Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Canada
Reload this Page >

The “Original Air Canada” Pilots lose again.

Canada The great white north. A BIG country with few people and LOTS of aviation.

The “Original Air Canada” Pilots lose again.

Old 26th Feb 2006, 19:41
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: toronto
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Bruce lee

I have been reading your posts for a very long time, you seem to be a very intelligent person.

Why don't you start your day tomorow by thinking you can make a difference

you work for the most powerful employer in the country...!!!
trek1982 is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2006, 22:20
  #62 (permalink)  
brucelee
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Huh?
Ok Doc. But if it doesn't work, I'm not paying you.
 
Old 26th Feb 2006, 22:28
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: East end.
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Man you guys all have it so hard...

Keep crying - the lot of you - it suits you in your fancy outfits and cushy seats.

What a bunch of crap. I remember that the takeover could have gone either way and was almost the other way around. I remember both airlines on the edge of going under years before the merger. Really I don't give a **** about your seniority because it has nothing to do with me, but it makes me sick to hear people with some of the best jobs in our country complain like little girls.

"I know a guy he had to do a tour on the RJ"
"I won't be retirng in the top 10%"
"You shouldn't even have a job"
"You;I;You;I;You;I;You;I" Keep pointing fingers girls...
altiplano is offline  
Old 27th Feb 2006, 00:00
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Post-Pit and Lovin' It.
Posts: 863
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by brucelee
nolimit.
I'ts the young thirtysomething guys that stand more to lose. Everything you say is opinion only and that's fine, you're entitled. Thanx for coming, have a nice day.
Which is EXACTLY my point: for the most part, the most vocal OAC dissidents are the young Turks who have seen their career progression seriously impeded. To which I say: how can you consider yourself to have "lost" that which you were never, ever promised? I think this is why you will always lose in the court of public opinion, apart from the legal battles lost...

But you are correct, this goes into the realm of opinion and philosophical thoughts re: selfishness and greed.
nolimitholdem is offline  
Old 27th Feb 2006, 00:29
  #65 (permalink)  
brucelee
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
nolimit.
I can't believe I'm still involved in this circus. I guess I will state again that it's difficult to understand unless you have been affected. So let me try just one more time. When I was hired a few short years ago, I was told captain on the bus within five years. That was just before we merged. It wasn't a promise. It wasn't a guarantee. It was merely a realistic look into the SHORT-TERM as to what I could expect from my new employer. World economics, management, terrorism, oil prices etc. all would play a part in that progress, no doubt. But the single most decisive factor which has impeded my advancement has been the merger. What do you see wrong with a thirtysomething year old airbus captain? In fact, not only did I not achieve that, I was forced onto a much smaller airplane. Even worse, yes there is even worse, is the fact that it will now take me well into my fifties before I can hold such a position. Not bad, you might say, you'll still do fine. Yes, but I could do some math for you and you would be shocked at the money I will have lost between now and then. Is the seniority thing starting to open your eyes yet? No? well, I could go on, but frankly boys and girls, I'm tiring of repeating myself. Yep, maybe I should just shut the fu*k up and accept things the way they are. After all, we're all just whyners. Nevermind money, does anybody believe in integridy anymore?
Oh and by the way, selfeshness and greed? Again I take you back in history when AC saved the many jobs that were about to be very uncertain at Canadian. Were those people ever promissed anything? Did we owe them anything? Please. Anywhere else in the world this situation would have been handled very differently. Canada, land of God given jobs. Time to go back to my real life now, it's been fun kids. See ya.

Last edited by brucelee; 27th Feb 2006 at 01:33.
 
Old 27th Feb 2006, 04:57
  #66 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts

Brucelee,

Do you understand this graph? I know you dont want to acknowledge it but the facts are indisputable. More Canadian Pilots lost seniority than OAC pilots and yet you still attempt to sell us all on the damage thats been done to you.

Whatever your employer told you when hired is irrelevant. You are the one who is vilifying the Canadian Pilots. They did not choose to be here. Your Air Canada Board of Directors bought another company and business conditions changed because a merger occurred.

If 9/11 hadnt happened thousands of US airline pilots wouldnt be out of work today. Business conditions changed.

If SARs hadnt happened Air Canada may not have went into CCAA. But business conditions changed and it went into CCAA.

You might as well blame the whole world for your problems becuase you really cant blame the merger, SARs, 9/11 or anything else. The world changes constantly and business conditions change constantly.

Get used to it.
I hate cats is offline  
Old 27th Feb 2006, 14:46
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by I hate cats
Do you understand this graph?
Your graph is just one biased way of measuring something we all see differently. You've drawn it by comparing pilot age at each company. So you're older for your seniority and the seats you occupy, we're all sorry for you. It doesn't make your graph a smoking gun to support your case.

To take the point to a ridiculous extreme- what if we merged with a group of 59-yr-old Dash 8 captains? They could draw the above graph with a greater amplitude. Big deal. What really counts are the jobs you bring to the picnic, and you guys brought about 500 sandwiches and 1200 appetites.
wellfedCanuck is offline  
Old 28th Feb 2006, 00:52
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Calgary
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"Those at AC who think you have the job of jobs you are wrong. Those at WJ who think the same you are wrong. Ask yourself only one thing. Am I happy?
Point clear?"
I'll make my point as clear as I can to you. I AM HAPPY. When I decided to live in this country, there was one thing that was very clear to me. If I lived in Britain, I would whant to fly for BA. If I lived in Germany, I would want to fly for Lufthansa. In Canada, AC is what I have chosen. No regrets. Despite CCAA, a changed contract, reduction in wages etc. I am still in good shape and that's exactly the point. Even after all that degrading stuff, I'm still happy. A benefit of organized labour and working for a major I guess. As far as WJ goes, my view is that many egos were inflated there after 9/11 when flag carriers took a hit and the low cost phenomenon literaly took off. Pilots there became millionaires because their stocks whent balistic. Newspapers couldn't say enough good stuff about them. But just as we all knew, with time AC would survive and return to profitability. Others would have smoldered in the flames of CCAA. Looking ahead, there's much to be positive about in both companies. But at the end of the day, the benefits of the major carrier are unmatched. Period. For those who chose not to go to AC, I understand and admire your decision. For those who failed to get to AC, don't waist my time with your bitterness.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by brucelee : 13th September 2005 at 01:24.
Reading through this thread it seems a lot has changed.
royalterrace is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2006, 17:37
  #69 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by AC_A320_Capt
You've drawn it by comparing pilot age at each company. So you're older for your seniority and the seats you occupy, we're all sorry for you. It doesn't make your graph a smoking gun to support your case.
There are no references to age/demographics. If there are, show me.

The graph compares Pre merger seniority # - read bottom in comparison with Keller Award seniority (the list OAC doesnt like because it wants more seniority) and graphs the difference as years gained/lost - read left side.

Since both unions have to show up at the arbitration(s) with a certified pre-merger seniority list the Pre merger seniority # cannot be disputed. All parties (AC-ALPA-ACPA) accept the data when they enter arbitration.

The years gained/lost compares the difference between the two pre-merger lists and the Keller list. The Keller list is also published and known to all parties.

How can the data in the graph be manipulated?

Who won the seniority battle here and who lost?

With the exception of two small groups of Canadian Pilots around seniority 50 and seniority numbers 1000 every other pilot in the Canadian Pilot Group lost seniority.

Ask yourself why the Original Air Canada Group wont present any data to support their arguements.

Answer: Because they have no data to support their arguements. Thats why they lose at the CIRB and the courts consistently.
I hate cats is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2006, 00:46
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Pardon me, yes, directly your graph compares DOH, ergo indirectly it compares age. Yes, you were merged with pilots who were hired after your date. However, that's only one yardstick and the one that conveniently advances your case.

Using the other yardstick, those younger pilots brought higher-ranking jobs to the merger. For example, at the time of merger, fifteen years of service at Air Canada comfortably held A320C and pilots with as little as 5 years of service were holding that seat.

At CAIL, 15 years generally held right seat of the A320 with the junior YZ B767F hired November 2, 1987. Your junior YZ B737 Captain was hired March 31, 1980. Our junior DC9 Captain was hired January 20, 1997, less than 4 YOS. Same job, demographically two decades apart.

To merge DOH or LOS would give the CAIL pilots a significant leg up at the expense of the OAC pilots. Pre-merger, all parties agreed that the goal was to preserve pre-merger career expectations. Even with a less-than-YOS award, over the past three years CAIL pilots have realized career advancement. Many of the aformentioned CAIL F/Os have taken A320 left seats while OAC pilots have stagnated or slid backwards.

So, to answer your question- it appears that your side "won the seniority battle" at our expense.
wellfedCanuck is offline  
Old 3rd Mar 2006, 00:02
  #71 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by AC_A320_Capt
Even with a less-than-YOS award, over the past three years CAIL pilots have realized career advancement. Many of the aformentioned CAIL F/Os have taken A320 left seats while OAC pilots have stagnated or slid backwards.
So, to answer your question- it appears that your side "won the seniority battle" at our expense.


If your hypothesis was correct it would be reflected in the above chart. But your statement is not correct.

Premerger, the both groups could expect 70% of their respective pilot groups to retire in the top 10% of the seniority list.

If the Keller list gave advantage to the Canadian Pilot group you would expect more than 70% of Canadian Pilots to retire in the top 10% of the combined list. The seniority advantage with the Keller List is with the Original Air Canada pilots because more OAC Pilots make it to the high paying positions available in the top 10% of the seniority list more often. As the chart illustrates OAC pilots make it to the top 10% of the list 6% more often, and the Canadian Pilots make it to the top of the list 14% less often.

The OAC pilots want to have a seniority advantage today with a ratio list, and they want to have the ability to capture the retirements of the older Canadian Pilot group also. That is exactly what has happened as the chart shows.

The challenge the OAC pilots face is to get anyone to believe they have been disadvantaged by the merger when the evidence clearly doesnt support this view.
I hate cats is offline  
Old 3rd Mar 2006, 01:09
  #72 (permalink)  
brucelee
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Ryalterrace.
You whent through all that trouble but you obviously "missed" my threads #58 on page three or how about #4 on page one. There are many others. My references to my job satisfaction are unmatched on this forum. I'll spare the good folks on this forum the boring stuff and since this is between you and me, I invite you to have a quik look at them and then tell me if your thread on this page was really worth it.
Oh and hey, congradulations on your new contract. A little bird told me that you guys are no longer relying on the profit sharing thing since there is'nt much profit to share anymore, and are on good old fashioned salaries like the rest of us. If this is true, my predections are all coming true. Now I understand why there's so much secrecy. Still though, $160 grand a year for capt of a 737 is'nt so bad. But that pretty much illiminates any future millionaires and paid-off mortgages I guess. Happy trails, partner.

Last edited by brucelee; 3rd Mar 2006 at 01:34.
 
Old 3rd Mar 2006, 01:49
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It's not a hypothesis, it's fact. Even a cursory glance at the last few equipment bids illustrates this effect.


{Okay, list deleted due to libel chill. Supporting evidence available via email to those in possession of the secret-decoder ring.}



Take a look at the junior blue pilot in this seat, Paul Arends. Pre-merger (EAB35) he held A320F at 70% and couldn't touch B767F, let alone a left seat anywhere in the CAIL system. However, the junior red pilot above, Orrett Williams, was already a DC-9 C at 87%. Five years later, Williams has moved very little while Arends has magically gained enough seniority to be an A320C. A320F to A320C at the stroke of an arbitrator's pen......not a bad little gain, eh?

This is not an isolated occurrence. Similar comparisons can be made all up and down the Keller list. In effect, that award was the ultimate "buy now, pay later" deal for the blue side. Sure, you may suffer slightly near the tail end of your career, but most of your side will reap the benefits for 15 or more years before paying the piper.

Personally, I'd rather be where I was pre-merger than hang my hat on the last 3 years of my career. With age-60 being revisited and the uncertainties of personal health, nobody on the red side can ever count on collecting your "top of the list" uplift.

Last edited by wellfedCanuck; 3rd Mar 2006 at 13:48.
wellfedCanuck is offline  
Old 3rd Mar 2006, 02:45
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Calgary
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
brucelee
No trouble at all. You were sounding pretty stressed in this thread. Lots of poor me , I got screwed and will never recover what I lost. I remembered you pointing out how happy you were awhile back. Just thought I'd remind you how good you have it.
royalterrace is offline  
Old 3rd Mar 2006, 04:12
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: YYZ
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
ever thought that some of those people wouldn't want their personal info posted on a public forum?

sepia is offline  
Old 3rd Mar 2006, 13:40
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
That info is hardly "personal".
wellfedCanuck is offline  
Old 3rd Mar 2006, 14:03
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Calgary
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
AC A320 CAPT
I've never felt salaries were a big secret either. As a matter of fact I have gone into detail in the past in answering questions on the internet from those who were curious.
Unfortunately , it always leads to a ****e storm from other sides that refuse to believe the numbers. I don't want to go down that road so lets just say the contract is very lucrative and should give you AC guys good ammunition to get your salaries back up when you go to renegotiate.
royalterrace is offline  
Old 3rd Mar 2006, 14:52
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thanks, Terrace, but it must have been someone else asking for it.
wellfedCanuck is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.