"So, if a disturbed person decides he's really a parrot trapped in a human body, Mac, are you going to start operating, or treating the disturbed condition? Why are you saying 'yes, we have the technology.....we can make you a woman!' when you should be saying 'look mate, you're a bloke!'? Why?"

I agree that there has been discussion as to whether gender dysphoria is a psychiatric rather than a brain structural anomaly. Just as there has been about homosexuality.

Equally, attempts to alter the perceptions of gender dysphorics (and homosexuals) by means of psychological manipulations (operant conditioning etc., etc.) have been singularly unsuccessful. The threat of punishment, torture, and imprisonment (or worse) is ineffective. Just as have simplistic attempts as reason like saying 'look mate, you're a bloke!'.

"Doesn't the head need repairing?" Perhaps; most gender dysphorics (and many homosexuals) would dearly love to be "normal". But this does not seem possible.

"Our control of genetics will eventually give us the power of species realignment." I doubt it, and besides, that is a long way from isospecies gender problems.

"So, if a disturbed person decides he's really a parrot trapped in a human body, Mac, are you going to start operating, or treating the disturbed condition?" No, and that is a reductio ad absurdum as you know full well.

In the end, we may offer selected patients physical gender reassignment because other treatments (apart from 65gm of lead in the back of the head) don't work.

Mac

"Mac, I'm very disturbed by this: you are giving surgery to otherwise healthy bodies to make them something they are not? Please explain." Correct, as I have said. And many people find the thought of this distressing or distasteful.

"I know some people don't have normally formed parts, but I know that most of this surgery is on normal bodies to make them something they are not, but what their perverted desire wants them to be? Is that a correct interpretation?" I'm not happy with your attribution of "perverted desire" to these people. For them, the only perversion is that they should have been born with a physical gender not in concordance with their mental gender. A cruel trick that nature has played on them.

"We are not talking about simple things like breast augmentation- we are talking about changing nature?" Breast augmentation is changing nature - its only a matter of degree. So too is taking antihypertensives or insulin. There are always ethical dilemmas, for example the resuscitation of ultra low-weight babies.

"How do you justify pandering to someone's psychological whims by carrying out unnecessary radical surgery?" It isn't a psychological whim (I wouldn't do it if it was) and surgery is only agreed to after extensive psychological assessment, a prolonged period of living as the other sex and often hormone treatment.

"It's all very well using fancy medical terms to pretend a condition exists, but it doesn't, does it?" Unfortunately it does - just ask the unhappy people with it. There is increasing evidence that this is neither a whim nor a perversion nor a psychological disorder but an inborn error of brain anatomy and neurochemistry.

"If you're so willing to carry out such surgery, why, when I want to be not quite so bald, can I not get society to pay for hair enhancement?" A bit less of the "so willing" if you please but if it truly causes you that much distress then perhaps society should.

Mac

betpump5

You might need to relearn that lesson as many of them have this removed.

As long as he/she is able to operate a door in an evacuation and evacuate approx. 30 people (CASA requirements; 1 F/A to every 30 passengers), there shouldn't be a problem. Safety is always the number 1 priority.

"Mac's statement in the 2nd para posting 15 beginning 'Essentially.....' REALLY needs some examining."

What I said was; "Essentially, the physical (somatic) and chromosomal gender is at odds with the mental gender." Since this is the fairly undeniable essence of the problem, I am somewhat at a loss to know how this can be examined further, REALLY or otherwise.

"I questioned the ethics of surgeons carrying out transgender operations given it is mostly a psychological condition."

It isn't "given" at all. As I stated, the evidence is that this is no more a psychological condition than homosexuality and it is certainly no more amenable to psychotherapy. Would you suggest that homosexuals should receive treatment in an attempt to convert them to heterosexuality? This has certainly been exhaustively attempted with a conspicuous lack of success (though not without inflicting much suffering).

The ethics of carrying out gender reassignment procedures can indeed be debated, but arguably are no more complex than breast enlargement or the use of analgesics for pain (the ethics of which were intensely debated by some when anaesthetics were introduced).

These sort of discussions are really only useful if the protagonists are willing to entertain viewpoints other than those with which they entered the debate rather than attempt to impose theirs on others. Your viewpoint is neither exceptional or novel and the small arguments that you make I have heard and considered many times, only to reject them on evidentiary grounds. You might care to consider testimony from those intimately concerned with the management of these unfortunate people and, as any reasonable person might do, modify your views in the direction of tolerance at least.


Mac

Gosh, I've opened a right can of worms here, but thanks to all those who replied - even those whose replies were less than charitable.

The fact of the matter is, quite simply, that my friend exists. She is now a woman; she is a human being - and a very decent human being - who has a right to make her life as successful as she can, just like any human being should be able to do. She accepts, as she has had experience of this, that there will always be regressives and conservatives who question that right and indeed, her right to be a full member of society.

It is good that there is now legal precedent, as well as legislative provisions, which now give her protection, and thankfully, the vast majority of people are accepting and understanding. I hope she will - and will strongly encourage her to - pursue her dreams. She deserves success, as do all who have fought prejudice and discrimination.

There is a transgender lady at my airline. I have always known her as a woman, and had I not known that she was born in the body of a man, I would never have guessed. There is nothing masculine about her, neither in the physical (any more) nor in the psychological (never has been) department. Achieving the physical part was no joke, more of the opposite actually. Being born in the wrong body, the wrong gender must be something close of a nightmare to begin with. I cannot see a reason why someone should go through the pain, the trouble ad the hassle of changing gender if their situation weren't unbearable. And even after the operations and the tons of pills she had to (an still does) swallow, there is always someone who, out of morbid curiosity, ignorance, bigotry or preconception, has to remind her that she had the misfortune of being born in the wrong body. Really, I cannot understand why some people feel entitled to judge the sexuality of others, if those are adults who have every right to decide for themselves.
If some people feel uncomfortable being around transgender persons, it is their problem. Or maybe we should hide from view all the people who make us uncomfortable? Is it not more rational that it is the people who are affected with psychological rigidity and ignorance who seek professional help to stop feeling uncomfortable around homosexuals or transgender persons? Feeling uncomfortable about what adult persons do with their life, without hurting anyone, only because they follow their nature? To be honest, I'm sure I would feel much, much more uncomfortable in the presence of narrow minded people and think about them that they ''should be grounded until they are stable again'' and that ''the company that employs the above narrow minded individual is doing itself no favors with its customers '' :E

Heard a RUMOR long time ago that thai airways cabin crew has lots of transexual crew. Not sure if it's true or not.

You're normally right, but.........
 

Rainboe - you are often, if not normally, right in your clearly expressed views.
I have to say that you are just plain wrong in this thread.
I know 2 pilots - one a Training Capt., and the other a moderately senior captain who have made the switch from male to female successfully.

I'm glad it wasn't me..........I would hate to be in their shoes, and I continue to wish them all the best.

If you don't like it, that's fine, but don't expect others to agree with you - you're just plain wrong.

I did it !
 

Hello everybody, I discover ur website today :ok:I have been a "steward" at AF for more than 10 years, and then I transitioned in 2001. I should have ben fired. BUT, the French Civil Aviation decided that it was a descrimination. So they gave me back my "CSS" (Certificate of Safety and Security) that you need to be a flight attendant in France and AF could not fire me :ok:Then, after 18 monthes at home, I went back to flights. A real nightmare !
You can go and visit my webstite : Carnet De Bord d'Un Steward Devenu Hôtesse de l'Air
or check on GOOGLE "Andrea COLLIAUX". I was the first flight attendant to be a TS in France. Imagine :eek: I still do have many problems due to descrimination. It's not easy sometimes. I'm on the European network flights. I was told I'll never be a purser and it was better to be in an aircraft than a prostitute at the Bois de Boulogne...:\ Anyhow, I'm married, and so happy in my life. I'm a fan of Pam Ann and I'm on FaceBook too if you want to see my page. Love, Andréa.:ok:

Air France
 

Hello everyone. I'm a TS air-hostess at Air France. I transitionned at the age of 35. I'm now 43. I've been a steward for 10 years and now an air-hostess till 2001. It's not "easy", but I still have my job, travelling all over Europe and I'm quite happy about this.:) Of course, sometimes people (other Flight Attendants) are very mean to me, but I don't care :mad:. You can visit my blog on the address below. I speak french, english, and italian.:ok:So, love me or hate me, I don't care ! Life is great and made me so gorgeous moments to live that I'll never have regrets about my sex-change. Love to all the TS flight attendants of the world, maybe we could create an association !
Love, Andréa.

No, I tried to resist as it gets me into so much trouble, but I can't fight it. Can we be clear, you have not 'sex-changed'. Your sex is determined by your chromosomes. You can look like Angelina Jolie, but if your chromosomes are XY or XX, that decides your sex. I'm sorry, but the fact that you may be convinced yourself that 'deep down, you really are a woman, you should have been born a woman', and a Doctor has doctored certain bits to produce a new appearance, it does not mean you have changed gender. You are what your chromosomes say you are.

I have thinning hair. I can't go pretending I have a bonnet like Ozzie Osbourne. I can wear a wig, but it doesn't make me hairy. Likewise you can dress like a woman, you can talk like a woman, you can change your body to be like a woman, you can walk into lady's toilets, but what are you deep inside? What nature specified with your chromosomes. If I was to marry you expecting to be married to a woman, it is likely I would want my money back. You may look, talk, walk and dress like a woman, but willing yourself to change does not redefine yourself as a she, her, female. You are what nature intended nevertheless.

We have to understand the point that our definition of sex (as in gender) goes deeper in nature than simply changing our appearance medically or superficially.

I am sorry, but I see it no more convincing than Priscilla, Queen of the Desert- a hugely enjoyable and entertaining film.

RAINBOE

I note you state you are very disturbed, I fully agree with you YOU are very disturbed.

If you are a pilot I amazed you managed to pass psychological tests with your warped attitude. I hope I never have the misfortune to fly in the back of an aircraft you are the pilot of because I could not trust your judgements.

Can I have a go? Oooo thank you..;)

Rainboe, it somehow pains me to agree with you but I have to. From every angle, you are absolutely 100% right in your physiological argument.

Now, do we feel better? Has it given us a warm feeling of satisfaction that maybe we have proved our point?
On the other hand, would it really ruin the rest of our lives if we reached out to a fellow human being and said "Yes, you look like a woman, you act like a woman and you have physically committed yourself to being a woman. On that basis, you deserve our respect and we are happy for your happiness because in this crazy world of violence and greed, someone at peace with themselves is a truly precious gift?"

May l also ?

Ooh ta.

He is right in his argument full stop. Resulting opinions differ which is the point surely?
l would be surprised if Rainbow gets pleasure from his logic.

Off thread, excuse me, the most sorry sight l`ve seen with man/woman interfering with nature was an arab lady c/a pumped full of God knows what for Olympic shot putting competition as a child. Years later she looks like Desperate Dan`s big brother but still, as she should, goes shopping for "frillies".
Make of that what you will.

ttfn.

Once you are beyond a certain age this subject becomes, difficult. However being old and grumpy has meant that I have had to deal with it.

My financial advisor. He was a star. He advised my mum and dad, and he provided superb advice. He is now a she. She is still a star. But I do struggle. I use to shake his hand, but I just cannot bring myself to kiss her on both cheeks.

But. I still like her. She is incredibly brave. And more than that, still does a superb job. Who am I to judge her?

God bless Rainboe. Sometimes you have to grit your teeth, and get on with it.

If they've got mental tranquility by changing their appearance and settling into a mindset that they are a different sex, then who can think that wrong? I am happy for them if that makes them happy. But it concerns me that though they may now convincingly look like a woman, if they are now referred to as 'she' then this is actually fooling people who don't know- is it morally right to deceive people? It's a human society thing, but we like to know who we are dealing with, with honesty, male or female. Sex appearance change is fine, but not deception, and I don't think it correct to refer to people who have changed their appearance as 'she'. There are many things that can be changed, but it must be accepted that actual he and she are untouchable. Which leads us to should it be acceptable for actual males to use ladies toilets? Maybe it should- I would be very disconcerted standing there happily using a male toilet to have an apparent lady stand next to me, but would ladies be fine with an actual male using their cubicles? And aren't ladies loos overcrowded anyway?

Perhaps what I personally find most disturbing is medical staff carrying out disturbing medical procedures with fancy names to change otherwise healthy for (what I regard as) unethical reasons. It seems to me to have parallels with the awful old procedure of carrying out lobotomies to treat schizophrenia.

I realise my views are not regarded well, so having stated my position, I intend bowing out here. I hope we can all think a little more next time next time we so freely use the expression 'she' when we are actually talking about a male very well disguised.

Rainboe

we meet again.

2 questions:

1. Have you been to Andrea's website via the link?

2. Would you say no?

I agree with you on one point. Surgery changes nothing. Once a man, always a man.