Emergency scenario
 

This is a scenario that occasionally comes up on flightsim-forums, but now from a different perspective.

You are the senior flight attendant on board and halfway during the flight you visit the cockpit. You find both pilots unconscious in their seats and you are unable to revive them.
What will you do?

Would you at some point ask if there is a pilot among the passengers?

I doubt I would ask a passenger if they knew how to fly a plane tbh because who knows what weirdos may say yes, and then of course there is the terrorist threat.

Firstly, I would probably be getting another crew member to bring me oxygen etc and help me administer 1st aid to the incapacitated pilots. If the aircraft was flying itself and was stable, that would be my first priority.

Then it would be to contact the ground as quickly as possible to alert them as to what has gone on and to get someone to talk us down. Most modern aircraft can now land themselves anyway.

I assume that the sequence runs as follows...

Incredibly pretty stewardess exits flight deck in tears. What to do? Who can help? Announcement to passengers "Can anybody fly this plane?" followed by tense silence. Small nervous voice in row 60 says "I'm an expert on this aircraft in Microsoft Flight Simulator". Young man enters flight deck and grapples with controls. Incredibly pretty stewardess wipes sweat from his brow. "Let's get this baby on the ground". Successful landing against the odds. Applause in the cabin. Kiss from Incredibly pretty stewardess. World media at foot of aircraft steps as hero disembarks last. "It was the least I could do with my skills". Grateful nation. Sex with Incredibly pretty stewardess. Cover of Time magazine...

It's been done already somewhere.

I would hope that the purser would be asking if there were any doctors on board, and checking the pax list for deadheading flight crew, rather than resorting to such Hollywood-style questions over the PA.

http://www.moviepilot.de/files/image...r2_article.jpg

Guess I picked the wrong day to quit drinking.... :ooh:

Barry Cryer, Ben Elton, Rowan Atkinson, Ian Hislop, John Cleese et al have serious competition! :p

ezy319

now what if the doctor was a nutter or even a terrorist. now if there was a terrorist on board, he'd probably think hey its my lucky day.:ugh:

Indeed they do and will do so when they run out of fuel........Helios is an example

If only those "modern aircraft" could do it without needing somone to programme their computer assuming we have people on board who know how to contact the ground via radio using the emergency frequency and/or set the transponder anyway? Not many cabin crew do.

Something for the CRM teams to mull over going forwards......

If said young (or not so young, old farts play flightsim, too) man is a savvy simmer, IMHO he won't even touch let alone grapple with the flight controls, just operate the autopilot, try to establish contact with ground, get someone to talk him slowly through the procedures, with valium-compatible radar vectors and descent instructions to an airport with nice, autoland-permitting weather and a long runway that does not necessitate reverse thrust.

The probability of this working out fine is IMHO larger than that of a terrorist being on board (and considerably smaller than having an airline pilot among the passengers anyway).

BTW, if the recollection of events in the Mayday episode about Aloha Airlines Flight 243 is correct, the CC did ask in the cabin whether there was a pilot on board, not aware that the flight deck crew was luckily still alive and working.

I'm sorry, I wasn't being entirely serious when I said all that :)

This particular fantasy has been doing the rounds with the more hardcore simmers since time began, and I'm never sure that it should be promoted. Millions of people, including me, have at some time installed a sim on a PC and discovered that pulling back on the stick makes the little houses get smaller, and again bigger if you push it. So far, so good, and then we get on with our real lives. The problem is that the more complex sims are systems and procedural trainers rather than simulators of real flight, let alone life on the line: Unfortunately this is not always appreciated. There are any number of threads in R&N that have been polluted by pseudo-technical responses from people who are only employed as Flight Crew in their own minds - PPRuNe anonymity and Ms Flight Sim allows them to feign a a level of knowledge that they do not have.

I suppose that, like all good fantasies, there is a small grain of the possible buried somewhere inside: A lot of Swiss Cheese would need to be involved and aligned.

I'm just not certain that we should encourage them?

Binzer, it wasn't me who said about a doctor, although that is a good suggestion. However, no matter what happened no 1 but myself or the other crew would be entering that f/deck if this scenario happened.

lowcostdolly, I agree. We are not taught how to contact the ground in a scenario such as this. I have been taught by one of our captains during a delay on the ground and occasionally ask, time permitting, to be shown it again. I agree that it is something that should be taught to ALL cabin crew.

first off...if you ask for a doctor who is a pilot...you are likely to lose the whole thing (see V tailed doctor killer).

second, if you are a real flight attendant, your company has a plan in place and it is in your manual.

third, if you have to ask for a pilot in the passenger cabin, ask to see his license (and no frozen atp's!).

but seriously...the HELIOS crash tells it all.

and for one of the best (worst?) movies showing a stewardess landing the airliner...(helped by a doctor!) see the Doris Day film, "JULIE". No joke...get through the whole movie and you will be rewarded.

First question to my mind would be: how did the flight attendant get into the cockpit in the first place? :cool:

Yes, there is no need for pilots ....

Oh my God, hope you are NOT cabin crew:rolleyes:

It's a secret.

Hetfield I never said there was no need for pilots so calm down! And yes I am cabin crew.

@EZYA319

Okay, if you have the opportunity ask the girls/guys up front what it means
"Most modern aircraft can now land themselves anyway."

Kind regards

Ok then hetfield if i'm so wrong with that comment then please explain to me..... I think you may have mis-interpreted what I meant by but as I say please enlighten me!

You're spot on EZY, most modern airliners can land themselves, don't worry about the bruised egos on here.
However the last 30 secs to 1 minute of the flight are where the autoland systems will be looking after you (assuming no part of the system fails..).
It takes a lot of separate systems all working together perfectly to pull off an autoland.
It's getting the aircraft to that point that will be the difficult bit, from the top of my head and in no particular order:
- is the airfield autoland capable (You need a certain type of approach (ILS) which is ideally autoland approved but not a massive issue in an emergency.)
- is this airfield already the programmed destination or are you going to have to work out a diversion?
- what's the weather like? Autoland is more limited by wind speeds (be it crosswinds or tailwinds)
- is the aircraft autoland capable (various things can be wrong with the aircraft meaning it can't autoland, but perfectly safe for normal dispatch)
- can you land in the available landing distance at this airfield? (you may be over maximum landing weight where autoland isn't approved)
- what speed will the final approach be at? What flap setting will need to be set?
- can you work the radio to hopefully get some answers to all these questions from a qualified pilot rustled up by ATC?

All this is before you get to the button pushing required to descend the aircraft, navigate to the final approach, deploy the gear and flaps without ripping them off with excess speed, or stalling and crashing to get yourself to that last minute where the incredibly clever autoland systems take over. And then hope you remembered to set some autobrakes or brake manually or a nice smooth touchdown turns into a flaming wreck at the end of the runway!!

Sorry if I've rambled on, ive just tried to provide another side to the story that the aircraft "lands itself" with a big green LAND NOW button :ok:

Cheers

Thx FREDA

:ok:

STOP PRESS
 

Mythbusters to the rescue, this has been tested, once without help from the ground, once with help from the ground however finding the second part isn't easy, I guess people are only interested in seeing it crash!


Interesting results, not the best video, but funny in places!!

So, unless you can find a jet pilot you're all going to die.
Even a narrow body jet jock manually landing a B747 for the first time is going to thump it in.
Hope that answers the OP's question ;)

can anyone actually think of a time someone other than the regular crew HAD to land the plane? (let's put helios aside as no one landed that plane)

Yes I can. Travelling back from Greece a couple of years ago from my jollies the regular Captain was taken ill. Another Captain employed by the company concerned who was travelling back from his honeymoon flew the plane home and landed it extremly well ;)

His take off was pretty good as well the regular guy was incapcitated on the ground.

EZY319 if we have a double pilot incap at 35,000 unless we have a type rated pilot on board we would be better off doing a PA for a priest. I too know how to contact the ground but do you seriously think a CC would be able to do all what Freda has said in this situation even if advised.

Our ground contact would probably give us lots of very kind reassurance before we either hit the side of a mountain or plough into the drink because we have no pilot sitting at the front to ensure otherwise. That's assuming we are not shot down first if we remotely became a danger to highly populated area's.

I am fellow cabin crew and cringed when I saw your remark about planes landing themselves. They need someone highly trained and qualified to tell them how and when to do this though. Otherwise they will land themselves when they either run out of fuel or hit an obstacle when flying on auto pilot.

We should know how to contact and talk to the ground as that would assist a lone pilot flying the plane. If we don't have that pilot we are screwed in this scenario.

lowcostdolly

didn't you have a copilot who could land the plane?

Ok so the comment I made was obviously taken out of context and apologies if I have offended or people have mis-interpreted what I said.
I am fully aware that it takes someone highly skilled and trained to land an aircraft and that there isn't a big green LAND NOW button.
However, lowcostdolly I think you may under estimate the skills of your fellow crew members. I don't think for one moment we would be 'screwed' in this scenario. When I was originally taught (many years ago) how to contact the ground in said emergency by a captain who had flown for many years and has recently retired I asked him the very same question 'would cabin crew be capable of getting the aircraft safely down with instructions from the ground?'. After much discussion he agreed we would, if the person on the ground knows what they're talking about and the crew member playing captain doesn't lose their cool. As FREDA pointed out there are many factors that could make or break the happy outcome to this scenario, but I stick by my point that I would be wary of letting anyone else into the flight deck to deal with this due to the ever present threat of terrorism.

Indeed we did...he sat in the right hand seat. He wasn't allowed to take off form our departure point without someone sitting in the lefthand seat though. That was my point we had a one pilot incap that happened on the ground.

This thread is about double pilot incap in the air and one of my own CC colleagues thinks this scenario will have happy ending if only we all keep watching the movies and taking the pills......:ugh::eek:

You EZYA319 will not be able to land a 319 safely in this situation, I would lay money on it.

However I'm happy to be corrected by my flight deck colleagues here and open the floor for discussion........

In my career I had a few opportunities to take friends to my simulator sessions, 727, A340, A310, A320.

Among them 4 private pilots with some hundred hours.

None of them was able to land the aircraft in one piece at the 1st attempt.

Conditions:

- aircraft in approach configuration (flaps, gear) on speed
- daylight, unlimited visibilty
- ILS support
- no wind

@hetfield
 

Just out of curiosity: did they try to fly the final approach/landing by hand or to conduct an autoland procedure?

lowcostdolly...the whole point is about landing the plane...if you don't have a captain, you can't takeoff...this means you don't need to land

@armchair

Manual flight.

Thx, not surprised then :).

You'd know of course if there were a company pilot on board? Even if they're traveling off duty or on holiday, I believe that this is standard practice on US airlines.
Next time I'm paxing on an HS748, I must remember to tell the #1 that if the flight crew pegs it, I can fly it.

ezy so once again you go on about terrorists. do you not think a terrorist may have a plan already, or perhaps they all fly around waiting for a double incapacitation. or even someone turns into one just for the hell of it :ugh:. you could always stand behind them with a crash axe and smack em if you don't like what their doing. anyway if you're flying who's gonna get my coffee:p

Yep, that's the point.:ok:

Back to the topic. Emergency scenarios, especially with CC, should be cause related, not academic.

AFAIK, there was never ever a case of both pilots incapacitated.

Yeah 9/11, okay, open the cockpit door for their friends:uhoh:

Only instance of a (PPL) passenger landing a plane I am aware of does not involve a passenger jet but "merely" a King Air: AUDIO: Passenger lands plane after pilot dies during flight » Naples Daily News .

Well, if you like to dicuss cases where toddlers drove a car...

I'm out.

Good bye

My goodness, so many doubters.

The scenario is much the same as Tightslot outlined earlier.

All you need is a young Sean Bean...

I fly the Dash 8 and even with 2 fully conscious and qualified crew I've yet to see anyone do better than smash it into the ground :}