to meet the ICAO Level 4 (operational). All pilots and controllers will be required to demonstrate proper adherence to ICAO international communication procedures. But the real emphasis is on comprehension and the ability to deal with non-standard situations. Provision is made for periodic retesting for those who cannot demonstrate Level 6 proficiency.
Article 33 of the Chicago Convention makes the international recognition of a flight crew license conditional on full compliance with all relevant ICAO Standards including language proficiency;........"
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Quote: “You get your instructions from ATC & you do it!” Just like the Trident crew did! Just like the Yugoslavian aircraft’s crew did! Both in controlled airspace! Result – CRASH! Somebody either does not understand the concept of situational awareness and how it can help to avoid crashes or else they do understand it but are prepared to compromise safety for political expediency.
On the controller screen, you have dots. Keep em away from each other & all will be good.
I don't know what went wrong in that situation, but that is an unlikely scenario here in Quebec. Probably their controller was asleep?
Can you honestly tell me since this crash in 1976, has there ever been a big problem in Quebec, France, Switzerland or any other french speaking ATC?
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Taking away the ability of pilots to cross check ATC's work is less safe than having other pilots cross check the work. There is absolutely no argument to that. Has Montreal Center caused an accident yet? No. Is it possible or perhaps even likely that if there were an accident that the language issue could be to blame? Definitely!
I find it humorous that we have bilingual people coming on here saying it's not an issue, or it's not unsafe. For you it isn't, for others it most certainly can be an issue.
Have you never had an instance where your hearing and understanding another aircrafts clearance has allowed you to do something to increase the safety margin? It happens almost every time I go to work. That same safety net is taken away when flying into YUL or YOW when people are speaking french.
I find it humorous that we have bilingual people coming on here saying it's not an issue, or it's not unsafe. For you it isn't, for others it most certainly can be an issue.
Have you never had an instance where your hearing and understanding another aircrafts clearance has allowed you to do something to increase the safety margin? It happens almost every time I go to work. That same safety net is taken away when flying into YUL or YOW when people are speaking french.
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On the controller screen, you have dots. Keep em away from each other & all will be good.
Been on holiday F2Bill, so sorry for the delay in replying to your post which displays a complete and utter lack of a sense of humor.
I went to a french emerssion school. I thank my parents everyday for that!
Let's see you have called other folks on this forum ignorant, not very smart ( remember that's Immersion) and narrow minded. I suggest you have a long hard look in the mirror because you are displaying many of the traits that you call others!
Oh and the Habs suck
Last edited by saudipc-9; 5th Mar 2008 at 02:14.
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Flaps2billion
No, you are right. You shouldn't compare Yugoslavian ATC (Croation/Serbian/Albanian etc etc I guess it should be now) with Canadian ATC. They use radar and separate aircraft by 5 miles whereas Canadian ATC is still entrenched in procedural service (until ADS is up and about I concede) and pass verbal estimates. I accept this is down to the nature of the country but the ATC here compares with India, Russia and Africa in some places. In addition, the CAATS system is obsolete already in comparison with other ATC systems already in use around the world. Let's not go blowing our own trumpet because we provide a service in a second language at one of 7 ACCs.
No, you are right. You shouldn't compare Yugoslavian ATC (Croation/Serbian/Albanian etc etc I guess it should be now) with Canadian ATC. They use radar and separate aircraft by 5 miles whereas Canadian ATC is still entrenched in procedural service (until ADS is up and about I concede) and pass verbal estimates. I accept this is down to the nature of the country but the ATC here compares with India, Russia and Africa in some places. In addition, the CAATS system is obsolete already in comparison with other ATC systems already in use around the world. Let's not go blowing our own trumpet because we provide a service in a second language at one of 7 ACCs.
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Well that's French Immersion school so your parents might wish to get their money back!
Go to school for a long time to come up with that?
Oh and the Habs suck
+One of the most successfull sports teams in history
+24 stanley cups
+last team to bring cup back home to Canada!
+hosted some of hockey's greatest players
+outperformed all of the other Canadian teams put combined!
Today.....
+In stanley cup contention
+large pool of bright upcoming young prospects
+Bright future
+Carey Price!
good going there buddy......I hope your not a leafs fan, because that would really funny & lame!
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F2Bill,
Hit a nerve did I? Good, from what I read you need to be put in your place. Why don't you add a little to your profile so that we can all see what your back ground is besides hiding behind a "typo" error which is your excuse for insulting others.
Have a nice day
Hit a nerve did I? Good, from what I read you need to be put in your place. Why don't you add a little to your profile so that we can all see what your back ground is besides hiding behind a "typo" error which is your excuse for insulting others.
Have a nice day
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Bigotry
I challenge anyone to tell accurately where all or most aircraft are around them in real time. whether ATC speaks Chinese, Arabic, French or English.
Bigotry is what is shown clearly in many posts and is rather sickening to read. Carrier, stop flying, use your car.
Bigotry is what is shown clearly in many posts and is rather sickening to read. Carrier, stop flying, use your car.
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I honestly don't think there's a problem with people showing intolerance to a practice which has been shown to be a factor affecting flight safety. If somebody is driving on the wrong side of the road for example, should I accept their desire to endanger other life - I don't think so.
I think a good pilot listens to the RT and builds an 'air picture' in their head. Sure, some don't think outside their own flight deck/cockpit but that's never going to change. Mixed languages doesn't help that practice.
Everybody is entitled to an opinion. Telling Carrier not to fly is a little harsh though.
I think a good pilot listens to the RT and builds an 'air picture' in their head. Sure, some don't think outside their own flight deck/cockpit but that's never going to change. Mixed languages doesn't help that practice.
Everybody is entitled to an opinion. Telling Carrier not to fly is a little harsh though.
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I think a good pilot listens to the RT and builds an 'air picture' in their head. Sure, some don't think outside their own flight deck/cockpit but that's never going to change. Mixed languages doesn't help that practice.
)It's quite amusing (and sad) that once anything gets mentioned regarding language a number of folks start blaring the horns and tooting the trumpets for a rally to the cause of protecting the language. Common sense and reason get lost on what is a simple and fair point of flight safety. A point I might add that be it big or small still adds up to a safer environment for all concerned.
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Carrier's comment in post 40, where he refers to the Quebec "language police" and its treatment of an Irish pub, reminds me of a story which claims that the Quebec authorities will have a go at "easier" targets (for example, insisting that department store "Eaton's" changed to "Eaton") but will not flex its muscles when it comes to multinationals (leaving McDonald's, for example, alone). If this is true it's hypocritical.
Don't get me wrong. I love Montreal and have always found French speakers invariably patient as I struggle in my poor French.
Quebec, though, can be so difficult to fathom. Why, for example, do roads in the small town of Hudson have "Stop" signs and not the usual "Arret"?
P.S. Haven't visited in a while. Has Windsor station in Montreal been renamed?
Don't get me wrong. I love Montreal and have always found French speakers invariably patient as I struggle in my poor French.
Quebec, though, can be so difficult to fathom. Why, for example, do roads in the small town of Hudson have "Stop" signs and not the usual "Arret"?
P.S. Haven't visited in a while. Has Windsor station in Montreal been renamed?
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P.S. Haven't visited in a while. Has Windsor station in Montreal been renamed?
As you can tell, I am something of a railway enthusiast in addition to planes. Planes, trains and automobiles, actually, should be my motto. I think buildings with the name "station" in them, should actually have trains stopping there.
Incidentally that line is now used exclusively for commuter trains. No more intercity trains, those are all located at Central Station a few blocks away.
Beech
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Thanks. I did mean the commuter station with services going west to Rigaud. Last I heard, a few years ago, it was still called Gare Windsor. I asked the question because I did not know what had happened since. I remember Lucien L'Allier as a metro stop. One less Anglophone name, I suppose...
Quebec, though, can be so difficult to fathom. Why, for example, do roads in the small town of Hudson have "Stop" signs and not the usual "Arret"?
Who said governments were stupid!
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How did the Habs get involved with this!?!? Man did this spin out of control....hope the poor lad who asked the original question isn't put off by Quebec or Canada for that matter.
To get back to the original post....yes Quebec and or Canada is a great place to learn how to fly and if you choose to do it in Quebec then you will be accomodated at all levels in the language of your choice,French or English.
Hope this helps and go Habs go!!
Cheers,
RWTY
To get back to the original post....yes Quebec and or Canada is a great place to learn how to fly and if you choose to do it in Quebec then you will be accomodated at all levels in the language of your choice,French or English.
Hope this helps and go Habs go!!
Cheers,
RWTY
Last edited by rwethereyet; 14th Apr 2008 at 09:45. Reason: none...
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As I remember, this thread was about learning to fly in the Montreal area for an English speaking student. You will be able to learn to fly in our area in your native language without any problems as English and French are used in official pilot/controller communications.
I don't want to comment on some "politically" motivated postings but to say that ignorance is at the basis of racism.
As for the Zagreb accident that did cost the lives of too many people, their ATC system was ultimately responsable for those deaths. The language issue was anecdoctical as during the last few seconds of the flight, the controller stopped the use of English with the Yougoslavian crew to warn them of the danger in his mother tongue, which wasn't the same as the pilots. If I remember well, he was using Croate when the pilots were Albanese, but I could be mistaken about the language used.
And finally, for all those who fall for statistics, how many accidents were not caused by languages? Some are talking about the concept that the use of the same language in pilot/controller communication helps the pilots maintaining the "air picture" but numerous studies have proven that this is not the case, and that's why Canada decided, back in 1976 or so, to use both French and English in certain areas. A while back, as I was attending a workshop where pilots and controllers were discussing this exact issue, the morning paper had a story of a B737 that flatened a Metroliner at the LAX airport. While the controller cleared the Metroliner to position on the active, he then, just a few seconds later, cleared the B737 to land on that same runway. Both flights used English, so did the controller, and lives were lost. And for those who are saying that it is more dangerous at small airports were there are more unilingual pilots, don't forget that not everyone has a radio, so you might not be aware of everyone using the airport anyway...
Hope that sheds a new light on the issue. As for the original question, again, don't be scared to fly in our region, nowadays we even have Chinese student pilots who come to St-Hubert airport, in the Montreal area, to learn how to fly in an English speaking environment...
I don't want to comment on some "politically" motivated postings but to say that ignorance is at the basis of racism.
As for the Zagreb accident that did cost the lives of too many people, their ATC system was ultimately responsable for those deaths. The language issue was anecdoctical as during the last few seconds of the flight, the controller stopped the use of English with the Yougoslavian crew to warn them of the danger in his mother tongue, which wasn't the same as the pilots. If I remember well, he was using Croate when the pilots were Albanese, but I could be mistaken about the language used.
And finally, for all those who fall for statistics, how many accidents were not caused by languages? Some are talking about the concept that the use of the same language in pilot/controller communication helps the pilots maintaining the "air picture" but numerous studies have proven that this is not the case, and that's why Canada decided, back in 1976 or so, to use both French and English in certain areas. A while back, as I was attending a workshop where pilots and controllers were discussing this exact issue, the morning paper had a story of a B737 that flatened a Metroliner at the LAX airport. While the controller cleared the Metroliner to position on the active, he then, just a few seconds later, cleared the B737 to land on that same runway. Both flights used English, so did the controller, and lives were lost. And for those who are saying that it is more dangerous at small airports were there are more unilingual pilots, don't forget that not everyone has a radio, so you might not be aware of everyone using the airport anyway...
Hope that sheds a new light on the issue. As for the original question, again, don't be scared to fly in our region, nowadays we even have Chinese student pilots who come to St-Hubert airport, in the Montreal area, to learn how to fly in an English speaking environment...
Last edited by drapo; 22nd Apr 2008 at 15:29.
